HI Dill

yes we are finding it hard to cope sometimes but majority of the time he is good...

we are looking for a behaviourist (wish the dog whisperer would come to help :)

its sad to hear some pups are more challenging just like kids isnt it,being our first dog we never knew it would be this hard!!  u know we have tried so hard with giz, he is well socialised everyweek, walks every day, has games he plays everyday he loves and burns of his energy, we try to implement what we read and learn as much as possible but it never seems enough when he suddenly plays up..... 

i hope and have hope we that he developes into a well behaved cavalier one day fingers crossed.........

can you please tell me what she said in detail the advice would be great good or bad

im trying to find a local cavalier behaviourist and trainer there are none near us..... in middlesex

i have rang a few places also they say cavaliers are not like this...

so its our own fault i dont know what we are doing wrong anymore its so confusing....

"in that lies your experience"

I have to retract that statement Nikita and apologise... it would appear that you are a CB  so you may have seen many dogs exhibiting aggressive tendencies... inappropriate to their breed and position in households as pet dogs. 

I agree with toolz about the inappropriate breed behaviour and feel this is a major clue that something is awry.  I also agree that we should not stop our dogs growling, but again, if a dog is growling at its owner regularly because it does not want to do this or that, then it's a big signal that all is not well with the dog or the relationship/communication between dog and owner.

I think the constant biting of back legs may be another clue. Perhaps the dog is in pain/discomfort and therefore a high general state of irritability. Or the biting of the legs indicates restlessness and irritability. Gumi also said that her dog's face really changed during the episode when he bit her and that does not sound to me like a bold puppy overstepping the mark with a nip, more like a fear or rage reaction. Hopefully Gumi your vet will check your dog's leg and knee joints and also do a thyroid profile.

I believe there is a behaviourist/trainer called Stan Rawlinson in the Middlesex area. I cannot recommend him as I have had no dealings with him. Others may know more about him.

Please keep us up to date with events.

Good luck.

Why, why, why do people think that certain breeds are immune to acting like dogs. They may react after a lot more provocation than other breeds, but they will react at some point.

Considering a small pup can chew through a chicken wing, or breast of lamb, bones and all, why is it so hard to grasp the concept that they can bite very hard, draw blood and possibly worse if they want to?

To the OP, ask yuor vet for a referal to a behaviourist, or look on the APDT website. If anyone mentions pack theory or dominance, don't touch them with a barge pole.

A good book to read is 'Mine!' by Jean Donaldson. It is all about resource guarding and how to help 'cure' the problem. You should get it on Amazon. In fact, any of her books are worth reading.

I think we can all tend to forget dogs are animals with instincts, Its the same as teaching your kids to share, some do it quicker and easier than others. Re growling you should hear our two playing in the garden its barking and growling, but it is v. easy to tell by the tone when one feels he has had enough!! Usually my Cocker puts OH Border in the right, he may be smaller but he's no push over.
As pups they both tried it on and were corrected and do not do it now.
Jake growled when we touched his foot this week (he has a abcess) and so i got the vet to muzzle him when she checked him. Growling means "do not do that", so stop, see what that is and remove the problem or if you think he will bite again remove the pup. No its not easy, there is no quick fix, there is no handbook for every eventuality. Take what you need from the advice on this forum there are some gems there. Best of luck, and put said pup in a quiet place to think "If I do that I get shut out, so I will not do that".  He'll learn but his instint says "mine b---er off"! Be consistant with punishment if it shut in the kitchen or in the garden do it every time. They learn by consistant behaviour from humans.

Best of luck

Jackson:
I seriously doubt any of the growls would have escalated to a bite, but why risk it? The day any dog bit me, I have failed it.
The OPs little dog has just done that ....but she hasn't failed... the breeder of this little dog has.

It really is just a case of the pup not having any boundaries, or knowing what is and isn't appropriate, so hopefully things will work out. They are such lovely people, and she is already part of their family, I am glad thye have got her. They are obviously determined to sort it out.
(Taken from one of your earlier posts)

I do hope that the method you advise sorted this problem out with your first litter.
As I said earlier " Boundaries and Benefits".... what makes the world go round IMHO

I don't really see the point you are making?

The quote you have taken from an earlier post of mine was referring to normal puppy biting, which has escalated as the owners way of dealing with it (pinning down and waving hands, shouting 'no') was not appropriate, nor what I suggested, not growling and biting after being asked to do something the puppy didn't want to. The two are totally unrelated.

There is nothing wrong with dogs having boundaries. In my opinion (and I am not alone in that) there is nothing wrong with them expressing their feelings either. Obviously biting is not acceptable, but it is up to the owner to understand their own dog.

