Cor I feel like I am a really bad mother that lets her kids rebel over all authority :o :o :o :o Honestly I am not!!! I am actually a very strict mother!!!
I only asked a question!!!
And interestingly enough I spoke to my dad about this today , my dad, who is a stickler for authority and didnt let my brother have long hair or anything unusual unttil he was 16 and was very very strict, actually agrees with me on this one!!!! LOL
I thought he would say why should he have long hair and have a go about me letting him grow it!!! but he didnt LOL
On friday he will go in and have his hair thinned and trimmed ready for scout camp, so it is tidy.
I will keep getting it trimmed and thinned and make sure he keeps it tidy and out of his eyes, and see what happens.
I still do believe that as the girls are allowed to wear trousers but boys meant tohave conventional collar length style IS sexist!!!!
And as someone said, if all girls had to have long hair there would be an uproar!!!!
I just feel, yet again, the bad kids have spoilt it for the good kids, and it is actually the good kids that are being punished so it sets an example to the bad kids that should no better anyway!!!! :o :O
Lea :)

Lea,
It is obviously something that we all feel strongly about. This is post 102 the most I have noted so far!!

i'm sorry was the comment about not having much to worry about to me or children? if me i assure you that your quite wrong. and what do most teenagers have to worry about? exams, girlfriends/boyfriends and often little else, thankfully as they should not have adult cares at that age.

> A lot of kids today are too obssessed with the way they look and what they wear ..yet another reason for everyone to look more or less the same

oh come on, its not just teenagers that are vain. does that mean that we should all go around in matching outfits? have regulation hair cuts?
there is nothing wrong with having pride or initerest in your appearence (though there is of course a point to far). We live in a society that emphasises the self, the individual. Adolesents are going through a formative part of their life that will forever effect the nature of their adulthood and something as simple as personal style can have an enormous impact. it can help define groups of friends, present interests to new people they meet who in turn may influence their interests future and so their lifestyle.

for example, myself in my mosher/goth youth became close to other mosher/gothy people or alternative people. each of these friends was as it turned out from a similar middle class proffesional background with liberal values and strong work ethics. this rubbed off on lazy me and i did better at school and subsequently university for it.

and i'd says thats the parents responsibility to teach avoiding vanity, not the schools responsibility to dictate.

>i'd says thats the parents responsibility to teach avoiding vanity

Ahhh ..and there we have it ....I agree with you :) However, a lot of parents don't! (Lea ..NOT talking about you :) :) )

Besides which, vanity is not exactly what I was talking about :) Being obsessed with the way they look and the labels they wear isn't necessarily vanity ..more keeping up with the Jones' .Just look at the rise in so called 'celebrity magazines' ..pride in your appearance is a good thing ..and being individual is a good thing ..when it is in your own time (speaking as an old hippy :) ) but during school time, stick to the rules :) By all means try and change the rules if you feel they are wrong, but do that properly, lobbying and getting signatures, not by anarchy ;)

It's about identity.  Children like to part of a group which is why by the time they get to teens most are dressing like their friends.  Perhaps the idea behind the rules is that children should be identifying with the school and not outside influences (trends of the day).

The schools have to draw the line somewhere and the lines do get moved from time to time but they have to try and suit the majority.

When my son was at school there was this silly trend for the boys to shorten the top layer (fat bit) of their ties leaving the longer bit ridiculously long and tucked inside the shirt.  I told him it looked stupid but he and many others started to adopt this trend until the top part was about 3" long (rolleseyes) and the school had to bring in a new school rule on how long to tie your tie.  :-D

All I can say is my niece (from a mixed background) was hounded out of school by people who put notes in her bag calling her a a "black bitch" " go back where you came from". Which was about 2 miles away. That is discrimination. She finished her GCSE's at home as we could not sort out why her sun tanned appearance was such a problem to the white folks, Im white by the way!!!!!!!!
Short hair sex discrimination - ???  Go for it well all have kids with no respect for any type of authority but the PC brigade will be happy words fail me.........

Well yes possibly on the face of it this is a relatively trivial topic to cause such debate. But I just started to think, on a personal level why does it concern me? Well remembering being a teenager (seems quite a long time ago!) I was very concerned to make my own choices regarding my appearance - it was about forging my own identity when no one seemed to listen to me or treat me as an individual. In my case there were complicated emotional issues but I wanted to say 'please notice I am different and have a mind of my own' - then because I felt so denied such choices I had to control my body shape instead, leading to an eating disorder. It was all I felt I had control over. So I really think - listen to young people, let them have some control over their own body image, try to discuss not dictate, and they won't need to rebel against authority anyway!

