Hiya, I need some help with this.
I have recently been given a welsh springer, he's 3 and in tip top condition. He had his puppy jabs but his owner never gave him booster jabs as she believes that they are unnecessary after the puppy jabs. She has lots of dogs and they all live outside and she knows what she is doing. 
Today my dog swallowed a mangled up dead bird and i freaked out, i know that dogs eat stuff like this all the time and that he's caught rabbits in the past but it looked pretty manky and as i have never dealt with this before i got very worried.

I rang a vet who freaked me out and had me in tears thinking he was going to drop dead from parvo. So i booked 2 appointments for jabs.
I know without a doubt i have to get him a wormer and thats not a problem. He has not been sick and is eating and drinking and it's been 10 hours since he eat the bird and he seems 100 %. I am worried that as he has missed booster injections, having them now could do more harm than good. I have heared stories about peoples dogs having bad reactions to the jabs, and his previous owner said that her friend had a dog that died after having a jab. I don't know if this is true.

I would like to know if there is any risk at all with booster jabs and what people think i should do.

The question of whether to vaccinate and his eating a bird are totally unconnected. Dogs cannot catch the vaccinatable diseases from eating anything, however manky. They catch the vaccinatable diseases from other dogs. Full stop. If your dog ever mixes with other dogs or goes where other dogs have been he needs immunity - either natural or through vaccination.

That said, I have (and always have had) my dogs boostered annually and they've never had a problem from it, even when they're in their teens.

I don't have my dogs vax'd yearly as I titre test(we lost a dog to vax reaction)& in any case adult dogs do not need the puppy vax if they haven't been boostered at the PC time. Puppies only need two vax to ensure that the maternal antibodies haven't effected the first one. Adults only need one vax no matter what the vet says This is the Vax manufacturers protocol I certainly would not allow any vet to give an untitre tested dog a puppy double vax

My partner thinks that the previous owner is lying and that he hasn't had puppy jabs. I am so confused. I want him to have the jabs but am scared that they will kill him. Am i being totally over the top?

Many of us do only the one vaccinations so I don't see why your OH would think the person is lying.

> My partner thinks that the previous owner is lying and that he hasn't had puppy jabs. I am so confused. I want him to have the jabs but am scared that they will kill him. Am i being totally over the top?

He doesn't need two vaxs he only needs one as he is an adult, the reason we lost our dog was over vaxing him(he had been vax'd every year from puppyhood)

Dogs don't need two rabies vax whenever they are first vax'd & the same applies to the normal vaxs. Why not have him titre tested & then vax'd after you have the results if he needs it

Hi,

We had our 2 yr old Ridgeback vax'd for the thrid time on what was a 1/2 vax> he is now in the vets extremely poorly. I am kinda expecting the worst, but hoping for the best.
Your dog you lost, what sort of symptoms did he have?
We are currently pursuing the manufacturer for costs too.

Any advice or guidance would be most appreciated.

Thanks

Emma

As I understand it providing the pup had the full injection then it is only necessary to give annual or 9 monthly boosters for Parvo and leptospirosis, the latter being the most important if the dog does not mix with other dogs as this diseases can be caught from rats and any other animal wild or tame or contaminated water, but not from eating carrion as it is passed from the carrier in urine. Parvo on the other hand is passed dog to dog and the carrier dog may well not show or ever show signs of the infection but is still able to pass it to an unprotected dog.

>leptospirosis, the latter being the most important

The Lepto vax is the one that causes most of the sdverse reactions & as it covers only two(or 4 depending on which manufacturer produced the vax)servors(types)of lepto & those are the ones found manily in the USA. Unless the dog is likely to be in contact with rat urine then Lepto vax are a waste of time @ best & dealy @ worst. It was our dogs lepto vax that caused the massive reaction that caused his death.

Unfortunately most dogs are likely to come into contact with rats, rats being everywhere in large numbers. But like all things in life one has to weigh up the odds and make your own decision, I live in Lincolnshire where dikes and waterways abound as do rats so I have decided to have my dogs vaccinated and have perhaps been lucky not to have had them suffer ill effect. I have however lost a very dear friend to the human version of this disease, he died a horrible death and I have never forgotten although it was years ago, so I guess my decision to vaccinate, to some extent, is down to that experience.

>We had our 2 yr old Ridgeback vax'd for the thrid time on what was a 1/2 vax> he is now in the vets extremely poorly. I am kinda expecting the worst, but hoping for the best.

