Does the Kennel Club or anybody regulate how often a bitch has puppies.  Surely it is cruel to mate a bitch at every season and therefore have two litters of puppies a year.

The KC do not permit it every season, in that there is a total number of litters permitted but they do allow two litters a year from hobby breeders who, they feel, will not be abusing their dogs and will be governed by the overall health and well being of their bitch.  Breed club members, of course, will be governed by their code of ethics and certainly some clubs will allow for it and I would say they are the best judge of their breed.

IF the bitch only had 1 puppy and there was a VERY good reason for not waiting a full season, then perhaps it would be ok - otherwise I would always give a bitch a resting season.

No  the Kc  dont regulate  as much as they should do  i know of a bitch that was mated  on 3 succesive  seasons. poor thing.

I suppose I have been swayed by my own experience of, admittedly, not very big litters but 4 or 5 anyway, but I have to say if my bitch had not appeared to be fit and well by the time her next season occured I would seriously worry about her fitness for breeding anyway.  I'm not talking about litter after litter but really shouldn't an animal be able to take two straight forward gestations and deliveries in a row in her stride?

i wouldnt mate a bitch on a consecutive season unless she had 2 or less puppies and was in peak condition next time and even then i would have to be very sure.

what a bitches body is physically capable of and what is fair on her i think is two different things, but thats my own opinion others will have their own views and experiences.

my bitch just gave birth this morning and i am sooo happy, havent been to bed since sunday night and wont be going for a while yet either :)

If she is physically capable how can it be unfair?

why would you need to breed your bitch 2 seasons in a row?

For the same reason you would pick for a second litter any other time I suppose ie because it suited your plans.

So, if a bitch has a season every 5 months you think it would be ok to breed from her on the next season if she only had 1 or 2 pups?

I think that a bitches cycle has to be part of your plans. I had a bitch that had 10 month cycles and if her next cycle would take her 'overage' I might have thought about it. I never did breed from her though, so that is hypothetical. I do have a bitch that has 5 month cycles and would never breed from her on consecutive cycles.

sorry but i dont understand what you mean by "suited your plans" could you explain to me what you mean please?

>sorry but i dont understand what you mean by "suited your plans" could you explain to me what you mean please?

I don't know if I can :-)  It seems such a straight forward concept to me.

it doesnt to me

> I think that a bitches cycle has to be part of your plans.

Well quite.  5 months is rather shorter than the normal for most bitches I would think.

"If it suited my plans" ....the phrase is surely obvious - if when I want another puppy for the showing/agility/obedience/to keep my line goingand I have a bitch which satisfies my breed club criteria, and I have a good stud lined up for her, and her season coincides with a good time scale in our/my life, then it would suit my plans.

What do you think it means, Hayley?

Your plans are what you plan to do in your life taking into consideration what you are anticipating to happen in the future.  I really can't see what is so very inpenetrable about that.

thanks Lokis mum :) the way i took it was plans as in other things to do in a yrs time so i must breed in 6 months i thought well then why not wait a yr and a half, but if it did suit my plans then i stil wouldnt breed my bitch 6 months after her last litter

Think people are misinformed about just how much power the KC have, the only sanction they have is not to register a litter of pups and in general they do not registered if the bitch has two litters within the year, however there are times good & sound reason to do so and if this is backed up by a vets letter the KC would be in legal trouble if they refused to register.

The KC is a private club that happens to organise the sporting activities of dogs, not all, there are other who do so independent of the KC. They are not a branch of the government nor do they have any control over owners and breeders beyond registering the dogs should the breeder wish them registered, licensing events, should the organisers of the event wish them to and the only sanctions they have is to fine officials for misdemeanour at a licensed event or refuse registration or attendance at KC licensed events. They have no legal standing whatsoever to stop people breeding from any dog they choose and as often and they wish.

> in general they do not registered if the bitch has two litters within the year, however there are times good & sound reason to do so and if this is backed up by a vets letter the KC would be in legal trouble if they refused to register.
>

Actually that's not quite right. The KC will register two litters within one year without question, as long as the breeder doesn't have a Breeder's Licence.

> They have no legal standing whatsoever to stop people breeding from any dog they choose and as often and they wish.

No, but it is against the rules of the Breeder's Licence to breed two litters from the same bitch within a twelve month period, which is why the KC won't register such litters.

>No, but it is against the rules of the Breeder's Licence to breed two litters from the same bitch within a twelve month period

And of course Breeding Licences are issued by the local Council under the Breeding and Sale of Dogs Act, and that is law.

Sorry, should have made that clear. :)

isabel of course it can be unfair, a puppy farmer will breed a bitch consecutively throughout her life which she can physically do because she comes into season and concieves,  but would you say that was fair then, cant see your logic at all sorry!

