Hi, apologies for signing up and immediately asking for help, but I'm desperate and after any suggestions at all. It's a  bit of a long story but I'll do my best to keep it relatively concise.

I have 2 bitches, both rescues. One is 7 and I've had for 6 years, the other is 2 and arrived approx 4 weeks ago. Both are collie Xs. The dog we've had ages was speyed as soon as we got her, the new dog was booked to be speyed, and then very unexpectedly gave birth to 8 puppies 2 weeks ago tomorrow. This came as a shock, as we'd had her checked over by the vet 36 hours previously, and they'd checked her over and not detected a big tummy full of tiny weeny puppies! Anyhoo, we seperated the dogs for a week, as the new dog was getting stressed by the presence of the old dog, and it was stopping her feeding the puppies. In hindsight, this might not have been the best option, but at the time we were just concerned about her successfully feeding the pups. 5 survived, and they're all thriving now, starting to stand and walk, although eyes not fully open yet.

Old dog came home yesterday, and they seemed ok with each other, old dog is definitely no threat to the pups, she's the softest natured dog I've ever know. We expected new dog to be protective and not let old dog anywhere near, but they're getting very aggressive. They had a few 'minor fights' which we let pass as they need to sort out who's in charge, and they're still relatively new to each other anyway (they got on ok before the puppies were born, after a day or two of initial scraps). They're now at a point where old dog has a nasty cut on her pad, and we've had to seperate them for the night.

If anyone has any suggestions of how to handle this would be very, very welcome. We have good homes for all the puppies sorted, but obviously there's a few weeks of mothering to be done before they can go their seperate ways, and any hints/tips/suggestions would be very much appreciated. I don't really know where to start. Both dogs are submissive to me and my other half (and see me as alpha), but I don't really know if I should/how to go about seperating them. Ideally, I'd just pick them both up, knock their heads together and tell them I'm in charge and to pipe down, but it doesn't work like that!

help!

Hope that all makes sense.

Thanks

Tony

most bitches dont allow other dogs near new pups but only feel like this for the first week then start to relax, you must keep her away from pups till mum says its ok, its normal dog behaviour and wont be permanent

Wow....you have your hands unexpectedly full! Sounds like you're doing a grand job under the circumstances. No advice but I wish you lots of luck :-)

Poor you, what a situation to suddenly find yourself in!  In my experience bitches are not happy to have another bitch around their litter until at the very least the eyes are open and more often than not are not comfortable until they are well up on their feet around 3 to 4 weeks.  That need not mean sending the other bitch entirely away but I do think it best to allow the nursing bitch a room entirely to herself with the puppies.  You might then find that meeting in other rooms and certainly in the garden will be more relaxed and will help maintain the relationship that they will still be building after their relatively short aquaintance.

Firstly the second bitch you have only had for 4 weeks, and in that time she has had pups and is at her most protective, your older dog is territorial and settling in new dogs takes time.

I'm very upset that you allowed these two to even get close enough to have minor fights, now is not the time to be settling pecking orders,

I would strongly advise sending your older dog away until all the pups are gone, and then start slowly introducing the two, and lets hope that they forget their previous meetings.

They have every chance of getting on, but at the moment they are strangers the youngest has pups to raise and protect, please just remove your older bitch for now, these two bitches have not lived together previously do not know each other at all, and a bitch having pups automatically will think she is the Alpha, she  has not grown up with your dog to accept her as the older Alpha female as other bitches living together do, so you need to wait until the younger has no pups.

Then slowly introduce, come back on the site when this needs to be done for lots of tips and help, but right now please remove your older dog. :-)  And just concentrate on raising and homing the pups, you have enough to deal with right now,

Good luck with everything. :-)

Carrington, you have it spot on.

WOW that must have been a surprise when the pups arrived! :-D

Glad to hear her and pups are doing well, I dont have anything to add to what Carrington has said as it is spot on!
Just wanted to say WELL DONE for taking on a rescue and even the pups too, we need more people like you in the world! :) :) :)

I think it would be a shame if the older bitch had to go away for the entire 8 weeks and that may not be practical for the OP if they were having to pay for kennels.  If they were getting on prior to the puppies I would think there is every chance they will again when the puppies are older and I do think other dogs in the household are a real asset when it comes to early socialisation.

two of my bitches who knew each other slept together played together fell out as soon as one of the bitches was mated , I separated them for sleeping and if I left the room. Once puppies were born Mum had her own room and only went for short walk with other dogs when she was ready in herself and trusted to leave the puppies. We have since had another litter this time completely different as they knew thier place in the pack.
it took a few months for things to go back to normal once puppies had gone plus we kept one we mixed pup with our other bitch most of the time and she seemed to bring my girls back together and become friends again but it takes time , patience and vigilence.
So in  a household where they didnt know each other I can fully understand the aggression with a new mum protecting her babies.
If its possible to keep both in the home but seperate then this is what I would do  otherwise you will have to find temporary accomodation for your older girl which would be a shame because of her age and she may feel pushed out.

good Luck

Roni

>old dog is definitely no threat to the pups

Many people would be surprised at a bitch hurting puppies of another bitch, but it can and does happen.  Your new bitch knows this and is acting accordingly.

I have a mum and daughter who are inseperable - they have never had a disagreement let alone fought, but when daughter had pups I kept them separate until the younger one was happy to see her mum.  This meant that the pups were about 5 weeks old in our case and even then the older one wasn't allowed in the same room as the pups this came about a week later as I let the younger one set the pace.