Most vaccines for adults are only required on a tri annual basis & have been for several years have a look at this link

Have a look @ Spangler's Site

>Your dog you lost, what sort of symptoms did he have?

Scamp started to have breathing problems minutes after his lepto booster & collapsed in the reception area, he was rushed in to the treatment area & never came home, withion 3 hours he was dead as all his organs had collopsed

>Unfortunately most dogs are likely to come into contact with rats, rats being everywhere in large numbers.

??? ???

I live in a rural setting & the only time we have had a rat problem is when there was a battery chicken farm across the road, when it closed & was fumigated the rats that survived crossed the road & came to our area. A series of baitings by a pest control firm resulted in several hundred dead rats of all ages & the discovery of where the rats were holed up. The pest control company continues to monitor the area, but rat numbers are now minimal. now mice & squirrels are a different matter totally.

I've had my dogs Lepto tested by Idexx(sp)& they do not need vaxs-Lepto in humans is exceptionally rarely contracted via dogs/cats, much more likely from contact with the rat urine directly. Good hygene has been found to minimize any risk(that's what the medical experts think)

I do not want to risk one of my dogs dying the way Scamp did

I hate scare tactics. If my vet spoke to me like that I would have asked for the confirmed cases of Parvo in the area, if you ask your vet this don't be surprised if it's not forth coming. And your dog should only have one vaccine not two for a dog of this age but I hear this often about time some vets checked the protocols.

I personaly would titre test. When the results come back then only vaccinate the ones needed.
If you do not want to do titre testing and wish to just go down the vaccine route make sure it is the three year vaccine as less stress on the immune system the better for the animal.

Do not let your vet guilt trip you or for you to be forced into anything. Walk away research and make the decision with a cool calm head as over vaccinating can be dangerous. You are the client the vet does what you say if the vet does not like it then find a vet that will work with you, many good vets will be more than happy to have you as a client.

> I have heared stories about peoples dogs having bad reactions to the jabs, and his previous owner said that her friend had a dog that died after having a jab. I don't know if this is true.
>
> I would like to know if there is any risk at all with booster jabs and what people think i should do.

My dog has had Anaphylactic shocks, has auto immune diseases with allergies to just about everything. My dog's reaction was confirmed by the vaccine manufactures and have been told not to vaccinate again. Saying that I have had one vet try to push me to vaccinate again and I gave him a tounge lashing for note reading the medical records.

Yes animals can die due to vaccines adverse reactions then again many dogs are fine. It happens in humans to. All anyone can do is advice you to research ask questions then ask some more then you form your own conclusion - it's a tough one I wish life was more easier but sadly that's not the case *sigh*

Emma, keeping everything crossed for your boy - has there been any improvement?

>> I live in a rural setting & the only time we have had a rat problem is when there was a battery chicken farm across the road, when it closed & was fumigated the rats that survived crossed the road & came to our area

Moonmaiden, I believe the statistic often quoted is that we are never more than 20' from a rat at any given time.  Now, I have never seen any rats near me or my house but I don't doubt they are there and they have to pee somewhere ;)

I think you will find that is based on urban rather than rural statistics. There are always rats near & in farm buildings(hence the battery farm was riddled with them)rats prefer easy pickings & you are more likely to see a rat in the middle of the London than you are where we live(@ least that is what the pest control officer from the council told me

> I've had my dogs Lepto tested by Idexx(sp)&

Hi Moonmaiden, Please can you explain about the titre testing for Lepto as I've been given to understand that it's not possible?

> I think you will find that is based on urban rather than rural statistics.

I'm not at all sure that the countryside does not have it's rat population albeit maybe thinner on the ground.  Wherever there is human life there is generally rats. 
Anyone that attends shows and competitions with their dogs will also be likely to enter more urban areas with them on a regular basis.

> Hi Moonmaiden, Please can you explain about the titre testing for Lepto as I've been given to understand that it's not possible?

It is a test usually done on cattle & other stock & quite basic, but does show up titre levels. I had to pull a few strings & link it in with some research being done into canine reactions to vaccines, Idexx do them for me as part of a larger program into Lepto research

This is an interesting quote from a site dedicated to Lepto

"There is an incidence of reaction to leptospiral vaccine (leading to anaphylaxis and sometime death), but this is concentrated in puppies under 12 weeks of age and small-size breeds (toys and miniatures). Vacccinating small breeds should be based on a careful discussion with your veterinarian as to the relative risks, and puppies should wait until at least 12 weeks before their initial innoculation."

Mine are titre tested for lepto immunity by Idexx as well.

