>why is it a big mistake?

Oh dear, where to start?

Given the chance, any animal will choose to stick closest to the familiar; think about when you go abroad on holiday - do you choose to spend the most time with people whose language you speak, or do you go into the wilds and try to learn a foreign language? So two puppies will bond closer with each other (same vocal language, same body language etc) than with their human (ie alien) owners.

Two puppies together isn't twice the work of one, it's squared! How do you know which one made the puddle? How do you know which one chewed the skirting board? Reputable behaviourists say that, to get the same dog/human relationship as a single puppy would, for each 5 minutes the pups spend together they need to spend 15 minutes interacting separately with their owners. If that can't be done they must be separated and alone. Not many families can do that.

which is laudable but why oh why did you breed this bitch then?

in my experience there are 2 kind of breeder- breeders who breed for the betterment of their breed and those who do so for money.

the first kind health test, study genetics, search for years for the right stud, show to ensure their bitch is suitable or very carefully choose a non show standard bitch for other reasons, ensure they know the breed inside and out and spend a fortune doing all of the above.

the other kind tend to take an over bred breed, breed unregistered animals, untested animals, and not home them terribly sensibly.

so if it wasn;t for the money and it wasn;t for the breed then why?

Think i have read enough, i am off to bed before i lose the will to live too!

this is why I would never offer a pup in lieu of a stud fee.  In my breed, a litter of one or two is the norm, so that molded it as well, but to see this, wow.

i have never offered POL because i only breed to keep and obviously i want the best puppy for myself, and i agree after reading this complete thread - oh dear!
good night everyone :)

well that just about says it all
another BYB

i hope your poor bitch is spayed and those pups end up in good homes, not where they too will be bred from
as for selling brother and sister together,not a good idea

oh great
you breed dogs to support  a charity
i have heard it all now

>i was also starting to think this was a wind up

I thought this when I read the post shortly after it was posted, there are certain pieces of information included that look like 'hooks'.  I have just caught up with thread and cannot believe how it developed.  If it is a wind up they must be rubbing their hands with glee.

I have followed this thread with interest and as my views and opinions had been stated by other posters I did not feel the need to post.

However now I have found this is my breed I am totally fuming and really had to put in my 2p worth!!!!!!!

All you have to do is look at rescue centres to see how many are in need of a home having been bred by (in the main) irresponsible breeders, then sold (in the main) for profit to completely clueless new owners.  In the main these are the working type rather than the show type.

I have one question for the OP - WHY????????????????????????????

That been said it is now done and the pups are here!

My advice would be to go and visit the owner of the stud, spend some time with them and see for yourself how they interact with their dogs.  This will either put your mind at rest and you will be happy for the pup to go to them, or confirm your suspicions.  If after this you do not wish the pup to go to him, talk, advise him of your concerns and ask if you can negotiate some other method of payment for the stud service.

You have acted in an extremely irresponsible manner and I personally also blame the breeder who allowed you to have a bitch from them in the first place, do they even know about this litter??  I would suspect not.

After this litter has gone, please have your bitch spayed and do not even consider breeding again until you have seriously wised up.

With regards to two puppies going to the same home, in principal I agree with the other posters comments.  It can although work BUT only if they go to a very, very experienced owner and not just the first person waving a wad of cash at you.

With regards to the comment that a pup would be returned to the OP when reaching adolescence- judging by the way they had acted so far do you really think they would help!!

I am just hoping (in a way) that this is a wind up - if it is it really is not funny!!!!!!

no i dont breed dogs to support a charity  i wanted to donate to the Cystic Fibrosis Trust as my two children have the disease and it carrys an average life expectancy of 31 and my children are 23 and 21!!! that was a spiteful comment to make. How would you like to watch your children grow up and die?  My daughters lost 5 friends to this awful disease and they were all under 23!!!!

With all due respect, my son suffers from Downs Syndrome, which means his life expectancy could only be in his twenties. I also breed dogs. However, the two are totally seperate issues. If I wanted to raise money for Downs Syndrome, I would hold a charity ball, or sponsored walk/sky dive/marathon etc. I would not chose to exploit my dogs for this purpose.

