Hi

I bred a litter 3 years ago and had a call from someone who had a bitch.  Anyway owner said "she has dropped early".  

Thing is bitch has breeding and endorsements on her and owner signed a contract.

Apparently it was an 'accidental mating' with her male.  She now has a litter of 13 Dobermanns and she doesnt know the vWD status, PHPV status etc of sire or dam (dam is either vWD Clear or Carrier)...

I am fuming!!!!!!! 

Don't sign the paperwork over to allow her to breed from!  She'll have to sell them then non-KC registered.

I also know someone who had a genuine accidental mating so is it at all possible that this is true??

I would insist that the health checks be carried out NOW on both the sire and dam, I presume there are DNA tests.  If they are done through AHT and the owner rings when they are sent sometimes they can hurry things through.  The pups won't be ready for leaving for a good few weeks so therefore I would say there is ample time.

If these came back showing the pups were clear I would then consider lifting the endorsement.

Only you can really tell whether this "could" be a genuine accident.

I too would be cross but at least she rang and told you, if you don't help her now who knows what her plans are with the bitch!

Vicky x

Once the endorsements are lifted they cannot be put back on and further litters can then be registered.  This may not be acceptable to the OP.  Fitness to breed is not simply a question of passing health tests I would say.

Yeah but will she??
I can almost Gurantee these pups will be on the net soon enough boasting KC reg parents and therefore they MUST be KC too right? Convienantly forgetting she broke a contract and the pups are not worth half the amount they should be to get the homes they deserve :( :(

I would keep a close eye on her and maybe ask to visit the pups regualrly a good excuse is its because their from your bitch just to make sure she is doing right and this lady is actully prepared for this apparant accidental mating!! Also why didnt she get the morning after pill for the bitch??!

I know its not your fault and Im not ragging you at all as you had the contracts etc and did everything right, but its more puppies that arent health tested for people to buy, I hope she tells buyers the truth about how they came about and what the potential risks and heartbreaks are of buying untested pups :(

Why do these people not use the vets for a misalignment jab to prevent the pregnancy going further, after all on a non breeding bitch any problems related to later fertility would be moot?

I'd be like you absolutely fuming and make sure I'd notified the KC with a copy of her sign on the contract showing she knows about the endorsements to ensur she can't register the litter.

Fitness to breed is not simply a question of passing health tests I would say Ditto Ditto and Ditto..  It drives me crackers when the only conditions sometimes put on a bitch is that she passes the health tests, forgetting that she may be so poorly constructed she couldn't do a days work..

Not directed to posted just commenting on Isabel's rightly put comments :-D

To say nothing of temperaments of the sire and dam! :-( Especially when a large guarding breed is involved! I too would be furious!

This may be extreme but I would probably go over and take the pups off her once their old enough.

If she isnt able to stop 2 dogs from mating and see the error of her ways IE get the bitch a morning after pill, then she isnt going to have the common sense to raise a little of guard dogs to be well ajusted SAFE adults, also any bad tidings from this litter IE unregistered litters, bad temperaments of the pups from being bred with who knows what dog etc may come back to the poster who is completely innocent and doesnt deserve it.

Sounds extreme I know but I seriously doubt she will raise the litter well  or more importantly give them to the right solid homes with owners who appreciate the dangers and responsibilities of owning and training guard dogs so I would ask if I could have them once their old enough to leave their mum.
Also she should be willing to give them up as she wasnt wanting the litter and if she doesnt then £££££ areprobably the reason she allowed this ''accidental'' litter to carry on :(

> Sounds extreme

Sounds rather illegal too.

LOL I didnt mean steal them Isabel :)

I meant take them from her so they are raised properley with her consent, she would hopefully see its best, as to be unprepared or unknowing of a litter of dobes that big is alot for most credited expieranced breeders, let alone someone with no expierance or knowledge.

I suppose you could offer to take them off her but then what?  13 unregistered, unhealth tested parentage puppies to find appropriate homes for.  I think a better course of action would be to encourage her see sense and have all but a couple PTS but I know that makes a lot of people squeamish.