>Parvo and leptospirosis, the latter being the most important.

I disagree, :-) out of the vac's available for our dogs, Parvo is my biggest concern in the UK at this current time.  It's a hardy one, capable of surviving extreme temperatures, living in the environment for a long time and it can spread like wildfire.

OTOH, Lepto have a poor survivability rate so it's not an 'easy' disease to get.  Can be very nasty thou which is probably why vets recommend vac, not necessarily because it's high risk but because it can be fatal and it can be carried to humans.

Yes rats carry Lepto but it's doesn't survive very long in rat's urine and yes there are lots of rats in the UK.  We've been known to come across the odd dead one down by the river but my dogs haven't been vac for Lepto since 2005.  They are old now and stay close to us on walks so on balancing risk, I have more concern about the vac than them swimming in the river or sniffing round a dead rat.  That said; never say never; we just have to make our own judgements on risk compared to lifestyle and form a decision that suits us best.

Then again, exposure can build a natural immunity too.

The vac only covers 2 serovars and protection is anything from 4 to 8 months, maybe less, maybe more in some dogs and the protocol around here is an annual vac.  I understand that the vac may protect against clinical disease but does not prevent sub clinical infection to a 'carrier' state.  There have been as many as 8 serovars to effect dogs, 4 in particular and the vac does not provide cross immunity to other serovars.

PS. I'd also be careful running out to vac my dog with a Parvo vac when there is confirmed Parvo in the area.  If the dog is incubating Parvo already, a vac could be enough to push him into full blown Parvo symptoms.  In my view, if in doubt, titre test.

> and protection is anything from 4 to 8 months

It will be interested to see what those that are titre testing for leptospirosis now will be finding out about their dogs immunity.

It would certainly. At this current time, I'm not convinced as to whether the titre test for Lepto is of much value, completely different ball game with Parvo thou IMO.

I have info from a specialist in titres etc and the lepto vaccine is not much use in the UK as the strains used in the vaccine are not the strains around in the uk and even if they were (which they are not) it is only effective for between 3-7 months.  Definitley not worth taking the risk of adverse reactions when there is little or no protection.

The vaccine cover includes Leptospira canicola and Leptospira icterohaemorrhagiae which are both seen in the UK and the fact that L.canicola (for which the dog is the main reservoirs) is now becoming much less common is directly attributed to the increase in vaccination.

>The fact that L.canicola (for which the dog is the main reservoirs) is now becoming much less common is directly attributed to the increase in vaccination.

Is it?  From my understanding L.Canicola is still the most prevalent world wide but there has been a lack of epidemiological research on Lepto with lots of claims made based on anecdotal evidence.  The manu's still insist that L.icterohaemorrhagiae and L. canicola are still the antibodies most often found in blood tests of infected dogs although they acknowledge that other serovars are on the increase but I honestly don't know if these are vaccinated or non-vaccinated dogs.  I'm not convinced that L.Canicola is now much less common because of vaccination.  How common was it say 10-20 years ago, how was it differentiated to other serovars, what tests were used to identify it and how reliable were they?   The jury's still out in my view. 

This is what intervet state.  I'm not sure they would say this without any evidence to support it.   Either way I am not sure why it is still commonly stated on message boards that these are not found in the UK.

In that article Intervet say the prevalence of L.canicola has declined and yet when challenged about their 2 Serov Lepto vac, they allegedly said L. canicola is still the antibodies most often found in blood tests of infected dogs.  

I don't think anyone really knows if it has declined.  I believe there wasn't sufficient reporting done years ago and it was never an epidemic to start with so the numbers were low, possibly too low to give value. 

Allegedly the manu's have admitted that they do not have any real epidemiological data. 

>Either way I am not sure why it is still commonly stated on message boards that these are not found in the UK.

Me neither, wish someone would enlighten me...

As this is something that occasionally affects humans you would think there would be some data for them to base their suppositions on. 
You might be right but then that is just speculating too :-)

>You would think there would be some data for them to base their suppositions on.

There is, anecdotal based on the results of blood tests and post-mortems I believe.

I know it's zoonotic but has there ever been a case documented where a human has caught Lepto of a dog?

If it is based on blood test and postmortems that is not anecdotal is it?
They must have determined it is zoonotic some how or other :-)  Even if not terribly contageous it is very serious when contracted.

I think you will find Spender is correct Isabel.

In my opinion, we cannot take the findings of Intervet and the such like with more than a pinch of salt as it is in their best interests for dogs to be vaccinated year on year, regardless of efficacy and sadly the detriment it causes to our animals health.