Whistler your neice was subjected to race discrimination that is different to sex descrimination and just because in this instance your neice was subjected to a very hurtfull descrimination does not make sex descrimination petty.
As a woman I am very gratefull for the fact that sex descrimination is now an issue that should not be happening - I am allowed to vote, I am entitled to apply for the same jobs as men etc....
Sex descrimination is where you are not allowed/stopped/hindered to do something because of your gender - no other reason, just your sex, if a boy is not allowed to have short hair, but a girl is, it is SEX DESCRIMINATION.

>Go for it well all have kids with no respect for any type of authority but the PC brigade will be happy words fail me.........

I broke rule after rule at school where uniforms were concerned, yet I achieved all my qualification in school (including A-levels in the 6th form), I have never been in trouble with the police, I am one of the most polite people you would ever meet, but I will not stand for descrimination of any kind, no matter how small.

Whistler would you be happy having to cut your hair short, simply because of your gender? I know I wouldn't.

The OP's son is a very respectfull pupil (I believe from reading the OPs posts), he simply would like to grow his hair long, it wil not turn him into a disrespectfull, hooligan......... I wonder if the Judge in court wears a long wig to make him look like a hooligan to intimidate or to look traditionally more respectfull?

> So I really think - listen to young people, let them have some control over their own body image, try to discuss not dictate, and they won't need to rebel against authority anyway!

Weel said Honeybee :)

> I wonder if the Judge in court wears a long wig to make him look like a hooligan to intimidate or to look traditionally more respectfull?

Judges wear wigs because it's part of their uniform ;-) ..... but not for long .... Judges ditch wigs.

I think it's to make them look more like everybody else and therefore less intimidating.

> I think it's to make them look more like everybody else and therefore less intimidating.

Yep, thats what I said 'to look traditionally more respectful'. I was asking the question hypothetically as I get the impression from Whistlers post that she thinks long haired men are not repspectfull, yet long hair (or wigs) were a status symbol, it would only be the polite members of society who wore the wigs, hence them being used in court as 'smart dress'.

> Judges wear wigs because it's part of their uniform ;-) ..... but not for long..

I didn't think the new rule applied to the high court, but (skimming the article) it does!

I had to I sat on my hair and it was cut short in boarding school because of nits!!
Sex descrimination is not the same as rules and regulations, you are confusing things by picking up on small items of rules that schools set.
In the army males have short hair females are allowed long why? thats the rules if you dont sign up to that rule leave and go somewhere else. Whats the problem?
I have male cousins who are nurses their wear trousers nurses female wear skirts its acceptable practice and not sexual descrimination. we will not go to nuns in convents and monks in monestries ect. Sex differences are NOT ALL DESCRIMINATION.
Get a hold of the law and read it before you declare unilateral war against frocks, hair, earrings and hair dye. As I said what ever makes you happy.

> In the army males have short hair females are allowed long why?

Oh well then, lets make all the school boys cut thier hair short and issue them all with guns! I think the army is slightly different (allthough I believe that women in the army should have to adhere to the same hair-rules as men), people CHOOSE to sign up for the army I would have thought that the hair-rules are there for health, safety, ease of up-keep ets.... I would have thought that a man on the front-line of battle may get into difficulties if his flowing locks of hair got caught in his gun & jammed it (women not-yet allowed to fight on the front-line). What's the worst that could happen to a school boy - he could get his pony-taile pulled, as the girls manage to cope with the 'dangers' of long-hair ion school, I'm sure the boys could.

>I have male cousins who are nurses their wear trousers nurses female wear skirts its acceptable practice and not sexual descrimination.

I imagine that the girls at the school in question wear different clothes than the boys - the uniform is not the issue here.

>we will not go to nuns in convents and monks in monestries ect.

that is just being silly,  they choose to live as they do, it is how they commit to thier religious vows it is NOT forced upon them.

>Get a hold of the law and read it before you declare unilateral war against frocks, hair, earrings and hair dye

direct discrimination - when you are treated unfairly because of your sex
indirect discrimination - when conditions that appear to apply to everyone actually discriminate against you on the grounds of your sex.

