Just got the end of school letter from my sons secondry school.
Now James does not have earings, but is growing his hair, and it has just hit his eyes.
The School rules are
Boys are not allowed to wear any piercings (not a problem for James, but for others, but girls are allowed 1 set of studs in their ears)
Hair must be one natural colour and a conventional collar length style and out of their eyes.
Ok I can understand out of their eyes, as I am sure they would come down on the girls if that was the case, but WHY should boys only be allowed collar length hair, when girls can have theirs any length and the girls can also wear trousers, so its not a uniform sex discrimination!!!
I am strict with my children and James respects authority, has just been on a reward trip for keeing his nose clean, always wearing uifrom correctly etc etc So this is not me as a mother moaning about authority, I just think it is sex descrimination!!!
I also wont let him out the house unless his hair is neat!!!!
Lea :)

It sounds like the local Grammar.
The boys likewise, the girls have the added thing about skirt lengths.
My son (now 25) had his hair pink a one stage whilst at the school and my daughter now, along with others, are rolling up the skirts as far as they dare.
I think that children want to rebel and teachers want conformation. So a battle of wills roll on.

Karen ;)

I think the local grammer is more strict!!! LOL
This is a comprehensive!!!
Girls are meant to have knee length skirts (yeah right, I swear half of them I can see their knickers :o)
When I was at high school we were in detention if it was too short, or sent home!!!
I just dont agree with the discrimination and would challenge it if it came about!!!! just wondering if anyone else agrees??? LOL
Lea :)

A case recently went to court here over this very thing.

A boy refused to cut his hair and was subsequently suspended from school for 3 days for breaking school rules.  His parents fully supported him and argued that his human rights had been breached and that the school's policies were discriminatory because girls are allowed to wear their hair long etc.  A judicial review found that the school's uniform policy and code of conduct was not unlawful.  Info about the case here

So, while it seems discriminatory to you and I, the law, certainly in this case anyway, thinks differently.

I agree, in this day and age it shouldn't be necessary to enforce such things.
When I was at school...years and years ago!
The boys did 'metalwork' and the girls did 'cookery'. I knew of one girl who challenged it and they were good enough to allow her to join the boys as they didn't want to be seen to be discriminating.
Authority is always worth challenging.....the rebel in me....says so.

Karen

Thanks Jules :)
Isnt it rediculous :( :(
I coach athletics and I know if we segregated the boys and girls completely it would be very frowned upon :( :(
I bet the judges were old school who still believed women should be see and not heard (admin you can delete that if you think I am against TOS)
and yes Poloaussie I agree with Discaplin but believe they should be sorting out bullying and the little sh*&s that create havoc, and lay off the arcahic rules!!!!!
Lea :)

In the Dark Ages when I was at school anyone (boy or girl) whose hair touched their collar had to have it tied back out of the way, and never loose. Would James be allowed to/submit to wearing his hair in bunches or plaits?

Now that I would agree with as long as the girl had the same!!! But I dont think it is the case as the letter says:-
'conventional, collar length style out of their eyes'
I am not out to make trouble, and I am not extremist, I just think that with all the quality, schools have messed up and have got no equality at all !!!
(including girls do net ball while boys do football. Girls ad boys are segregated for sport full stop, but thats another story LOL)
Lea :)

Cant really comment on the actual policies, but thought I would add the story. (I am in agreement with you Lea!)

When I was in highschool, we had sort of the same rules.  We didnt wear uniforms (public school) but we had to follow a dress code.  Women werent allowed to wear tankies that had a strap less than 2 inches across the shoulder, armpits, feet, and bellies were not to be seen (ok, bellies I could understand, but armpits?????  what boy finds armpits attractive???)  Skirts were not to be too short (no more than 4 inches above the knee or something like that).  What I found silly, was the principal said the rules, and then she herself didnt obey the rules, and was walking around in short skirts and speghetti strap tankies. 