> In my opinion (and I am not alone in that) there is nothing wrong with them expressing their feelings either

I'm in complete agreement with that fact... but then I would be wouldn't I? Having bred for the required breed specific temperaments for decades. Hundreds of letters, calls and now e.mails from happy puppy owners exclaiming how wonderfully good natured their dogs are.
Never in all the years have I been breeding have I had one person tell me that their puppy, bred by me, had biten them.
Now they haven't all read the book nor are they all experienced behaviourists but they were sold a dog who was bred to be a typical example of it's breed.
Breed specifics do matter and all domesticated dogs have been artificially selected for specific temperaments.
What next... all Finish Spitz should be allowed to bark all day, Sibes all let off leash to run free together. Greyhounds encouraged to chase cats?  Shall I let my male dogs cock their leg on the furniture? For goodness sake... domestication, and to a great extent dog training in general, is the modification of natural dog behaviour.
After many years as dog trainers, most people find that the bulk of their work is working on just those very problems... breed specifics. 
In the light of a huge proliferation in toy dog puppies being produced, I feel it is perhaps a little 'cavalier' to say that an 8 month cav puppy flying into a rage and biting it's owner, is normal puppy behaviour.
I think that we are  running out of useful things to say in this somewhat diverted thread.........

Apart from the OP decsion to go the Vets, and get some professional advice, I found this a sad thread indeed. For so many people to feel that growling is acceptable to a human saddens me hugely.

Can you imagine if I had that attitude with my Rottweiler? Good grief, she would be incarserated by now. Under the DDA, 'intent ' is all that is needed to be proved with ANY breed.

No wonder so many anti dog people have grounds for complaint.

You are absolutely right to get help OP and realise this is not acceptable behaviour in any form, from any breed.  Well done for that.

I cannot even be bothered to argue. You're clearly happy with your opinion. and I disagree but am happy with mine. I am also happy that all of my dogs, all of their ancestors, and any pups bred by me are and have also been bred with the breed standard, including temprement in mind.

So we're both happy. No problem.

>For so many people to feel that growling is acceptable to a human saddens me hugely.

I work at a vet's, and we find that a growl from a dog when you're trying to find the source of its pain is a very helpful hint, and makes the examination and diagnosis much quicker and easier for all concerned.

Growling is a sign of unhappiness in a certain situation. Remove the reason for the unhappiness and the growling will cease.

>Growling is a sign of unhappiness in a certain situation. Remove the reason for the unhappiness and the growling will cease.

Totally agree Brainless!

I've never bitten or thumped anyone in my life and have no inclination to do so.   But if I'm unhappy about something I will let it be known verbally, sometimes I'll even grumble about things

Wonder how I'd behave if I had no verbal means of communication?

In a perceived emergency, I'd probably hit out!

You could try using the "Triangle of Temptation" which is a training in drive program. I used this program to deal with some issues with my Poodle (which, incidentally had nothing to do with the breeder, his lines, or his health - the issues were all to do with me as a handler) and the results were fantastic.

Drive is a subconscious reaction to stimuli; it's also an adrenalin based behaviour. Essentially, when it comes to drive we know there is a trigger, threshold, drive initialisation, drive peak and drive satisfaction. And the Triangle of Temptation puts the dog into the area of its drive in which it can learn most effectively. This approach makes for a dog that not only complies quickly but learns quickly too.

The program was created by a guy called Steve Courtney who is an animal behaviourist from Australia. He's used it for general pets, competition dogs, sport dogs, working dogs, problem dogs, puppies & dogs with phobias - all with great success.

http://www.k9force.net/tot.html

One of my boys growled as a tiny boy!! and I agree that non verbal communication, aften a growl can say play with me, isnt this fun & "b---er off" its the tone.  Notice when men get humpy their voices increase in pitch, and they don't know it!!!
biting as an 8 month aint puppy like it shows no respect, its pure animal instinct.

>Totally agree Brainless!

Did you just call JG brainless

I think/hope she meant as in "no brainer".

Glad the "ad" was shortened. I don't think Gumi should be encouraged to attempt behavioural remedies on her own. It is clear she and her family feel out of their depth and a proper assessment in situ is likely to be the best way forward.

>I think/hope she meant as in "no brainer".

No, she'd got my post mixed up with that of another poster, who has the username 'Brainless'! There was no offence intended or taken! :-D

Hi Freelancerukuk, it actually wasn't an ad. I merely wanted to offer the OP some help with a behavioural issue they're having with their dog. I have personally used the TOT program with my dog and was speaking with genuine experience and success in mind. I have used TOT. People at my obedience club have used TOT. And I know protection trainers and highly successful Schutzhund competitors who use TOT. We're talking the whole gamut from pet owners to working dog handlers and every single person I know has had success with their dog.

Regardless, if the OP isn't encouraged to attempt behavioural modification with their dog, then who should?

I suppose you'll recommend carting the dog off to some kind of boot camp or better yet suggest they contact a random behaviourist you can't actually recommend (because you haven't had any dealings with) but know the name of in their local area? Or is it just a case of encouraging the OP to continue to do exactly the same thing they're already doing (which we know has already ended with a bite) only to leave them in a situation where they'll either have to rehome or euthenase the dog because it's turned on other members of the family.

Shame on me for recommending something I've used and know, works.

Yep as above...I was just playing on the mistake :-P

I've always found "Brainless" to be really rather intelligent anyway :-D

toolz - no need to apologise!  My experience does lie in dobermans yes, and my other two mongrels.  I'm not saying this is normal behaviour for a cavvy - I have known many cavs through kennel work and it isn't.