If I was a breeder I would take them and as I would have reared litters before I would dedicate my all to ensure they were reared correctly, trainined and socialised.

And before anyone says that cant be done, yes it can if you have the time and patience and more important understanding.
if I was in her situation I would ask for the pups or at least half of them so I knew they were safe and well.

Putting to sleep healthy dogs is barbaric theres so many more ways to do things rather then just removing the problem in my eyes and that is my view and i dont care what anyone else says.

>And before anyone says that cant be done, yes it can if you have the time and patience and more important understanding.

And money, of course. And seeing that one should never buy a puppy without seeing it with its mother, you'd have to have the bitch as well ....

You could say the pups are from a bitch in your lines and show them proof of the bitches pedigree and explain what happened and the situation.
Im sure most would be very impressed I had saved the litter and was rehoming off my own back and not simply left her to it or had them culled.

I plan to breed my staffords one day when Ive been showing etc and if this situation happened to me I would have them in a flash no matter the number and if I had to have Tesco ecomony bread for a while so be it, im willing to sacrifice my luxerys for a while if it means my dogs get super homes, maybe others just dont see their pups are worth scrimping or putting themselves out for a while which I think is very very sad :(
At least I could rest easy knowing their safe in good homes and not fretting over who has them and where they are.

People need to see that pups are not disposible and you cant simply wash your hands of responsibilitys when it comes to dogs youve bred needing help or people youve sold pups too needing help too!

>Putting to sleep healthy dogs is barbaric theres so many more ways to do things rather then just removing the problem in my eyes and that is my view and i dont care what anyone else says.

Taking note of the breed, the amount of puppies, the fact they are not health tested and unable to be registered I would say the kindest thing would be to put to sleep the majority of them.  They will be difficult to sell, by selling them cheap they will potentially end up in the wrong homes and those not sold will most probably end up in rescue or being put to sleep at an early age. If the breeder takes them she is no more likely to sell them and she will be left with a bunch of adolecent dobes with no choice but to have them put to sleep.  Much kinder and responsible to put them to sleep now.

Excellent post, ClaireyS.

why thank you :)

You could say the pups are from a bitch in your lines and show them proof of the bitches pedigree and explain what happened and the situation.
Im sure most would be very impressed I had saved the litter and was rehoming off my own back and not simply left her to it or had them culled.

And what would you do if you only managed to sell 3 and were left with ten? The RIGHT kind of buyer will usually NOT buy a pup from untested parents. Sure, you can test them. First off, any hip scores are NOT likely to come back in time for the pups to be sold -nor can you take a bitch away from newborn pups and have her x-rayed. Secondly, what happens it the results are bad? I had this happen to me when I had my one and only accidental mating (from parents of different breeds). I couldn't possibly get the health tests done in time. This put off several buyers. When the test results eventually came back, weeks after the pups had been sold (all but two that I had to keep as there were not enough good homes available), the mother's were fine, the dad's were awful.

>You could say the pups are from a bitch in your lines and show them proof of the bitches pedigree and explain what happened and the situation.

And possibly lose their Accredited Breeder (fwiw) status, by selling unregistered puppies from un-health-tested stock?

The bitch owner, in the meantime, has been relieved of all responsibility for her actions and is therefore much more likely to repeat the process.

> Putting to sleep healthy dogs is barbaric theres so many more ways to do things rather then just removing the problem in my eyes and that is my view and i dont care what anyone else says.

It happens all the time, every day, at rescue shelters and vets up and down the country. There are too many dogs and not enough homes.

> If I was a breeder I would take them and as I would have reared litters before I would dedicate my all to ensure they were reared correctly, trainined and socialised.

Dobermanns are a lovely breed but they need the right sort of home. It would be to the detriment of their welfare and well-being if they went into the wrong one - they would end up confused, poorly trained and quite possibly pts after having had a miserable short life. Safety implications would also need to be considered. And you may well struggle to home 13 puppies from non health tested parents to homes with the correct commitment and experience. You would be working round the clock to try to train and socialise that number of pups correctly....

And raising the pups without their mother - where are they going to learn normal canine interaction and social skills?