Yet the catholic schools, wear their skirts so short, that you can see their undies!!!!!! 

I personally think that clothing and such doesnt make the person, but the persons actions done.  I find these rules somewhat silly.  I would ask about how you and your son can bend the rules a bit, but still conform to the written dress code.  But thats just me.

that is, your right, i;d be having a word.

my school was great like that, as long as you were in dark grey, navy or black with a shirt and school tie you could get away with anything else.

> collar length style out of their eyes'

is this to make sure the pupils are awake and not dozing off in class ;)

Perhaps you could get him a hairband - becks style to hold it back or see if he would have it braided off his face (like corn rows) until it gets long enough to tie back?

My daughter would be chucked out then, cos hers hangs in her eyes all the time, it drives me nuts I would have a million kirbie grips in it.
I wouldn't make a fuss Lea, let him grow it if he wants then make a fuss if and when the school does :-D You may well find that if he keeps it tidy ie tied back, they won't say anything at all especially if the other aspects of his uniform are OK. Sometimes these rules are there to avoid the extremes appearing (multi coloured mohicans and the like) rather than anything else.

LOL
Yes thats what I thought, just let him do what he wants with hair, I just want to be prepared if I get a phone call!!!
You can guaruntee that he WILL have tidy hair!!!! whether he likes it or not (he has been told that if he does  not keep it dtidy he will be back to number 2 back and sides and short scissor on top straight away!!!!)
I dont think he will do the beckham head band, apart from anyting else he takes after me, and has twice the hiar on his head than the norm!"!!!! I am going to take him to hairdressers this week to have it thinned and trimmed before Scouts poacher next week :)
Lea :)

The grammar school I went to was quite strict and had a very good record in terms of discipline and acamdeic achievement.  However, they would tend to turn a blind eye to minor breaches of the uniform/dress code.  Several of my male friends all had hair that was longer than the code of conduct stated was acceptable but I believe the only time anything was said was when one of them tried to dye his hair at home and it turned out a rather bright orange!  I would admit that my skirt was always shorter than it should have been, I wore too much eyeliner, my hair was always in my eyes and never tied back and my jumper was so long it almost covered my skirt.  Interestingly, the only time I was pulled up for 'incorrect' uniform was when I forgot to take out my second pair of ear studs...which could barely be seen because of my long hair.

So, I'd tend to do as Dakko suggests...let him keep his hair how he wants it, ensure it's neat and tidy for school, and wait to see if anything happens :-)

LOL, ooooooh I was soooooo much of a goody two shoes!!!!! Maybe thats why I was bullied soooo much!!!!
But also if I wore a short skirt I was classed a tart by my fellow class mates!!!!
Yes I will wait and see what happens. But I will let James have his hair how he wants and back him up al the way, AS LONG AS it is TIDY and out of his eyes!!!!!! LOL
Lea :)

Lea - my son had dreadful hair as a teenager. It looked as though he had cow horns but it was his choice and he had to wear it so I just let him do with it as he wished. It was his bit of "rebellion" and from a parent's point of view it was an easy rebellion to live with and far better than some of the other areas he could have chosen to rebel in. He knew it wasn't a style that I particularly liked, which probably made it even more desirable from his point of view:) but an easy rebellion to live with :) Sometimes you have to lose a battle to win a war :)

You are not forced to send him to that school Lea ..if you disagree with the rules, send him to another one :)

I believe boys and girls ARE different and as such, certain things are acceptable to one that isn't acceptable to others - probably not a popular view but there it is.

>But I will let James have his hair how he wants and back him up al the way,

And if it is against the rules as they stand now ??

Once parents make a stand against the school, any respect for teachers goes out of the window and we are in to anarchy ..the making up of your own rules.

BACK THE SCHOOL UP!!