You will need to dig a little deeper as some of us have had to do and speak to the chemists and specialists in the field who don't have a vested interest, but do have the knowledge :)

It is a fact that the lepto strains in the UK vaccine are NOT the strains found in the UK whatever Intervet tell you.

The "Dogs today" artical on Lepto is a good read.
http://www.dogstodaymagazine.co.uk/lepto.html
And
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/k9health/wwwchc/Dogs%20Today%20Lepto%20Article%20Nov%202006.pdf

> In my opinion, we cannot take the findings of Intervet and the such like with more than a pinch of salt

Thankfully we don't have to as, in order to obtain a licence for every medicine or treatment in the UK, others more qualified than us will be scrutinising their research.

>> You will need to dig a little deeper as some of us have had to do

Do you mean beyond the unscrutinised output on the internet and into peer reviewed publications?

>It is a fact that the lepto strains in the UK vaccine are NOT the strains found in the UK whatever Intervet tell you.

Do you have a reference to relieve us of our continual puzzling over this one? :-)

Another interesting read

http://www.hpa.org.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebPrinterFriendly/HPAweb_C/1195733796598?p=1191942176631

In general, leptospirosis is uncommon in the UK. There are usually less than 40 cases per year in England and Wales - less than one case per million population per year. Between 2000 and 2005, laboratory confirmed reports of leptospirosis in England and Wales have ranged between 54 and 28 cases annually. In 2005, details of the activity which may have resulted in leptospirosis were available for 28 people with indigenously acquired infection. Eight were farmers, one of whom was a fish farmer and all reported contact with livestock and/or rats. Nine people reported an activity involving fresh water contact, these included canoeing, windsurfing and swimming, or other recreational activities. Other high risk activities included falling into watercourses, clearing streams or drains and in one case, a London street cleaner had been hosing down the streets after a street market. One infection was acquired at the Glastonbury festival, and in one case infection was acquired from pet rats which had contact with wild rats. Leptospirosis can also be acquired abroad, particularly in travellers on adventure holidays in warm climates, where there is water contact such as white water rafting of immersion in inland waters.

On DEFRA own website Leptospirosis is a Non-Notifiable zoonose in other words the disease does not need to be reported.

On OIO(World organisation for animal health) On CHAPTER 2.2.4. No recommendations applicable to Lepto, see links:
http://www.oie.int/eng/normes/mcode/en_sommaire.htm
http://www.oie.int/eng/normes/mcode/en_chapitre_2.2.4.htm

So far I can not see any clincal data/reports on Lepto transfer from Dogs to Humans but I will keep searching

Another interesting read:
http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&Page&HPAwebAutoListName/Page/1191942172102

A total of 937 specimens from a wide range of mammalian species (mainly cattle and pigs) were examined for pathogenic leptospires in 2006. In total 4 pet rats, 1 alpaca, 1 dog, 1 pig and 1 bovine were positive for Leptospirosis.

The positive rat samples related to an incident of Weil's disease in a man which was linked to L. Icterohaemorrhagiae infection identified in pet rats sold by a pet shop.

Last reviewed: 24 January 2008

Zoonoses report
http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/zoonoses/zoonoses_reports/zoonoses2006.pdf

Still can not find any reported incidents of transfer from Dog to Human, seems to be rats causing Lepto/weil's.

> Still can not find any reported incidents of transfer from Dog to Human, seems to be rats causing Lepto/weil's.

L. Icterohaemorrhagiae is generally attributed to rats.  It is L.canicola that is attributed to dogs according to the stuff I have read.
Edited to clarify I mean L.canicola is attributed to dogs as a reservoir they are of course susceptable to L.Icterohaemorrhagiae.

There is reference to a few old articles that may be of relevance here but as often the case on the internet they are available only to subscribers.

>Even if not terribly contageous it is very serious when contracted.

Not necessarily Isabel, Lepto can be fatal in some dogs while others are just off colour for a few days.  Let's not start a moral panic.  :-D

A friend of a friend at work apparently picked up Weil's from swimming in the river but it didn't do him any harm.  He's fine now.

Thank you Isabel I will keep hunting may find the info elsewhere :)

OK can be very serious :-)

Hi Perry,

Ref

>as the strains used in the vaccine are not the strains around in the uk

What are the dominate strains in the UK at the moment?  Do you know at all?  I've read it's L. Icterohaemorrhagiae and L.Hardjo with L. Canicola being dominate in the US but this was published in the late 1990's.