In a school, girls are allowed long hair - boys must have short hair - how can that not be descrimination on the grounds of sex???????

>people CHOOSE to sign up for the army

Parents CHOOSE to send their children to a school with rules ...

Sexual descrination is by law when sex's are treated unfairly its to do with equal pay, equal rights under the law, equal rights with regard to housing ect read it it does not list hair length, piercings (ears) ect. You are confusing stereotyping boys have short hairs girls have long ect.. It aint descrimination under the law. Thats what I am saying, and believe me girls can now join Scouts but Scoiuts cant join Guides and thats not considered discrimination either!! Honestly its just rules, rules that schools set for their own regulations not descrimination thats all I am saying.
And there isnt anything silly about nuns and monks thats rules as well.
No one is forcing young man in question to go to that school, his mum & possibly dad sign him up to it and if it does not fit him now sign him into a set of rules he/she/them do agree to its simple, buts its not sexual discrimination accordings to Sexual discrimination Act 1975 (SDA) which is mainly about MONEY.
I should know as i have read the damn thing!! Its about money, housing and things that matter to life and living in UK in the 21st century if predominatly you are female.

We have just been bought out,  our new Company want a company image. Today we were issued with a Uniform  Requirement Document, it is stricter than the kids had at school, we have even been told what font to use on our correspondence!!!!

I don't even meet Joe Public, I sit in my own little office all day. The only person from the outside world I see is the window cleaner!!!

Next they will say I can't go on "champdogs" !!!

We dress our guys as well, even I have polo shirts with our logo, its company policy to wear corporate clothing. The only good thing is your own clothes do not get ruined.
Is the window cleaner nice?

I can see the benefits of a uniform save oddles of money.
Possibility if an extra  10 mins  in bed in the morning.

The window cleaner likes a chat!

i quite agree but who is suggesting anarchy? whats the right way if having your mother approach the school about it is the wrong way? i don;t think leas suggesting rioting in the corridors

and kids will try to 'keep up with the jones' no matter what the uniform is, different black shoes, ties worn oddly etc. my cousins school were very strict and the kids did this

> buts its not sexual discrimination accordings to Sexual discrimination Act 1975 (SDA) which is mainly about MONEY.
> I should know as i have read the damn thing!! Its about money, housing and things that matter to life and living in UK in the 21st century if predominatly you are female.

Somebody should inform the CAB of that then :
They say "It is unlawful to discriminate on grounds of sex in:-

employment and training
education
the provision of goods and services, for example, financial matters, entertainment and transport
housing
advertisements."

and

"It is unlawful for a state or private educational establishment to discriminate in its admission policies, unless it is a single sex establishment."

Yet a school can admit a GIRL with long hair but not a BOY??????? - sex descrimination!

It does not say hair, pierceings and clothing it says education is the same, it does not mention the other bits read it before you sprout it. Its on the web under equality, short hair is not an equality issues. honestly have a look yourself................. If you don't believe me. sex descrimination act 1975 (SDA) and CAB are not always right either. You will not find a list of clothing ect. in the act its trivial education means male & female get the same schooling, the same rights ect apart from single sex schools, why dont they accept other sex's then? surly thats descrimination READ IT YOURSELF.

Perhaps we should turn this on it's head ('scuse pun) and say that girls should not be allowed to wear their hair below the collar? 

> education means male & female get the same schooling

but should a boy at this school have long hair he may be suspended or expelled and then is being denied his right to education based on a descriminatory decision

Possibility if an extra  10 mins  in bed in the morning.

The window cleaner likes a chat!

Are these two comments related? :)

> We have just been bought out,  our new Company want a company image. Today we were issued with a Uniform  Requirement Document, it is stricter than the kids had at school, we have even been told what font to use on our correspondence!!!!
>
> I don't even meet Joe Public, I sit in my own little office all day. The only person from the outside world I see is the window cleaner!!!
>
> Next they will say I can't go on "champdogs" !!!

And you must not challenge but accept the new rules ;-)

Just another thought to throw a spanner in the works.
James' form teacher,who they keep all the way through the school years, a lovely guy aged 28/29(dont ask me how I know that LMAO)teaches Tech has LONG hair!!!! that he doesnt wear tied back!!!!! LOL
So the teachers do not have the same rules as the kids !!!!!!
And no I am not planning a mass bra swinging rally through the school halls LMAO
Lea :)

>So the teachers do not have the same rules as the kids !!!!!!

