Hi everyone,

I'm hoping someone might be able to point me in the right direction, I am trying to put a friend off using her dog at stud. To give a basic outline, the dog is an 17mth old, very very overly popular breed, and not that well bred himself I believe. IMO I don't think he is going to turn out to be a great example of the breed, but I'm not an expert.

My friend doesn't plan to do ANY health tests (as they cost money), and just thinks that she will be ok if she advertises her dog as a stud dog for a few hundred £ a time to anyone with a bitch in season (any breed). I'm pretty infuriated and am really trying to talk her out of it, I've printed out the advise on the pinned threads here to show her and tried all sorts of reasoning, but the only thing that made her seem to listen was when in desperation I told her that if a pup from her dog had health issues known in the breed, she could be sued for not doing what she could to prevent them (i.e. by having health tests done).

Now I realise that just because health tests have been done it doesn't mean the dog is ideal as a stud, but I really think this just might put her off completey, sooo, can anyone point me in the direction of an article or court case where a puppy buyer has successfully sued the stud dog owner for not health testing their stud dog?

I know it's a long shot, but she really only sees the £ signs and not the bigger picture sometimes - and it's started to put our friendship to the test :-(

Thanks,

Claire

You need to give her the worst case senario of what could happen and what this would cost her in cold hard cash

The worst I have ever known about was a sucessful lady in our breed.  She breed this bitch as normal, only the bitches second litter.  Everything was OK first time.
The litter arrived, 3 live puppies.  Everything was fine for a few days then the bitch got an infection.  It was so bad the pups then needed to be hand reared.  The bitch was at deaths door.  2 puppies died in a few days leaving only one puppy left.  The bitch then needed to be spayed to stop the infection as the drugs were not working.  Around 2 weeks after she was spayed she wasn't getting any better and the infection had damaged her heart so she was put to sleep.
The one and only pup left was doing OK but was very small and very weak but did survive.  Due to the pups colouration it could never be shown like his mum was and was kept as a pet.

The whole thing must have cost her in excess of £2000 if not more not including the cost of the stud or the original cost of such a good show dog.

Is your friend really prepared to spend that much and lose her bitch on the of chance she might make a few pounds?  I have personally breed and showed dogs for a long time and I would say there is no way to make money from breeding.  Especially if it is her first time as she would need to purchase everything that is involved.

Good luck trying to change her mind, some people seem to have their head stuck so far in the sand saying that will never happen to me but it has to happen to someone and it could be her.

Try this angle with your friend - a dog used at stud is more likely to mark in the house, become more agressive with other dogs, howl ALL night when they get a whiff of a bitch & yes she will be liable if pups are shown to be affected by a genetic disorder (but if she takes all comers then its highly unlikely that puppy owners would trace her.) Seen a 6 month old Rottie 'at stud' recently only £300!!
Angela

You need to point out to your friend that once a dog has been used at stud he is more likely to start lifting his leg around the house, is she prepared for her house trained dog to suddenly scent mark everywhere.

And of course there is the possibility that her stud dog might pick up an infection from a bitch which could prove costly.

Not only could he pick up an infection from a bitch but he could also pass it on and this could also prove costly if the bitch owner decides to sue ;)  

My rescue dog used to go missing every time a bitch was in season.  He's escape from our secure garden, scaling 6 foot fences with no problem - he was 17 inches high   these days he'd be picked up by the dog warden and cost a fortune in fees.  The only way to stop bim was to get him neutered.

I know several dogs who have been used at stud and scent mark in the house :(

PM me and I'll send you the pictures of the unwanted dogs in the pounds, I don't mean the ones posted by the rescues of dogs looking forlornly through the bars that tug at your heart strings, I mean the ones of the reality for those dogs when they're time is up, no dignity for them when they're piled on top of one another.

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the replies, I'll speak to her about the likelihood of him marking in the house (and ruining her nice new sofas in the process) - I don't think she will have considered this, or the issues about possible infections etc. I think if I can find a financial reason as opposed to an emotional one she will be more likely to listen (rolleyes).

Thanks again,

Claire

Financial reason that she may take note of. If said puppy from untested parents hypothetically went on to develop Hip dysplasia (the breed was known to have hip problemas and should be scored). Owner is faced with a huge bill and the possibility of having said pup pts due to the severity of hd, owner then takes legal advice and finds that trading standards will become involved and her solicitor then decides to sue both stud dog owner and dam owner for resulting costs your friend could be in £££££ trouble then. Worth trying that tact with her

Does this breed have any health problems?  If so, I would stress that unless she health tests, she will be liable for any inheritable problems suffered by the pups. People are starting to take breeders to court, and unless she can prove that she took due care by getting her stud dog tested and ensured he was only used on tested bitches, then she would be liable.

No responsible bitch owner would allow a bitch to go to an inexperienced un-tested dog so the people who may use her dog will be as irresponsible as she is, probably with no knowledge of the mating process at all.

As the stud dog owner it will be up to her to supervise the mating, sometimes acutely in a hands on way. The safety of both the dog and bitch are the dog owners responsibility and should either be injured by the mating process or from a bite, and handlers can get bitten as well as the partnering dog, and genitals can be badly damaged particularly if the tie is not well handled.

It is normal for the stud owner to put the bitch and the bitch handler up for one or two nights, feed and entertain them.  You also need somewhere for the animals to get to know one another and to perform the act and to be able to separate them afterwards.

Most bitch owners will expect two or three matings for their money, over a course of two or three days.

Each mating can take from twenty minuets to 2 hours, so in the region of 1 to 6 hours on mating duty and supervision of the socialising time, sometimes several hours, plus the catering and hospitality, and you will get, if you are really lucky, about £300 for an unproven dog of no particular merit or pedigree.

You will be responsible for the progenies for the rest of their lives, apart from their health you may be responsible for re-homing and/or the cost of kennelling. You will be liable for any damage done to the bitch or the bitches handler at the time of mating or ill health of the bitch after mating if struck down with an infection, you are also responsible for any damage or infection your dog may acquired via the mating as well. You are responsible to check on the health of the bitch being served, a bitch dieing of a heart attack whilst being served is unpleasant and could be very expensive. Likewise the kennelling supplied for the bitch must be of good quality and of a size suitable for the bitch.

On top of that you may need to apply for "change of use" from your home unless you have kennels available.

Oh my gosh, I am not a breeder, and if I had any delusions about becoming one, this thread would really drive home the responsibilities involved. Scary! I really admire you people that sooo know what you are doing.

I am a retired midwife, but I would run a mile from a whelping bitch!

Liz

Thanks again everyone.

Nova, I am going to print your post and show it to her - it might just make her think!!

Floradora & JenP, what you have posted is exactly what I have be warning her of, but she doesn't think this can happen, I am trying to find, if I can, actual examples of stud dog owners who have been successfully sued through the courts, but I can't seem to find any actual cases, only the possibility that it could happen.

I think if she can see that so and so was sued for £x thousands because they used an un health tested dog then she would re-think, otherwise it's only a vague possibility.

Claire

May be a long shot but try ringing around a few TS depts. A lady called Mo Davie from its a dogs life who campaigns against puppy farmers may also be able to give you some facts and figures. If you want her tel no please pm me.