I dont disagree with the rules persai(sp) but I do disagree with the one rule for girls and one for boys!!!!
Mel out of complete interest and not geting at you at all, why do you believe boys are different to girls??? (this being said as you know I have utmost respect for you :)
Lea :)

Yes I agree about rules and backing teachers up!!! I am the first to tellmy kids off if my kids have played up at school. God help them if I actually get a phone call from the school about their behaviour (I think thats hppened twice in 10 years and once the teachers  were wrong, which came to light a while afterwards)
But why should my son, who respects teachers. respects everything to do with disciplin be tied down to rules that are goverened by kids that have no respect for teachers and no respect for disciplin!!!
IF my son was always in trouble I would agree whole heartedly with you Mel, But it seems the kids that do right cant do right as they have to bend over backwards to prove they are perfect becasue of all the Sh!tes that are on schools where there mothers dont care about disciplin!!!
Lea :)

I would like to think that teachers had more important things to think about than the length of any pupil's hair - but I agree anyway that if girls can have long hair so can boys. Personally I think fussing about kids hair or clothes is a bit silly and schools should focus on teaching. Most teenagers like to experiment a bit with their appearance and there is plenty of time to conform later on!

>why do you believe boys are different to girls???

Because they are! I used to be a girl (!) and I went to school with girls and boys, and since I left I've come to realise they are chalk and cheese!

When I was a girl I was a fan of co-ed schools. Since I've been a grown-up I've realised how much better I'd have done if I'd gone to a single-sex sixth form. Boys and girls are just different.

But I went to a single sex high school, and believe I wouldnt be in the position I am now if I had hd experience with boys from an earlier age!!!!!!!!! once I did I fel fr the first guy that came along!!!!! Bad mistake LOL!!!
Lea :)

>>why do you believe boys are different to girls???

Because they are :) Medically proven ..males generally NEED competition and like sports more than girls, Girls generally need different incentives, are more empathetic ..loads of different reasons

Oh and I went to the same single sex school Lea :D :D Didn;t do me any harm and isn't doing Sophie any harm either ..seeing as she is going into year 13 in September :)

>I fel fr the first guy that came along!!!!!

LOL! So did I! But I happened to still be at school, rather than somewhat more adult! (Oddly enough he's recently made contact again. At least he says it's him, but I'm sure I'd have noticed a middle-aged bald bloke in class!)

When I went to High school there was a rule that girls couldn't wear trousers, so we had to walk to school, in all weathers, freezing our a$$es off because we weren't allowed to wear tights either, had to be white socks :-( . We fought this rule for years and the rule got changed finally because times change. There are a lot of boys who prefer to wear their hair long, so provided it is kept tidy I dont think that this minor infringement of school policy is going to cause a mass flouting of the rules and outbreaks of anarchy in the classroom, TBH I think that the almost shaved head look that some boys have is more detrimental to the image of a school than long hair, they all look like mini thugs :-D

As soon as someone mistakes him for a girl or he realises just how much hassle long hair is he will be begging Lea to get it cut :-D

ok I dont disagree that boys and girs are medicaly different BUT, why should girls be allowed what ever hair style they want AND alowed to wear trousers but boys arnt allowed to have over collar length hair????
Mel, I left KSHS the year before miss Outram retired so you can see the strict school I was at!!!
Lea :)

>why should girls be allowed what ever hair style they want AND alowed to wear trousers but boys arnt allowed to have over collar length hair????

Are boys allowed to wear skirts? If not, you should complain!

PML at JG I did debate putting that in my 'argument' but decided that would ope a whole new can of worms!!!! LOL
But I do sort of agree it is one rule for one and another for another :o
Could boys wear kilts like david beckham :)
Lea :)

Possibly Kilts ? :-D

Snap Dakko!!!!
Lea :)

Wow I thought all teachers were overworked and wouldn't have the time on their hands to worry about a pupils hairstyle!!! ;-)

that was part of our uniform list if people wanted to wear them. eventually it was changed to having to be the school tartan though. was great on days scotland were playing lol,. all the boys in kilts

what is acceptable for boys thats not for girls now? i don't think of myself any differently than i think of my male friends aside from the obvious differences. what difference does his hair style make to his ability to be educated? there is a male lecturer at one of the universities in my city that wears skirts everyday to his classes, does that stop him being a good lecturer? those i know who were under him say definately not.

i hoped we were begining to move into an age where people are not judged or restricted by sex, both boys and girls! 