In the case of your bitches, with there being no bonded history between them I would take the advice already given and remove the other bitch until the pups have left home then introduce them slowly and carefully.  Please don't let them get to the stage of fighting tho, this will not lead to harmony later.

I think it would be a shame if the older bitch had to go away for the entire 8 weeks and that may not be practical for the OP if they were having to pay for kennels.

It could also make things much worse. When the older bitch comes back the younger will then feel settled in the house and may not like to welcome what she will feel is an intruder -pups or no pups. Bitches that have had pups instantly have their status rise and they feel more important than any other bitch because of it -it's certainly been my experience anyway. Far better to give the bitch with pups a separate room and keep the older in the house so that she doesn't lose her status.

No expert on these matters by my instinctive feeling would be the same Marianne.

I am not an expert and fortunately have no experience on this matter. However, if you could keep the older bitch out of the nursing room for now and perhaps just take them for their walks together, maybe they could keep a bond going but at a time when there are no puppies to protect. Really no idea if this is right or wrong but I do believe it could be worth a try.

I agree with Carrington to a point. But the stress on this poor bitch is HUGE!!! MASSIVE. Thrown out whilst in whelp, kennels, new home, new dog to get used to 2 weeks off whelping. Noone spotted her pregnancy, except the 2 dogs no doubt!. Hormonal!! Allowed to scrap.

Phew!!!

Poor you in the middle of it all. Keep the older bitch right away from mum and babies. Different rooms entirely, Leave her to be at peace with her  precious pups. All will relax then.
When puppies have gone, allow her space to adjust and get used to older dog. Please dont take her off for an operation...more trauma. That is  managable. Allow the 2 girls to get used to each other but it will take TIME.Permanently. Allow mum to relax and enjoy her puppies. She needs time to be her.

So much stress to get over, plus hormones. Who says the older spayed bitch will be Alpha?? The entire young fit mature bitch will no doubt assume that role.

Just let her relax, your older girl and you too.  And well done for not giving up on her, and pups.  

Thanks all for so many very very helpful comments. I think we'll be shipping old dog back to my folks for a couple of weeks and then we'll try again when the pups are a bit bigger and new dog is a bit more settled/calm. Biggest bitch puppy has open eyes today! So exciting.

I'm given hope by the fact that all day today, when both dogs have been in the garden together, they've been happily sniffing and wagging without even a growl in sight, as long as we keep them seperate at night and keep old dog clear of the puppies they seem fine. Which must be good news.

Thanks again.

If they're ok in the garden, have you got a nice, secure shed she could sleep in temporarily?  this would mean that she's not in the house so your mum bitch could relax, but they would still be able to meet in the garden?

I did this with mine, we have a lovely heated workshop at the end of our small garden so OH took the older one there with him to get her used to settling there, then when pups were born that's where she slept and during the day she had free access to the garden.  The bitch with pups was ok with this and as the pups grew older granny was allowed in the kitchen but behind a baby gate ;)   I let the new mum set the pace ;)

These days they ask to go into the shed to get some peace from the hooligan we kept as she can climb all the obstacles we put up to give them peace :-D

Carmen my youngest had a litter of pups 13 weeks ago.  Her and her mum adore each other but for 4 weeks after Carmen had her pups she wouldn't let Lana anywhere near her.  Now they are both fine together again even with the little horror tormenting them!

our Sophie had 7 puppies 10 weeks ago, (grandma Keira and grandad Jasper also live in the house too) the day they were born grandma Keira was helping out with the cleaning up, even uncle Denzil was helping out too, there was no agression at all.
When Keira had a litter 3 years ago she would not let daddy Japser near the pups.  I guess all dogs are different :-)  Make the most of them they grow up too fast and its heartbreaking when they have to leave for their new homes

when my staffy gave birth to six pups three years ago, all my dogs were present, even the father of the pups who lived up the street sat there anxiously, she was unphased by it all. we only bred her the once thats all my nerves could stand, what a shock for you, i had a bitch and male chow from a resuce centre and once night i could hear the male barking went down stairs and thought i had a rat but the girl had given birth, she had just the one pup, but it was the father who did not like the pup for some reason and had to be kept separate from the bitch and pup. He became quite anxious and arression began towards everyone bar me. My uncle took him and he went to live on the uncle's farm as an only dog he was happy and enjoyed being the only one, i kept the pup for 11 years and mum died aged 10. lovely fantastic dogs.
However one my friends german shepherd bitch (she had two and a male) killed both sets of pups she had the vet did not have an answer unless they were all ill for both litters which i doubt.

Hi tonedepear,
You must remember the bitch protects her pups. Some that feel threatened eat them, some dogs kill young pups. So I am not suprised that they are fighting quite normal. They haven't all been reared together, strangers really. We would not trust an adult by our babies that we didn't know. Keep the others away untill the pups are running about. But! a good mom will still be very protective.
All mine have been reared together from puppies and there nature is very gentle. So I do not have this problem. But! I would not bring an older strange dog by her babies. No- way
I would expect some kind of protection.

Denese

> Just wanted to say WELL DONE for taking on a rescue and even the pups too, we need more people like you in the world! :-) :-) :-)

I echo what Rach has said, what a lovely thing to do and brilliant that you have got homes for the pups aswell :-)