So why is no one backing me to say take the pups and help out when if you have a stud dog and the mother of the pups becomes ill or dies the stud dog owner has a responsibiliuty to those pups too and may be asked to take and rear them, how is that any different to this situation? Breeder has bred a dog who has fallen into bad hands (obviously wasnt apparant at time of viewing pups etc) and the pups now need help, how is that any different?

So all of you on here imagine this and I want HONEST responses please people.....

You have sold a dog and are happy with that person and hear no more till you find out like above shes had a litter and it will be unregistered, the owner calls you and says can you take these pups from me I can not cope or can you at least take half?
You would all say ''No not intrested sorry. kill the pups my own bred dog has just had, I cant spare the time or money?'' would you?

or if your dog had studded and the bitch had more pups then expected you would all cull the excess pups?

Barbaric as I said before and no matter what is said I KNOW that if pups from a bitch I had bred before or a dog I had studded to another were in need of a hand I would fully extend it and it would not be holding a syringe of deadly fluids.
Puppies dont ask to be born we quite litrally bring them into the world as and when their needed which is sad enough anyway, but to simply destroy what we dont need is so disgusting and chilling too and I know I will never do it, not ever.
I also wonder if the people on here who endorce it would be so willing to cull their own pups if they were born from your own foundation bitch and there were a few too many or whatever excuse you need to destroy innocent life :(

Fitness to breed is not simply a question of passing health tests I would say.

I didn't mean to imply it was.

The OP however seemed concerned primarily over the lack of testing.

> So why is no one backing me to say take the pups and help out

Because it's quite simply the wrong answer :)

You've been given excellent responses above, they really don't need to be repeated. It isn't a question of time or money but rather it's about what's best for the pups and the breed as a whole.

> the bitch had more pups then expected you would all cull the excess pups?

Yes, it's the responsible thing to do.

> Puppies dont ask to be born we quite litrally bring them into the world

Yes, so we must take responsibility for our action.

Breeding isn't just about lovely cuddly puppies. It's about being responsible for those lives, whether long or short. Sometimes breeders have to take very hard decisions for the welfare of both the bitch and the pups.

In the case above, I would suggest that the litter is culled down to two or three, and hopefully permanent, responsible homes could be found them.

Rach85, you have a breed that is extrememly over populated and one which currently fills rescue kennels, yet you say you would be happy to breed, what happens if you had 8 pups but could only find homes for two of them ? what would happen to the other 6, can you honestly say you would keep them ? I think as good as your intentions would be you would find it impossible to keep and properly raise 6 puppies.

The reason no one is backing you is because in reality it is kinder to have the pups put to sleep before they experience how cruel life can really be.  I am the owner of a stud dog and I would bend over backwards to help out any of his pups, and to assist in re-homing one or two is fine and I know that they have come from health tested stock and as the owner of their sire they are my responsibility.  But if one of his daughters were to have a litter and the owner wanted me to take them on to sell as unregistered and unhealth tested then no sorry, not possible.  I have had a country up bringing so am probably quite tough when it comes to animals, as much as I love them and my boys are my babies I can see through the emotional side.  People do put their own emotions onto pets but at the end of the day they are "stock" we control when they breed and we should control what happens to those pups and if there are no suitable homes for those pups then the kindest thing would be to put them to sleep.

i agree schip.
if you had a contact then she has broken it not you so dont lift the rescirts as she could have stopped the pregnancy if she had wanted to.
I signed a contrat with all three of mine and i would dream of breaking it afterall it is my breeder whos line it is so she should have a say who my boys are put with.

> You have sold a dog and are happy with that person and hear no more till you find out like above shes had a litter and it will be unregistered, the owner calls you and says can you take these pups     > from me I can not cope or can you at least take half?
> You would all say ''No not intrested sorry. kill the pups my own bred dog has just had, I cant spare the time or money?'' would you?