I bet the teachers don't have to play sports either.

They're teachers, not pupils. They're adults, not children. There are some advantages to being grown up!

>but should a boy at this school have long hair he may be suspended or expelled and then is being denied his right to education based on a descriminatory decision

Only if he was expelled from the only school in the country, and home schooling was illegal.

>education means male & female get the same schooling

Yes. The law is there to make sure that both sexes are taught the same subjects and therefore given an equal opportunity in Life.

If everything had to be the same for boys and girls in schools then single-sex toilets, changing rooms and showers would be illegal, and I'm sure nobody thinks that would be a good idea!

Possibility if an extra  10 mins  in bed in the morning.

The window cleaner likes a chat!

Are these two comments related

HA HA,,, very good  !!

> Perhaps we should turn this on it's head ('scuse pun) and say that girls should not be allowed to wear their hair below the collar? 

Yes, I said similar in an earlier post - wouldn't there be trouble then!!!! How many parents (and girls thierselfs) would accept girls  having to have short hair because the school says so, especially if boys were allowed long hair?

>> So the teachers do not have the same rules as the kids !!!!!!
> I bet the teachers don't have to play sports either.
>
> They're teachers, not pupils. They're adults, not children. There are some advantages to being grown up!

That would be a fair statement if the short hair rule applied to both boys & girls, but it doesn't - girls are free to have long hair (just like an adult male teacher) but the boys aren't.

> Its on the web under equality, short hair is not an equality issues.

Anything is an equality issue - if 1 gender is not allowed to do the same as the other gender (where it is biologically/physically possible for both genders to do the same) then it is discrimination.

> You will not find a list of clothing ect. in the act its trivial education means male & female get the same schooling, the same rights

how come girls have THE RIGHT to have long hair but boys don't???

Today "A prestigious school" has asked for "fake jaffas", that to me and you is, fake tans ,to be banned for young GIRLS!!

Debate.............

and if his parents were not in the position to home school? or all the local schools had this rule? and if the other schools see fit to allow the pupils to make their own decisions about their appearence then why doesn't this one?

cinsider this, if an employer you'd been working for for a while said to you that they no longer liked the way you hd your hair and you had to cut it i doubt you'd be best pleased.

I personally think to keep to the school code is acceptable, my daughter goes to a select school and sometimes I think some of their rules are over the top but I go with them as it's the rules of the school.  She goes to an all girls select school and her uniform is a very strict part of her being there.  She has to have her tie done up at all times, even if she comes shopping say to the supermarket with me after school and we end up staying out and it's 6pm, her uniform has to be as it should be in school and can get reported if this is not so.  (she always rushes home to change!).  They are not allowed in certain areas of the town during lunchtimes and never allowed to be seen eating chips etc., through the town.  There are lots more which I can't think of right now but it's not done her any harm, she doesn't go up town at lunchtime, she has a packed lunch, comes home before going anywhere.  As it's a girls school not sure about long hair on boys, I have two boys but they never wanted long hair so wasn't an issue for me.

I do know some of her classmates have been in trouble and told to grow out highlights etc., again she's not had her hair coloured or like

>Today "A prestigious school" has asked for "fake jaffas", that to me and you is, fake tans ,to be banned for young GIRLS!!

Debate.............

I'll see your debate and raise it with .....

One minority group want to adopt Shari'a Law besides the British Legal System.  The would mean that some laws that apply to most would not apply to all and vice versa. 

Debate ......

> If everything had to be the same for boys and girls in schools then single-sex toilets, changing rooms and showers would be illegal, and I'm sure nobody thinks that would be a good idea! <IMG alt=eek src="/images/eek.gif">

thats a totally different issue, privacy is not discrimination unless one group are given mroe than the other.

same in my day.
school rules are made to be broken by pupiles always have been and always will be.

>Today "A prestigious school" has asked for "fake jaffas", that to me and you is, fake tans ,to be banned for young GIRLS!!

Because it's the girls wearing it not the boys. 

The difference between the fake tan being banned and the long hair being banned is that the hair length rule was already in place as far as I can tell.

> Today "A prestigious school" has asked for "fake jaffas", that to me and you is, fake tans ,to be banned for young GIRLS!!
>
> Debate.............