I am assuming as your bitch is not registered, the appropriate health tests have not been done either? Do you realise that if any of your puppies prove to have health problems in the future you can be held legally liable for costs incurred by the owner, (could run into thousands) as you did not do all you could to prevent future health problems in the puppies you bred?

The fact you think no 'proper' stud dog owner would touch your bitch with a barge pole suggests you were fully aware that what you were doing was unethical and wrong.

it was a magical experience and i loved very minute of it. 

Wasn't going to join in on this, but can't help myself.

Would it have been such a magical experience if your bitch had died. All sorts can go wrong when breeding and breeding should never happen in such a haphazard way, using a dog just because no responsible breeder would allow their dog to be used on your bitch is wrong, the word 'responsible' is self-explanatory.

I like others didn't want to join in on this discussion, but haveing had my own bad experience on this forum i would like to add my own thoughts.
People like me post on this website to gain advice from established breeders.  All that was being asked of the OP was some advice, she may of made a mistake and hopefully will have learn from it.  But at the end of the day, she only had the pup's best interests at heart (isn't that what is important now).  People on here are all to quick to jump to conclusions and some of the comments made can be quite hurtful. 
If 'hobby breeders'  can not gain advice from good estabished breeders, how are we supposed to learn.  I myself have been put off asking for any advice.  I only come on here to have a read of other posts to see what I can learn. 

> why is it a big mistake

Have you read the articles at the head of the breeding board?

> If 'hobby breeders'  can not gain advice from good estabished breeders

Hobby breeders are the established breeders who breed with breed improvement in mind, those who take a litter from a bitch simply because they can and want to are not hobby breeders but realy little better than small scale puppy farmers/commercial breeders.

The largest source of rescue dogs is the one off litter rather than the large scale producer, as there are far more of these than any other type of breeding.  Both kinds of breeders do not take responsibility fro pups long term.

I had a call on Monday night and within half an hour ahd back an 8 year old bitch I bred 8 years ago, grossly overweight, whose owner had not kept in touch and passed her onto someone 3 weeks ago rather than get in touch with me, but as she is tattooed she has got back to me.

even a 'newbie' breeder would know not to breed from an unregistered, untested bitch

If 'hobby breeders'  can not gain advice from good estabished breeders, how are we supposed to learn.

crofty - the problem is breeding isn't a game or a 'try and see', it is about life, living breathing, creatures being brought into the world.

I love it when people come and ask advice, they can drive myself and others mad with question after question to find out all about breeding, what it entails, what to do when things go wrong, we are all really happy to oblidge and help, that is what all established breeders on the site enjoy doing more than anything passing on knowledge etc.

However, playing at breeding and doing it without getting prior knowledge that is a choice that some make and it is usually detrement to the pups and bitches happiness and sometimes lives, of course we are going to say that we disapprove, it would be irresponsible of us not to, there are right ways and wrong ways of doing things, those who do these things seem to find their way on site afterwards, why not before to gain that knowledge.

However, we do still help and offer our advice as the pups and bitches welfare are more important than what we sometimes think, but of course for the sake of others reading who often just cruise the site, it is important to always state what should have been done, many learn from posts just like this just the same. :-)

I absolultley agree MorganB, but unfortunatley the world does not work like that.  As we all know smoking is no good to any of us (i don't before anyone starts) but there are those that do, knowing full well it is no good for them.

At the end of the day, we all know what is right and wrong, whether its our own health or our animals.  The point is not everyone takes this on board and will do their own thing. Who are we to pass judgement! I would like to think we could still give good advise, Can't we!!

> I had a call on Monday night and within half an hour ahd back an 8 year old bitch I bred 8 years ago, grossly overweight, whose owner had not kept in touch and passed her onto someone 3 weeks ago rather than get in touch with me, but as she is tattooed she has got back to me.

oh god barbara what a nightmare, so glad you managed to get her back though!

to the op, would you do the same for your pups?