For a start I have never bred and have no plans to breed. Neither of my dogs is suitable as a stud. And therefore I would NOT be in this situation. In all honesty - it would depend on the age of the pups firstly - in my opinion to become social animals understanding communication correctly, they need to be with both litter mates and mother for AT LEAST six, and ideally 8 weeks. If they are not the risk of them being unable to communicate with other dogs correctly and either being more likely to be aggressive towards or attacked by other dogs is increased as a result. This will cause problems for both potential new owner and pup.  The reason euthanasia is available is because sometimes it is the right and most sensible thing to do. And the kindest. If the dogs are unlikely to be found suitable homes - again it may be kindest. I am not talking from the point of view of washing ones hands of them - euthanasia would be much harder to do emotionally - but what I would want to do is consider how the pups best interests and welfare would be served. It is not about the time and money - it is about the best interests of the pups.

Furthermore people's circumstances sometimes change. Illness, family problems, redundancy etc.... and while they may have fully intended something they may be, due to a change in circumstances, unable to assist - financially or physically.

> or if your dog had studded and the bitch had more pups then expected you would all cull the excess pups?

In most breeds you will have an idea what sort of size the litters will be if you have experience of the breed in general, and also of the lines you are breeding from (in the latter I am assuming genetically close relatives\lines that are well bred have a tendency to produce similar sized litters etc - in the former i know breeds like paps and chis generally only have a couple, and breeds like gsps and flatcoats have litters more commonly of 8-14). I would, assuming I was studding a dog, have endeavoured to ensure that the bitch owner was knowledgable about the breed, had homes already waiting for pups on a list, and knew what to expect in terms of numbers etc!!

> Puppies dont ask to be born we quite litrally bring them into the world as and when their needed which is sad enough anyway, but to simply destroy what we dont need is so disgusting and chilling too

Exactly - puppies don't ask to be born, therefore we are responsible for their welfare - and sometimes euthanasia is the most appropriate action. It is not fair to keep puppies alive when there are not suitable homes for them, where they will not get the time and attention they need, and where they will not be cared for properly.

Of course the best thing is to consider all the issues before breeding - and while not everything can be predicted, the likelihood of this sort of situation arising is minimised. Which is one of the reasons people become so irate on here about irresponsible breeding!

This may be extreme but I would probably go over and take the pups off her once their old enough.

Would`nt that be theft

What about breed rescue for the pups (once they are old enough?)  Where they dont go into a "regular" shelter, but a foster system just for Dobermans? 

Just a thought.  But if they are unhealthy, then yes, have them PTS.  But honestly, how do you choose which ones are worth keeping, if they are all healthy?  How can you say "ok this one gets a life, this one doesnt?"  Not bashing anyone, just a curiosity thing (I have never had to PTS dogs because there wasnt homes for them).

>How can you say "ok this one gets a life, this one doesnt?" 

You need to know whether homes are easier to find for dogs or bitches (many years ago dogs were popular because they didn't come into season, but nowadays bitches can either be spayed or used as money-making machines :-( so are more popular). It can come down to something as random as "eeny, meeny, miny, mo".

I guess it may be easier, when my breed only has one or two pups a litter.  The most I have ever seen a min pin produce is 5, and that is a RARE thing.  It must be so different to have a breed that produces such large litters.

I would imagine that in the current climate it is hard enough to find homes for 13 registered dobermann pups from health tested parents never mind these ones, unregistered and no tests done! You just know that the vast majority will end up in unsuitable homes or being palmed off to breed rescue - I don't like the idea of culling (far too soft hearted which is why I would NEVER breed) but in this case it may be the kindest thing to do. I certainly don't envy the OP who has had this situation foisted on her when she has done her best to avoid it.

> Hi
>
> I bred a litter 3 years ago and had a call from someone who had a bitch.  Anyway owner said "she has dropped early".  
>
> Thing is bitch has breeding and endorsements on her and owner signed a contract.
>
> Apparently it was an 'accidental mating' with her male.  She now has a litter of 13 Dobermanns and she doesnt know the vWD status, PHPV status etc of sire or dam (dam is either vWD Clear or Carrier)...
>
> I am fuming!!!!!!! 