Ohhhh...tricky one, on the 1 hand the fake tan could be classed as 'make-up/cosmetic' type product which it seems fair to ban, but on the other hand - isn't it discrimination on the grounds of the colour of your skin?
Ok, so fake tan is not the natural colour of your skin, but it is a safer alternative to basking in the sun all summer and getting a real tan.
But I think if this is on about primary school children (rather than teenagers) then there is no argumant - ban it.

Woop woop this will put the cat amongst the pigeons!!!!

Rules are rules aren't they?

Don't you think kids need to learn to respect authority these days? Society would break down without the law of the land. Indeed in some places were people have no respect for the law, this is already happening. Kids need to learn to conform and obey even if they privately don't 'agree' because it's against their 'rights'.

I agree some school rules seem petty, but I don't agree with parents undermining the authority of teachers and other adults, I think that's a very foolish thing to do. School rules are there for a purpose. Just like the law. Obey or suffer the consequences.

Kids need boundaries.

BTW, I am not a religious zealot, a teacher, a policeman nor a judge. I am just a mum.

OK...running for cover................!!

if its a decent fake tan then they shouldnt notice it is fake ;)

One minority group want to adopt Shari'a Law besides the British Legal System.  The would mean that some laws that apply to most would not apply to all and vice versa.

I know very little about Sharia Law,  Isn't the death penalty, stoning of an adulturous female, including rape victim, cutting off hands of thieves some things they adhere too?
Religious diversity, yes, but their own laws ?

Mind you chopping of thieving hands does not sound such a bad idea.

You wouldn't mind then that people coming to settle in this country could reject the laws of this country in favour of laws that they consider suit them?

I haven't joined this debate up until now because I really couldn't answer Lea's question as to whether it is sexist or not?

Girls are allowed to wear hair long, so I couldn't use the arguement that long hair in boys could be a safety hazzard as they would just need to tie it back for home economics, PE, wood work etc, (I know they don't call it that now :-D ) so I could not think of a suitable argument why boys should not have longer hair.

I still can not answer whether it is sexist, but just what I like myself, and that is boys with short hair, in a school uniform, to me it says well behaved and in a good school, can't say why I think that I just do and I've grown up believing that neat and tidy boys gives the impression of a good school, seeing children in school with long or coloured hair would make me run from that school thinking it had no order or authority. I feel the same in work places, first appearances count, it is probably something instilled from childhood but it is what I think.

I also fully expect those boys when in Uni to have longer hair for some reason, so perhaps it is not sexist just socially expected, a way for a boy to show he no longer lives under authoritarian figures.

Longer hair for some reasons just screams out no longer under authority and a bit wild, again I have no reasoning behind that, but it is just the impression I'm left with.

In times gone by men did have long hair, (stoneage, Robin Hood :-D ) perhaps that is it, that in modern society long hair feels like a throw back, with the same attitudes, whereas short gives a more intellectual feel.

Waffling I know, but long hair on a boy just says they have no authority figures, can't explain why????  Just does. 

>cinsider this, if an employer you'd been working for for a while said to you that they no longer liked the way you hd your hair and you had to cut it i doubt you'd be best pleased.

But that's not the issue here, is it? The rule is already in place, and not being changed. If I applied for a job and was told that I'd have to have short (or long) hair, then if I didn't agree with that I wouldn't take the job, even if I was offered it. I wouldn't accept the job and then complain about the rule ...

> Waffling I know, but long hair on a boy just says they have no authority figures, can't explain why????&nbsp; Just does.&nbsp;

That's how I feel.  It is all about what is conventional and requiring the children to observe the convention and I really don't think that is too much to ask of children.  There is plenty of time in adult life to to a non conformist :-) but during childhood they are dependent on adults to make sensible decisions on their behalf and to that end some discipline is required to ensure children continue to accept that until they reach their full age of reason.
On a side note, although as girls we could have our hair long, in my school it did have to be secured if more than shoulder length either in a pony tail if short or more often plaits (my mother had four sets of plaits to do each morning :-)).  I'm good with having those rules apply to the boys :-D

Cheryl ,

You wouldn't mind then that people coming to settle in this country could reject the laws of this country in favour of laws that they consider suit them?

That is so not what I said, ,Religious diversity, yes, but their own laws ? May be I should have added , NO, not the question mark.
IMO
If people do not wish to live by the laws of our country, may be they should choose to settle elsewhere. Believe in their own God by all means and honour their traditions (with in the law),I respect that, BUT  they must respect my law any my traditions as well.