> btw, i'm sure you didn't intend it to but your post seems to suggest that the op lie in a legal situation about whether the stud was paid for.

Not at all i was answering your comment, you was the one who mentioned about the stud owner not being paid and i just made the point that how would that be proven in court?????
So no not suggesting at all for the op to lie about anything, on the contray i think she should tell him exactly why she doesnt want him to have a puppy and who knows like i said earlier hopefully they can come to an amicable agreement for the sake of that puppy that everyone seems to be forgetting is the most important thing here.

The simple fact of the matter is at the time of mating the breeder agreed a puppy in lieu of stud fee so that is what the stud owner is entitled to. 

At the very least they should be offered the full price of the puppy.

Fortunately in my breed the price of pups and stud fees are equal.

I would never offer a puppy in lieu of stud fee, but would pay the fee.  If the stud owner then wanted to buy a pup and I was happy to sell them one then that would be different, and the choice woudl be mine.

i agree that the stud owner should be given a fee, i am not suggesting she give him nothing, hopefully she will learn from her mistake!

MandyC for all your backtracking I think for all to see, as we all can read very well, you have been at the very least very unethical in your advice.

There are only two factual points with which the OP is backing out of giving the stud owner his pup.

1.  The daugther shows no interest, (Soooo...)
2.  The stud dog appears to have been un-vaccinated. (So what!)

Fleas, could have come from any source and been introduced into the OP's home even via her own dog, dogs can get fleas, ticks, ear mites at anytime, it does not constitue a bad owner or mistreatment of a dog and certainly not a reason for backing out of a contract.

Other people saying he does not look after his dog......... Never, ever, should anyone listen to other people, you judge yourself, you use your own eyes and decide.  The OP must have been happy with the look and health of the dog or she would not have mated her bitch, surely. Why is the dog deemed as such a disaster now and unkept and uncared for, it isn't and wasn't, obviously!

Never mind the legal standing, the stud owner deserves his pup, and should be given it on the 20th.

Mandyc, this post is not going in the wrong direction. Just because you dont agree doesnt mean it is wrong. I cut and paste the quote from your own post, so you cannot deny you said it, or accuse me of "twisting " it. ......by saying that the stud owner could not prove he hadnt received money, by definition you were inferring that the op could claim he had received it. The fact is that he DIDN'T receive a fee, and you know that perfectly well. So to pretend otherwise is a lie. Lying to a court is perjury, end of story.

i am quite aware of the original post as i seem to be the one that has to keep repeating what the original issue was!

how am i back tracking?????

i stand by my opinion that if not 100% about the home a puppy is going to regardless of reason i would not let that puppy go full stop!!!

Again i have to repeat for about the forth time, i am commenting on that fact as i do not know anything about either party, so if you can read very well then why have i repeated that several times, i have not seen the owner or his dog so do not pass judgement on a personal level just simply that if she is uncomfortable then dont let it go, had there been sufficient paperwork drawn up at the time then that would put her in a slightly different position i think.

the two points you mentioned i also feel have no relevance (my own dogs are not vaccinated yearly) but as stated before i would not put myself in that position. where exactly do you feel i have backtracked as when i read them back i stick to the same point all the way through - the puppy!

> stud owner has received no money for the service

a quote i think you will find 'pinklilies' by astarte, i was simply asking how this would be proven in court, so yes you are twisiting it pinklilies as you are putting my words into a completely different text. my reply was to astarte and nothing else - end of story!!!!!!!!!

This post is going in the wrong direction (and not because everyone doesnt agree with me for gods sake) because people are not sticking to the issue raised, people come on here for advice and others tear into people who give their opinion, i am going off this forum very quickly indeed.

this discussion has gone way off topic and is now a slanging match she made a mistake get over it the puppies are here now and they should be priority not whos dog she used sounds a bit like someone out to make money to me but who am i to speculate i dont know her and i think she should do what she feels best and learn from it or never breed again

> i stand by my opinion that if not 100% about the home a puppy is going to regardless of reason i would not let that puppy go full stop!!!
>
>

If the home was deemed suitable at time of mating then they should stand by the agreement.  Personally I would not enter into such and agreement because it does tie me into giving up a pup when for whatever reason I may later not want to give up.

no ones forgetting that mandy but if the puppy was promised as payment the op doesn;t have to many options. she either gives up the pup or convinces the stud owner to take the money.

I apologise back tracking, was the wrong phrasing, I meant to say side tracking the relevant issue picked up on was the illegal advice you have been giving which pinklillies has very much made a point of stating also which you very well know and obviously the unethical advice I was referring to, It has nothing to do with you having to repeat 4 times your opinion, purely the legal or rather illegal advice you keep giving. :-(

yes astarte i am in agreement that the stud owner should recieve a fee instead, obviously i dont agree with him getting nothing as he did after all provide her with a service. as i said earlier i just hope that she will learn from her mistake.