> Personally I think fussing about kids hair or clothes is a bit silly and schools should focus on teaching. Most teenagers like to experiment a bit with their appearance and there is plenty of time to conform later on!

couldn;t agree more

It really isn't about hair or clothes...it is to do with accepting authority. Unfortunately, too many people no longer realise that we all have to do this to a lesser or greater degree and that is why the country is like it is now

>Wow I thought all teachers were overworked and wouldn't have the time on their hands to worry about a pupils hairstyle!!!

And I thought parents were supposed to support the school and educate their children into accepting rules :)

I think at the end of the day the schools have to draw a line somewhere.  There have to be rules and regulations in schools that have to be enforced or else how do children learn that rules and regulations in society have to be adhered to? 

Anyway there's nothing worse than a child saying "so and so is allowed so why can't I?" when you are trying to keep on top of what your child can and cannot do.  When my daughter saw that one of the other girls was not wearing the strict PE uniform I had argument upon argument with her because she wanted to wear labelled jogging trousers too.  I was not very happy with the school for conceding because the school had always had a strict uniform policy and I bought into that wholeheartedly.

On a practical note IMO boys' sports involve much more contact and for this reason alone I would accept that boys should keep their hair short. This was the reason I would not allow my son to have his ear pierced.

And I thought parents were supposed to support the school and educate their children into accepting rules

We have to teach them to respect authority, to be tolerant of people differences and to make decisions for them selves. To judge if a situation is right or wrong.To act on what they believe to be right, and stand up for those believes. Teachers often only complicate this for us parents.

My opinion, such as it is, is that if parents support a child's rebellion, they take something from that child.     Let the child challenge authority on his/her own.......they then learn either to argue their corner successfully - or that the authority cannot/should not be flouted.   

If the child can put forward a good, constructive argument, good - and he/she will gain confidence in that he/she has achieved something.

If, on the other hand, he/she comes up against hard, no-nonsense authority they also learn a valuable lesson - that in life they will come up against rules that cannot be crossed.

But as a parent, I firmly believe that one should stand back - but let the child (or young person know) that the parent backs the law/authority - the law may be an ass - but at the end of the day, it is the law!!

Margot

>Teachers often only complicate this for us parents.

Right ..........of course they do :) You do realise that the Government tells teachers what they have to do ....don't you?

> And I thought parents were supposed to support the school and educate their children into accepting rules :-)

Within reason....would you support a rule that was imposed on your child that you didn't agree with?
I happen to think most teachers do an excellent job and without them we would be lost...but a rule such as the length of hair??????? What will that "teach" any child, except that the teachers are out of touch with youth?

At school the teachers that got the best out of me weren't the strict "out of touch" teachers but the teachers that respected the children and saw things from our perspective :-)

>would you support a rule that was imposed on your child that you didn't agree with?

Probably - because i don't know everything about running a school and maintaining discipline within it. I might well tell my child that I don't agree with it, but them's the rules, and we can't pick and choose which rules (or laws) we 'll obey and which we won't.

>but a rule such as the length of hair??????? What will that "teach" any child, except that the teachers are out of touch with youth?

It teaches a child the vital life lesson that, unless they're quite exceptional, they're going to have to conform if they want to succeed. When they leave school and try to get a job they'll find that there's a dress code they have to stick with or they simply don't get the job. It might seem petty but it's a lesson that will stand them in good stead throughout life.