Hi,
This may have been an accident, but if she didn't intend to breed why has she managed to buy an entire male and female. :-(

Those puppies didn't ask to be born and there here now, Possible solution -
- Suggest you would lift the endorsement if the bitch was first transfered into joint names with yourself? If she agree's the puppies can be registered and get thier health checks. Once the puppies are sold, the bitch can be spayed and only when she is spayed sign the bitch back over.:-) :-) :-)

Mean while suggest she get her male castrated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I refuse to sell a bitch to anyone who already owns an entire male, and vis versa. :-)

> Suggest you would lift the endorsement if the bitch was first transfered into joint names with yourself? If she agree's the puppies can be registered and get thier health checks. Once the puppies are sold, the bitch can be spayed and only when she is spayed sign the bitch back over.:-) :-) :-)
>

That's a good idea.  You would have to be prepared to be enormously steadfast about refusing to sign any future registrations for any more "accidental litters" before the spay was carried out though.  I still think the numbers would need to be brought down though unless the OP has a sound waiting list that they are prepared to sacrifice from their next planned litter.  The chances of producing so many extra good homes out of thin air in this climate seems a lot shot to me.

> I refuse to sell a bitch to anyone who already owns an entire male, and vis versa.

I can see why you do - but that is generalising somewhat. Some people prefer to keep pets entire but do not intend to breed - or say for example, someone has a male dog, does not wish to castrate him, but wants another dog and chooses a female - as is generally recommended from a 'harmony' point of view in pet homes - intending to spay her once she is mature enough so there will not be accidents?

Obviously your criteria for homes are up to you - but do you see what I mean?  I would actually have gone for a bitch to go with my dog (who I did not wish castrated) rather than another dog - except I do not believe in spaying a bitch before she is fully physically mature, and it would have involved managing entire dog, bitch and seasons which I did not feel confident in doing.

And people can lie - especially with bitches - about whether they are spayed or not - and with dogs unless you actually see them complete with plums you won't know either. :-)

I would not put two entire opposites together either unless to another breeder or someone equally experienced and prepared for what is required.  It is very difficult for ordinary pet homes to appreciate just how difficult it can be let alone achieve a truly adequate seperation so I rather expect them to opt not to combine, as you did, if they really don't want to neuter.

> And people can lie - especially with bitches - about whether they are spayed or not - and with dogs unless you actually see them complete with plums you won't know either. :-) <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" height=10 alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20>

Hi,
I made a suggestion for original OP.
Those puppies didn't ask to be born and there here now, Possible solution -
- Suggest you would lift the endorsement if the bitch was first transfered into joint names with yourself? If she agree's the puppies can be registered and get thier health checks. Once the puppies are sold, the bitch can be spayed and only when she is spayed sign the bitch back over. 

As for people lying. If I get a wiff that a pet puppy buyer already have a dog and want a bitch, yes I meet the dog and yes I check it's castrated!
If they had a bitch, (I also do not like them to be spayed under 18months), but sorry again would want to meet the bitch and yes I would check for a scar.
I like to meet the whole family, pets and all. :-)

> Hi,
> I made a suggestion for original OP.

Yes, and you made another statement - which I responded to - and rather more politely...

Hi Munrigirl78,
Sorry didn't mean to offend.
Hope my idea might help OP.
If the mating was really a mistake, I'm sure the owner will have no problems putting the dam in joint names for a short time and will be happy for the advice and suport. The dam in quetion is three years old so spaying shouldn't be an issue, she is already mature.
But am sick of hearing about pet people who manage to buy an entire dog and bitch, then hey presto accidental mating.
As I say sorry to offend.

On the other hand if the OP offends  the owner and the owner thinks the breeder is just after money ... there could be all them puppies out there just sold to breed ....at least think about a contract where if you lift restriction's the dam has to be spayed and pup's on some contract too ...

Could you possibly get a contract written up to say

that you will lift endorsements so puppies can be registered and sold to pet homes (endorsed too) aslong as she takes the bitch to be spayed at the earliest date possible. Physically take her to the vets and do everything you can to make sure she is spayed other than to do the op.

Only problem is the untested pups

did you sell her knowing that they had an entire male dobe

sorry if ive repeated posts havent read all of them

thanks for replies.... am still very cross. 

Apparently her friend is very famous breeder and I think she is being advised.  She has dropped the name a few times and I wont mention who but those who show would know who it is.  Surely her friend would advise what I am doing is correct?