Thank you Carrington, I do appreciate your comments. 

The one and only reason to breed is to improve the breed.  This means being confident your bitch is actually good enough to consider taking a litter from, performing all the health checks relevant to your breed, carefully choosing a stud.  The first person you should speak to when trying to decide whether to breed is the breeder of your bitch.  This is responsible breeding.

People who own a pet dog and take no part in any of the doggy persuits such as either showing, obedience, working, agility etc.... in my opinion should be discouranged from breeding.

What exactly did you mean by hobby breeder?  What is your motivation for breeding?

Pet owners take litters from their bitch for a variety of reasons the main three I have heard are:-

1. We want to produce another just like her - then go to her breeder and buy another with the same lines!
2.  It's good for the bitch to have at least one litter - absolute codswallop
3.  Money - I would say the majority fall into this category

The reason so many people get jumped on is because they ask questions that should have been considered way way before they arrived in the situation they found themselves in. 

I do agree though sometimes things can go a little too far and verge on insulting This can discourage people from asking questions and stumbling blindly on.  However this is a public forum and as new people in dogs will find out, breeders, owners, exhibitors who take their dogs seriously are passionate about their dogs and this is why sometimes tempers flare.

Wasn't going to add to this as cannot quite beleive what I have read but I noticed on one of DB's posts that she has actually mated brother and sister!!! Bang head against brick wall methinks

> I love it when people come and ask advice, they can drive myself and others mad with question after question to find out all about breeding, what it entails, what to do when things go wrong, we are all really happy to oblidge and help, that is what all established breeders on the site enjoy doing more than anything passing on knowledge etc.
>
> However, playing at breeding and doing it without getting prior knowledge that is a choice that some make and it is usually detrement to the pups and bitches happiness and sometimes lives

couldn;t agree more carrington. if people ask before they start they can avoid so much distress.

for all those who believe that we're all out to just berate people thats not true at all. case in point is one of the posters on the site was considering breeding her unregistered, undersized staffie, came and asked about it and we gave advise and based on that she changed her mind and had her girl spayed. it was great to have a sensible person come on and seek advise before jumping in and risking her bitch and i greatly admire this poster for for making that decision (she knows who she is :)), not only that but she went on to rescue a pregnant bitch and asked millions of questions about the pregnancy and labour which were all answered fully and helpfully. she gave it consideration and careful thought before jumping into things and was very willing to learn for the sake of her dogs and put real effort into raising her litter.

think that this case was a good example that we don;t just berate people, we get upset when we see dogs being abused. its also an example to keep up the hope of the rest of us, not everone out there lacks common sense!

you forgot "to show my kids the miracle of birth"

Where Floradora?  I didn't read that.

Crofty

This is why I often don't answer on these posts, as I sometimes believe that people do get a bit of a roasting when all they did is ask for advice. However, to breed from an unregistered bitch to a dog that you don't really know, and actually believe that it isn't looked after properly is irresponsible. I have to presume that none of the health tests were done on the dog or bitch, so therefore they potentially could have been breeding dogs that will cause great heartache and massive Veterinary bills for the new owners and potentially life threatening illnesses in the puppies so they don't get a good quality of life. That is what good breeding is all about, having the health and welfare of the puppies at heart. Most of the breeders on here are just upset at someone who has just haphazardly gone ahead to breed and is now moaning at the consequences. It is because they care that they get so fired up.

Don't think is was a sibling mating - she bred her bitch to her daughters dog's brother

I think this is an example of posting too quick and not fully reading the thread!!! :-o

Yes, I think you have misread Floradora.

with due respect
i know people with disabled children , they find ways of surporting charity and it is not by breeding their dogs
no i,m lucky my kids are fine and healthy but i would never bred to give to charity

I don't think the OP meant the total motivation for breeding the litter was to support charity - I feel she was trying to offer some justification for breeding by saying she had in the past donated puppy money to charity.  If I'm right I'm sorry but you ain't gonna get the sympathy vote although of course we are sorry for your childrens ill health - we all have problems in life!!  Also please do not try to justify what you have done - admit you've made a mistake and learn from it.