I thought I had already said I am not talking about litter after litter.

> shouldn't an animal be able to take two straight forward gestations and deliveries in a row in her stride?

that in my opinion is unfair on the bitch regardless of if she is capable or not, as i have said already in my opinion

In what way is it unfair? 
I see from your avatar that you have a large breed that may have large litters.  I would not presume to know anything about their fitness to breed twice in one year but I do know in smaller breeds that have much more modest litters a bitch should really be healthy enough to not be showing any physical detriment by the next time she comes in season.  This view is supported by the breed club ethics of some clubs.  In these breeds I would seriously question, unless there was a large litter or birth complications (which may in themselves preclude further breeding) that a bitch in her prime that was still in reduced physical state come next season was maybe not a suitable bitch for breeding in the first place.

it is rare a good breeder in my breed hasn't had a bitch back in the show ring 3 to 4 months after having pups. Back in quality condition.     My freind got the RCC 7 weeks after having pups. (fully weaned pups at home I may add)

Actually that's not quite right. The KC will register two litters within one year without question, as long as the breeder doesn't have a Breeder's Licence

Unfortunately, this is not the case. I reported a Licensed Breeder to the Kennel Club who had had 2 litters from two bitches 5 months a part, 2 litters from two bitches 6 months apart and 2 litters from three bitches 7 months apart. (All in the same quarter). They did not want to know and I have to say were very sharp mannered on the phone when I reported it.  When I further wrote my complaint they sent me a letter of 'no interest'. Luckily the Council were far more concerned for the bitches and he has received an official warning. BTW these were Labradors and all were good sized litters.

isabel, i am not questioning if a bitch can be back to great health by the time she comes into season again, one of my bitches (another large breed) had 9 in january and is in excellent shape now and could cope fine i would imagine with another litter, however i am talking about the morals of it, not the physical side, after a few months rest why should she be expected to do it all over again, and also although she is looking fab, her insides need a rest and time to fully recover from the stress they are put under to carry and whelp a litter, regardless of litter size.

i appreciate there are vast differences from breed to breed but my personal choice is NOT to breed a bitch on consecutive seasons unless it was very exceptional circumstances.

to alisongold's comment, that is terrible, sadly many people are mislead about the KC, there limit on a bitch is 6 litters, however these 6 litters could all be back to back from the age of 12 months, personally i think that is disgusting and does nothing but allow puppy farming to continue - how sad :(

the cocker spaniel club basically says that its ok to breed on two consecutive seasons my breed club says that a bitch should not be bred from more than once a year

congrats mandy!

i agree. pregnancy is a massive physical strain and just because you are physically capable doesn;t mean its best, look at women, we can reproduce again a couple of months after delivery, doesn;t mean the bodies recovered

i'm certainly not a small breeds expecrt but surely a smaller dog having smaller litters should make little difference to their over all considtion after breeding? they have smaller litters because they are smaller surely and should take as long to recover?

just asking

Thanks astarte, i have been looking forward to this particular litter for a long time, my girl done so well i am a very proud mummy/nanny! :)

i have no experience of small breeds but i would think that the strain on them would be no different too, as they have smaller litters because they are smaller dogs.

> her insides need a rest

Don't understand that I'm afraid.  What is expected to happen there?

> however i am talking about the morals of it, not the physical side,

I don't understand that either, if all is well on the physical side where can the morals be wrong?

I am not suggesting that this be compulsory :-).  I, personally, would not choose to do so because I find my role in the process exhausting :-) but I think if we are going to point the finger at others and talk about morals or kindness or any of these emotions we should really look carefully and see if these really are just personal emotions or whether there is any substance to the accusations and I really haven't seen any evidence that there is.

> we can reproduce again a couple of months after delivery, doesn;t mean the bodies recovered

My mother-in-law had her first two babies in a 12 month period starting at the age of 38! and then had another 18 months later.  She lived to her late 70s with no problems at all in the "ladies department"  I believe Britney Spears offspring are similarly spaced and although she is a young lady with lots of problems they do not appear to be anything to do with a compromised physical robustness  :)  My own mother had three of us spread a little longer ie over an 3 year period and again, just like shelling peas. A further one 7 years later and again no problems to her physical health what so ever.
Some woman might find it draining but many more don't and although it is inappropriate to apply eugenics to humans I would dare to suggest that it is the later group in dogs that we should be choosing for our breeding lines.

> i have no experience of small breeds but i would think that the strain on them would be no different too, as they have smaller litters because they are smaller dogs.

I do not have your experience of large dogs so I have no problems believing you that large dogs feel the strain but I can assure you it can be very different with smaller dogs with smaller litters.

> Don't understand that I'm afraid.  What is expected to happen there?
>
>

the uterus goes through alot to carry and whelp a litter and should be given adequate rest inbetween litters, not to mention the pain involved in birth. women who have babies in quick succession choose to do so, a dog doesnt.