MandyC, think people are concerned that you are advising the OP to behave in a totally irresponsible and illegal manner you said
"As for court - tell him to get stuffed, he should have made sure he got something in writing and without it he hasn't got a leg to stand on, it would be his word against the bitch owners, he is at fault too as all he see was pound signs."

You also suggested that she said she had paid I believe and people have to correct and contradict your comments for the sake of the OP. I would have to say to the OP you have to stick to your original agreement unless you have proof that the stud dog owner is treating his stock in a manner that could cause him to be prosecuted. If that is the case then report him and you may then have support if you refuse to hand over the pup.

i have not given any illegal advice at all and quite frankly carrington i refuse to repeat myself again, go and read all the posts again and then tell me where i told the OP to lie in court.

Nova with regards to your quote of mine, yes that was in relation to someone who stated that if it went to court the stud owner would be guaranteed to win, my comment is how is that if there is nothing in writing then of course it would be only his or her word, again nowhere have i told the op to go to court and lie about money????

the two points you mentioned i also feel have no relevance (my own dogs are not vaccinated yearly

1.  The daugther shows no interest, (Soooo...)
2.  The stud dog appears to have been un-vaccinated

No relevance - are we reading the same post.

These are the only valid reasons the OP is not wishing to give the pup to the stud owner.

How on earth are they not relevant?

again carrington you take it all wrong, you stated the daughter shows no interest (soooo) and unvaccinated (so what) my point being that i agree with you that these are not relevant in what home the stud owner would provide.
and yes i think we are reading the same post :)

So, if you believe the reasons the OP has given are not relevant, why have you not also stated this to the OP and that the stud dog owner should have their pup, taking away those two reasons, there is no justification to refuse, no need for telling the OP to keep the pup is there?

i have not met the stud owner and can not comment on whether he will or will not be a good owner, my point is still that if she is not 100% happy (regardless of her reasons as each individual could have concerns for very different reasons) then she shouldnt part with the pup, but obviously offer him a fee instead. just my opinion it is after all her conscience she will have to answer to either way.

my bitch had been standing for 2 days, so she only probably had another day left.  I thought about phoning a proper breeder, but as my dog is not KC registered I dont think they will put their stud dogs with just any bitch (Although her mum is KC reg, but her dad wasnt) so she does have good lines

it is after all her conscience she will have to answer to either way.

Exactly, and someone who tries to back out of a verbal and on the stud owners part very trusting contract (for very weak reasons) should have a very heavy conscience indeed.

but as my dog is not KC registered

**Shakes head, and goes to bed***

WUM

either way there is a contract that is being broken by the OP.

if the agreement at the time was for a pup, then that should be upheld, of course the OP could discuss this with the stud owner to see if he would take monetary payment instead, but if he sticks to his guns then I don't see what recourse she has.

it isn't clear if the stud owner wanted a pup as payment to keep or sell on. That is not relevant, but to comment that the conditions are not right is unfair - he may have a home lined up to sell the pup too, which he can legally do!

Think if you were the stud owner, and you were expecting a pup....and then the bitch's owner reneged - how would you feel???

I've been approached for "last minute" stud duties - I have always refused as I don't know the people, don't know the bitch or relevant health tests, but if I did agree, and the agreement was for a pup, I would be mightily annoyed if the other party pulled out.

I'm not taking sides, I don't think either party has gone into this with enough thought....

>as my dog is not KC registered

Then she's a delightful pet, but not a brood bitch.

I can understand MandyC that you would not let a puppy go to any home you deemed unsuitable and would therefore never enter into an agreement that you would give a puppy in return for a service of a stud unless you were sure they you would be happy for the stud owner to have a puppy. This is not the situation being discussed here.

A verbal contract is just as binding as a written one, very often more so and in the absence of a receipt for money handed over at the time of the service or since then it is the bitch owner who would not have a leg to stand on and for her sake you should not encourage her to attempt to break her agreement with the stud owner.

it is after all her conscience she will have to answer to either way.

Well, from what the OP has said, she may also have to answer to a judge.......  

This whole mating sounds dubious, but we don't have the facts, so cannot judge fairly.  However, the OP may indeed not part with the pup if she is not 100% happy, however, the OP will have broken a contractual agreement and there will be a price to pay.  If they can come to an amicable agreement with the stud dog owner, then that would be good, but I would advise that they have to prepare for the worst, particularly if the stud dog owner is threatening legal action.