She cant find the males KC reg docs and NO I didnt know she had entire male...  does anyone who sells a pup to someone with a male go and check the male is entire?  I doubt it.  Same as those who sell a male, I doubt you ask for status on female, anyway this has happened and I do not think it was an accident.  The bitch I bred is either vwd clear or carrier (NOT AFFECTED).  But her male hasnt been tested and as far as I know neither have his parents, the Sire of mine was Clear and Dam Carrier therefore resultng in no affected pups.  The bitch was sold as a pet only. 

Off to stick head down loo.......

I have asked what her plans are for the girl and have had no replies I am VERY reluctant to lift ban as she was well aware of the contract and knew what it meant. 

I appreciate accidental matings might happen but having lived with 2 entire females and 1 entire male all vwD carrier, I ensured NO accidental matings took place as this would have been detrimental to the breed and any puppies born, my male was eventually castrested so he could live in harmony with his bitches.  I would never put a potential litter at risk from an accidental mating or death if it could be prevented.  Sadly vWD and other health problems are not made common knowledge and this is where some of the mistakes happen.

I have asked her to get bitch tested, I hope she comes back clear, but if I lift ban it will only be for this litter and no further litters, I have offered to take bitch back and have her here if they no longer want her.  Bitch is 3 years old tomorrow so I dont think it is an accident, very convenient as ther litter are now mature.

:-(

> but if I lift ban it will only be for this litter and no further litters,

I am not sure how you will enforce that as the KC will not put the endorsements back on they will be able to register all further litters without any reference to you.

Its a little odd she can't find the (stud) dogs papers, even if she has lost them she can trace the dog through her own ownership details from the Kc. if he's registered, and in her name. if she can't find the details for him, how can she register the litter even if she removed your own restrictions. Has her 'friend' allowed her to use her dog, and now only found that the bitch is restricted, or did they both think they could force your hand by saying the pups are unregistered, obviously its better for the puppies to find better homes with that paperwork, although I don't know how they would get around the health test bit. I think there could be a little more to this story than has been told already. if its all above board, and is an accidental mating between her own two dogs, then I would expect her friend if so responsible and high in the show world to advise what the 'old hands' on here have advised.

You could change the bitch back into your name, or in joint names, and lift the endorsment but then you are equally responsible for the puppies future welfare and any problems, this is a litter you wouldn't have bred yourself because you have no idea of the lines and all the other reasons, yet by allowing them to be registered you and your good name are backing the litter.

Just a little thought, are you sure there actually are a litter of puppies, and this is not just a ploy to get you to remove the endosrment for future breeding?

Much as it is hard, because of the puppies and your feelings for your own bitch that you did your best to protect from this sort of breeding, stay strong and don't allow her to register the puppies. Leave the endorsment to stand.

Horrible situation, everyone's worst nightmare, I would imagine!

I understand what people are saying about culling some of the pups, an ddo agree in theory. However, I am not sure it is something I could go through with myself. (although I would never allow myself for my bitches to be in a situation wher eit was necessary to put a healthy pup to sleep) I am also not sure if any vet would be happy to put a healthy dog to sleep, and have certainyl hear dof vets who have told owners they would do so, and then rehomed the dog concerned.

Can understand how cheated and upset you feel :(

In your position I'd REFUSE to lift the endorsements, after all, this was just the situation they were designed to cover, if you lift them what was the point of putting them there in the first place?   Also if you lift them and the pups are then registered, you will be involved if any then prove to have VWD :(

Don't be intimidated by the mentions of the NAME breeder ;)  it could just be a ploy ;)  anyone can drop names ;)

ETA - personally, I would not be helping out with the pups either, rearing 13 pups and then trying to home them without papers will be a good wake-up call and may put her off repeating the experience ;) especially if she still has a few around at about 13 weeks old ;)

Why not take the bitch & pups on, transfer the bitch into your name so you can register the pups?  Once the pups have gone, get mum spayed and return her minus her paperwork.   That way you'll ensure the bitch never gets 'accidentally' mated again.

You will also find out if she really wants the bitch as a pet!