> I, personally, would not choose to do so because I find my role in the process exhausting

enough said i think!

we clearly have very different breeds and therefore different opinions, but i truely believe that a bitch should not be breed in succession regardless of breed. i agree that only the fit strong bitches who whelp well should be used in breeding programs, my bitches have done great with pregnancy and whelping, rearing etc and are fully fit on their next seasons but i feel they DESERVE to be given a break and cant see why the next litter cant wait a year - whats the rush?

> the uterus goes through alot to carry and whelp a litter and should be given adequate rest inbetween litters.

The uterus is a fantastic organ build to change and revert and perform this function just as nature intended.  I have no idea why people think it will takes months and months to recover unless the process has been unusually traumatic.  Can you offer any actual evidence for this belief?

>women who have babies in quick succession choose to do so

Exactly, even the pain women go through does not put them off the overall pleasures of reproducing and what they go through bears no comparison to the generally much easier experience for a bitch.

> i feel they DESERVE to be given a break

Again, if they have suffered no physical impairment and enjoyed motherhood I don't understand that sentiment. 

> and cant see why the next litter cant wait a year

I'm sure in many cases it can but it does not take a great deal of imagination to think of a few instances where people might prefer sooner rather than later such as if there is a limited time to use a imported or retiring stud or even some personal commitment preventing a desired summer litter such as a family wedding or a trip to the World Show.  Why should people feel obliged to put off a litter from a fit healthy bitch nicely in her prime.  I really haven't seen any evidence that the breed clubs that believe their particular breed to be perfectly capable of doing this are in any way wrong and I can certainly think of other breeding practices that I am far less comfortable with.

Just read this thread!!!!
The KC are only there to make money.

The KC will register two litters within twleve months from a hobby breeder.:-(
Liscensed kennels can only regitser one litter per bitch, per twelve months. This is how the puppy farmers get roung it, even when licensed breed twice a year one litter regitered and one litter unregistered. :-(

I can not see many reason why a good show breeder would breed on consequitive seasons!!!
Maybe because you lost an entire litter or you had all dogs and wanted to keep a bitch.
Nope the only reason I can see for doing this is MONEY.

Ps those of us you breed, holidays are planned round our dogs, infact are entire lives revolve around our dogs.
THEY COME FIRST.:-)

Nope the only reason I can see for doing this is MONEY.

my thoughts exactly

It's all very well having a rant about your personal feelings but I don't think you can expect others to agree with absolutely no rationale behind it. 
I think there are far more money raising schemes to breeding that having two litters back to back in an ethical breeding programme that involved fully tested and shown or worked stock. 
How would two litters back to back raise more money than two 18 months apart?

> those of us you breed, holidays are planned round our dogs, infact are entire lives revolve around our dogs.
> THEY COME FIRST

Absolutely! my plans with my dogs always come first, weddings and shows would be given a miss way before i would breed a bitch on consecutive season because it wasnt inconvenient

Very noble of you :-)  Obviously the World Show would hold no interest for you as you don't show, if I remember correctly, but would you include your own childrens weddings perhaps?   Actually I say noble but that would only be so if it was in any way detrimental to your dog otherwise it would just be rather pointless to miss out.

> I, personally, would not choose to do so because I find my role in the process exhausting

i noticed you made no comment on this, so its too exhausting for you but is ok for the poor bitch that has to carry, whelp and rear a litter!

Not noble at all, just love my dogs! As for childrens weddings, if the litter was going to coincide with that i would mate on the season after that instead of before forcing a back to back mating.

i am afraid i feel very strongly about this and am glad to see so do many others :)

 

> i noticed you made no comment on this, so its too exhausting for you but is ok for the poor bitch that has to carry, whelp and rear a litter!
>

Sorry, how does my exhaustion project onto the bitch?  She gets to sleep whenever she wants while I fret about latching on and lying on and from about 3 weeks she never cleans up another poo or rushes litters in and out to start housetraining and cleaning beds and runs...............on and on my duties go while she spends time loving and playing! :-)

it doesnt project onto your bitch, your missing the point isabel! whats good for the goose and all that!

thats right i dont show, but given the choice of a puppy from a litter that was bred by a breeder who doesnt show or a breeder who breeds litters back to back, i know where i would go!

Can't follow that logic I'm afraid.  Her role and mine are very different.

clearly we are not on the same level at all!

No :-) In the absence of any logical rationale or evidence to support the view that this is detrimental for all breeds I will stick with accepting the various Breed Clubs advise as being the broadest consensus, thank you very much.

No, sorry, I cannot see any reason to have two litters in the same year whatever the reasons given.

Well I can't see the reasons why not :-)