Hopefully this has been a lesson learned, as it certainly has shown one reason (of many) for why nobody should EVER breed from an unregistered bitch....... you CANNOT pick the most suitable stud!

but as my dog is not KC registered

just noticed this bit too.....

oh well

I don't think there's much more to be said :(

my daughters dog and the stud dog are brothers,they are 3.  My bitch sees my daughters dog every day, i think he is too much of a gentleman ;-) I left my bitch at my daughters for 2 days and he just kept crying, it was like he wanted to, but didnt quite know what to do/didnt want to hurt her.

I have been in touch with the studs owner, he is devastated, he came to our house last night, he had been crying! but like so many of you on here have said if im not 100% dont give the pup to him.  I feel awful, he has been round every saturday to visit him since he was 2 days old, and now ive told him he cannot have him.  I mean the pup is  meant to be for his daughters birthday next month, and she has lost interest before she has even got him!
Thanks for your nice reply x

the stud owner has realised im not willing to change my mind and has said he will take the stud fee instead (but he now hates me, which i guess is understandable) The stud fee is the same price as the pup

five of the puppies have loving homes to go to. The one couple are having 2 puppies, a boy and a girl (they are both being ''fixed'' as soon as they can be)

>The one couple are having 2 puppies,

BIG mistake; a nightmare scenario, to be honest. Be prepared to have at least one returned at adolescence.

PRoblem is he wanted a puppy (he had a dog stolen from his garden 18 months ago)

> but as my dog is not KC registered
>
>

god i wish i hadnt bothered with this post after reading that, i wish she had stated that at the beginning!!!

No sympathy for either then as they shouldnt have been breeding these dogs at all!

Also now more info has been brought to light, i think the OP may be getting in a fluster unnesscessarily now

As for selling a brother and sister - VERY bad idea :(

my bitch was on her 2nd day of ''standing'' and i know proper  breeders  will not put their prize stud with just any bitch

I have been in touch with the studs owner, he is devastated, he came to our house last night, he had been crying! but like so many of you on here have said if im not 100% dont give the pup to him

I think you are being very unkind :(

and the comments made about not giving the pup were made before knowing all the facts...

I just hope everything works out for all the pups

''it does make me concerned about what the pup will be used for in future'' what do you mean by that comment?
I have three dogs (all the same breed) 3 years ago i had a litter of puppies from my bitch and dog (they have since been ''fixed'')

A birthday puppy :-(  I hate that :-(

db - you seem to have totally gone about everything the wrong way.  It's such a shame because there are dogs lives to think of here. 

Lessons to be learned - Don't say anyone can have a pup before you are sure of them providing a suitable home.  Don't go with any old stud dog just because no-one else will take your bitch.  Don't sell puppies as presents.  Don't sell 2 puppies together.

It's all too late now, because it's all done, but hopefully you will have learnt these lessons and more.  People get very passionate on here because they care about animals.  Unfortunately (whether true or not) you have come across as totally irresponsible.  I disagree with some things said on this forum and do think some posters are sometimes a little harsh, but in this case, I have to agree - this is a big mess :-(

i know proper  breeders  will not put their prize stud with just any bitch

so you thought you'd breed your bitch that a 'proper breeder' would not entertain to any dog :-(     You left your bitch with your daughter's dog for TWO days - were they assisted at all?  If not it is a highly irresponsible and IMO unkind way to mate, and an extremely distressing thing to put your daughter's dog through. 

And you're worried about the stud dog not being a good enough owner....:-(

I'm sorry, but I can have no sympathy for your predicament and can only hope that if you ever breed again, you do so responsibly.

P.S.  I certainly think the poor man should be given his puppy, from what I have read :-(

I know ive messed up, but ive found wonderful homes for the other 5 puppies (two are going to the same home) and i will strive to find the perfect home for puppy number 6
Thanks for you nice comments x

You say two are going to the same home as if it's a good thing???  Have you actually read up on this or thought it through?  It's a big mistake.

daughter is 15 next month, i value that comment, i never thought of it like that (contract was not with her)

i really did not mean to offend db but given the haphazard way this mating seemed to be planned it seems like it was intended for profit not breed progression, please forgive me and correct me if i'm wrong. if this one was and makes money then i imagine having another would be tempting.

again i apologise if i offend and if i'm wrong, but thats how it came across to me.

why is it a big mistake?

Oh dear :-(

>why is it a big mistake?

I've just lost the will to live :-(

Is anyone else thinking this may be a wind up and that even a back street breeder could not be so poorly informed????

lol Jen, do you know, I was just going to post that I think this might be a wind up.  All a bit far fetched me thinks.

no it was not for profit atall. I have 3 dogs whom i love dearly. we had a litter 3 years ago from my elder dog and bitch. it was a magical experience and i loved very minute of it.  On both occasions i have donated almost four hundred pounds from the monies made and have donated it to the CYSTIC FIBROSIS TRUST (i have two children with this life-threatening-disease)

:( i was also starting to think this was a wind up