>And I thought parents were supposed to support the school and educate their children into accepting rules ...<

>Within reason....would you support a rule that was imposed on your child that you didn't agree with?.....<

Why send your child to a school whose rules you did not agree with?    As a parent, you have the right to choose schools and unless you can support a school wholeheartedly, it makes life more difficult for one and all!

Of course, part of education/maturity is learning that there are certain rules that one has to adhere to, or accept the consequences if one challenges them.  And to learn that there are far more important rules to kick against than the length of one's skirt/hair!   (speaking as someone who would wilfully turn the waist band of her skirt over and over and over .... ;) )

Margot

>but a rule such as the length of hair??????? What will that "teach" any child, except that the teachers are out of touch with youth?

As one who grew up during the 60s and 70s I can remember the hippie vs skinhead era very well.  The strictest schools with students who were not allowed to have the fashionable hairstyles of the era were the best performing.  Teachers may well be out of touch with fashions but those who create boundaries keep discipline and I would argue that those with the best discipline get the best performance from their students.

Unfortunately, my school wasn't one of the strictest, some boys did have long hair, some had skinheads, there were many playground and after school fights, truanting and intimidation by both teachers and pupils. :-(

Dont know about shcools as I have no kids, but I work in a hospital and we have  a strict uniform policy. Hair has to be natural colour, no jewelery, short nails, minimal make up, flat shoes(navy), trousers of a length to just touch the shoe :-D . I can understand some of this  on cleanliness grounds, but I never once heard of a patient being offended by a nurse wearing non regulation socks. I once got reprimanded by my boss for wearing a non regulation hair elastic....pale pink instead of navy!. Im just wondering what will happen if they accuse me f not being a natural blonde :-O

> It teaches a child the vital life lesson that, unless they're quite exceptional, they're going to have to conform if they want to succeed

Ahhhh I must tell my pierced, pink haired friend who has a thriving business, no money worries and a palatial house that she must be exceptional ;-)

> When they leave school and try to get a job they'll find that there's a dress code they have to stick with or they simply don't get the job. It might seem petty but it's a lesson that will stand them in good stead throughout life.

I would agree that uniform is generally worn everywhere and there are other parts to work dress code such as hair tied back etc if you are working with food etc etc but I have never come across any rule such as length of hair in my career.

> Why send your child to a school whose rules you did not agree with?&nbsp; &nbsp; As a parent, you have the right to choose schools and unless you can support a school wholeheartedly, it makes life more difficult for one and all!
>
>

I agree with you 100%, if i didn't agree with the rules imposed by the school I had chosen I would whip my children out, but this obviously becomes more difficult if the rules are changed whilst your child is there and happy with everything else.

What I am trying to point out is that if no-one challenged rules then we may aswell be told how to dress what to eat, how many children to have etc etc. We all make our own choices and I feel that once children become a little older (secondary school) then they should be allowed to make "some" of their own choices and decide who they are. I would have hated to have kept my hair plain and boring throughout school, I have fond memories of becoming a blonde, redhead and even my gothic stage of dark purple. Our english teacher got the best of 99% of her pupils because she allowed us to bend the rules, she spoke to us like a friend not someone who didn't understand us and none of us wanted to let her down. This has applied to my working life also, I have and always will work harder for someone who respects me as an individual rather than a lemming!!!!!!

I wouldn't expect a hair length clause in your job as written in your biog :) but how about the Police, the Forces, most Professions?

>Ahhhh I must tell my pierced, pink haired friend who has a thriving business

I think you missed a vital part of the previous post that you were answering ...towhit:

>unless they're quite exceptional

Exceptional people will succeed ..there is no doubt about it :)

If you want your children to wear what they want, have hair as long as they want etc etc ...school them at home ..after all, teaching is such a simple job , or it would seem several people here think it is :)

> have never come across any rule such as length of hair in my career.

My husband was turned down for a very well-paid job in the Middle East simply because his hair was too long and it was considered that it showed he had 'the wrong attitude to work'. So I do know what I'm talking about.