What I was trying to get across is that growling is not unusual behaviour for a dog.

As this poster said (apologies, didn't note your name down!):

> Why, why, why do people think that certain breeds are immune to acting like dogs. They may react after a lot more provocation than other breeds, but they will react at some point.

This is my point - yes it is unusual for a cav but he is still a dog, and dogs have certain means of communication.  Cutting those means off - whatever the breed - is a bad idea and several people here have given excellent examples as to why.

And incidentally - dobes are bred to protect people from perceived threats - but they were originally bred to guard those people, not guard things *from* them, if that makes any sense. :-P Not good with words today!  Like any dog that's properly raised, resource guarding shouldn't be an issue - Soli was not properly raised IMO which makes her an exception to the norm behaviour-wise, much like the OP's cav (I don't mean he hasn't been well raised, I'm referring to the specific issue btw!).

Miss Liz,

I didn't mean ad literally, that is why I put it in quote marks. I meant, rather, that you espouse a training method that has worked for you and you gave some fairly detailed, step by step, information on it. My point, and I would hope you agree, is that one would not want Gumi to follow a series of instructions off a forum as her first means of dealing with what may be a tricky problem. There again it might not, but how can we judge unless we see for ourselves? Thus I, like many others here, have urged Gumi to seek the help of a reputable behaviourist, having checked with the vet first. I am sure her vet will know of good behaviourists in the area.

I'm not quite sure how or why you conflate my mention of Stan Rawlinson with boot camps and even less sure on what basis you think I would recommend a boot camp? I was simply being honest when I said that I had not dealt with Stan myself but knew that he worked in Gumi's area and this was a name she could check out. I am sure though that her vet will have ideas and other forumites have suggested organisations like APDT.

I did not mean to be critical of you or your methods, I am concerned for Gumi- as we all are- and just feel it would be unwise for her to be following methods she has gleaned from the forum rather than getting expert help in situ. 

my dog is a different breed but the only time my girl has growled at me was when she was in whelp and just after having her pups when i was trying to get her to lay down so both sides were exposed but when i said no and gave her a hug she stopped i think if you know your dog you know when to leave it i knew she was growling because she was uncomfortable and couldnt be bothered being moved but i knew she was never going to bite me and has never growled since

    >Totally agree Brainless!

>Did you just call JG brainless

  

I did :(     it was and accident and I'm claiming a senior moment :(

My profuse apologies to both JG and Brainless!  I would never wish to offend either of them - I have too much respect for them!

> No, she'd got my post mixed up with that of another poster, who has the username 'Brainless'! There was no offence intended or taken! :-D

LOL JG, we often have similar ideas, but not yet been confused with each other.

A behaviourist is the best bet - in my view there are too many confusing views on here :)  no offence to anyone but it must be difficult for the original poster.

The behaviourist must be reputable, or they could make things worse, so my suggestion would be to try:

http://www.apbc.org.uk/regions.php

http://www.puppyschool.co.uk/uk_train.php (may be able to help)

http://www.apdt.co.uk/trainers_area.asp?area=Middlesex (not all will be experienced behaviourists as this is primarily a training organisation).

I have 2 Cavaliers and this is most definitely not typical - a few weeks ago I gave them a treat of a raw bone each and even when I went to take those away after a while, something that high value, they didn't make any protest. I gave them a little treat to say thanks, but no way was it an even swap! I would do as the OP decided and take the puppy back to the vet and make absolutely certain he is not in any pain that could be making him grumpy. Then I would call in a good behaviourist who will be able to assess his body language and give you appropriate advice. I have a friend with a cocker who had resource guarding issues in his youth, luckily she is an expert and knew how to solve the problem, she is on here as LurcherGirl and may be able to give you some general advice, but you really need someone there on the scene to explain exactly what is going on.

Lucy,

It would appear that, because our dogs don't growl at us (and for me that's a lot of dogs over many, many years) we are in danger of being bitten.It would seem that our dogs have no way of warning us of their unhappiness and intent and will 'jump to stage BITE' without passing go ..so to speak.

Who would have thought that we would be told this about our Cavaliers?

Well, I know Henry is capable of biting because he doesn't get on with my other male dog, a Yankee - but I really can't imagine him ever biting a human over possession. I am sure some Cavaliers can be possessive as can any breed, but not my two! :-)

Toolz,

Believe it or not, there are dogs in every breed who are 'untypical' in type or temperament or both ;)  whether this is just an anomaly, like mismarkings, or due to breeding or lack of early socialisation or training is something we'll probably never know.  What is apparent is that the original poster's dog is not behaving in a typical way for a Cavalier so he must be treated like any other dog who is showing that he is uncomfortable  with what his owner is trying to do. 

It's entirely possible that with your obvious experience over the years that you unconsciously train your dogs to accept everything you want them to, simply through the way you interact with them.  It's also possible that you don't do many things that would push them into feeling possesive mainly because you understand them.   I know I do ;)    I am often gobsmacked at people I know who complain about their dogs behaviour, they really don't understand the way dogs work/think, but either won't acknowledge what they do or just can't see it or understand it :(

Not sure I've put this in a coherent way tonight, hope you can understand what I'm trying to say/