I feel this particular argument (charity, children etc..) should not be commented on further as it is totally irrelevant to the puppies who should remain the main focus and not just the one who's planned to go to the stud dog owner either.  Where are the other poor little souls going to end up - I suspect first one with cash. 

If you want to continue in the dog world do so but please give serious consideration to ever ever breeding again, and if you do ask yourself why am I doing this.  If money features in your decision it's the wrong one.

Well lets just summarise shall we?

Unregistered bitch,
flea ridden dog chosen last minute and for his proximity (and free at time of mating)
selling two pups together
the said puppy is destined as a birthday present for a child
breaking a stud contract
only breeding for a lovely experience! or charity  (give me strength)

She's yanking your chain and 3 pages have been spent on this wind up.......... (well lets hope to d*G it is.)
If she'd posted these facts straight up would you have wasted so much of your time and emotions typing all your replies? 

At least the pesky little trolls are harmless and no real dogs were harmed in their joke.

LOL ;-)

Lets hope so Toolz, let's hope so

i hate it when people do this its not happened to me but its still not right, instead of rushing out and using the only dog available you should have found a better dog and if need be waited until next time, you were obviously happy with the dog at the time or surely you wouldnt have used it? or would you? now you say it has fleas etc etc you agreed he could have a pup so you should stick by that agreement no matter what, and as for saying he has no money?? surely you dont or didnt have any money or else you would have paid him the stud fee?   and now i see that the bitch isnt even registered???? what are you doing??? your only purpose for breeding should be to better the breed not to be able to give money to charity line your own pockets or what ever else you can think of

But Tooolz,

Tut, Tut, they forgot to do the:

Bitch turning out to be 9+ years of age,
                    or
First mating 3 years ago at 9 months,
They missed out on the 3 dogs already owned by the OP turning out to being brothers and sister too.

There's time yet though....................  :-D

if it is a troll how very sad these people must be. have they nothing better to do with their time? i'd love to have the free time this person must have but i'd use it better... probably spending more time on my dog :) or sleeping...cooking... research

Perhaps they are Bulldogs at £1800 a throw..... well that would have 'put the cat amongst the pigeons'.

i still do think this is a wind up come on and to sell 2 puppys of different sexes to the same people DUH WHAT WERE YOU THINKING WOMAN of course there going to say they will be fixed how do yo know 100% they will not be bred together and do these people have any idea how hard it wil be to train 2 puppies at once i have 3 still here and it is a nightmare trying to get them to do anything well i think all has been said and i just think this woman has no sense at all i am no means a expert in breeding i have only had 1 litter and most know the story of that but i think it comes down to common sense really

Now to say that this person is a troll?  A liar?  A person with no better things to do than to make up a story???? 

You dont know if its true or not.  It very well could be a false story, but I for one, am not going to call this poster a liar, based on no supporting evidence.  If the poster diveated from her story, then fine, I could see how someone would say that, but from what I have read, this poster hasnt, and so to make such assumptions is cruel.

Type away Crespin.......... it's your time.

Bloody hell .....  i cant believe this thread is still going,  someone out there must have something more interesting we can all talk about!!!

Some of us are sitting here with their busted leg up...... and bored out of their skulls  :-)
Why else do you think?

even a 'newbie' breeder would know not to breed from an unregistered, untested bitch And don't forget who would go use an aledged flea infested stud knowing you wouldn't be wanting to use products on your bitch etc.. never mind at all.

Well lets just summarise shall we?

Unregistered bitch,
flea ridden dog chosen last minute and for his proximity (and free at time of mating)
selling two pups together
the said puppy is destined as a birthday present for a child
breaking a stud contract
only breeding for a lovely experience! or charity  (give me strength)

You sound like me Toolz :-D

Right folks I think we have reached the end of useful discussion :D