to cut a ong story short, my daughters dog would not perform with my bitch, so in desperation i contacted my daughters dogs brothers owner.  He did the deed, and it resulted in a litter of 6 beautiful puppies.  In the beinning we agreed he could have a puppy in exchange for his dogs services, but i have had a change of heart due to the fact that when he has been to visit the puppy with his daughter, his daughter has shown no real signs of interest in the puppy.  Its been dragging on for 6 weeks now and the pup is ready to go on sunday,  but im unwilling to let him have the puppy, as he even told my husband that his daughters not interested in the puppy. I only told him yesterday that i didnt want him to have the pup ooops!  he is now going on about getting a solicitor involved ''We had an agreement'' he said. Does the agreement stand if nothing is written down on paper, has he got a leg to stand on? (People have told me he doesnt look after the dog he has already) He slipped up the other day when i asked him if his dog was vaccinated, and he said to his daughter ''we had Reggie vaccinated didnt we?'' and his daughter said ''NO'' and he went purple! Even when he came to our house he infested our dog with fleas, Im convinced he doesnt worm him regulary either.  Also, he is meant to be having the pup on the 10th and yet his vaccinations are not booked until the 30th (does that tell me he cannot really afford them?) I just dont want the pup to have a miserable life couped up in a tiny garden bored to tears, and never walked.
PLEASE HELP I REALLY NEED SOME ADVICE,IVE CRIED MYSELF TO SLEEP,I KNOW I SHOULD HAVE TOLD HIM AT THE BEGINNING, BUT IM TOO NICE A PERSON,HOW CAN YOU TELL SOMEONE TO THEIR FACE''YOU DONT LOOK LIKE YOU EVEN LIKE THE PUP JUDGING BY THE LOOK ON YOUR FACE''

Can I ask if the dog was in such an unhealthy state and from what you've said, not really loved & cared for, did you use it at stud?  Surely if you could see that then, why agree to let him have a puppy back?

There are a couple of bits of your post I don't understand. :-o You say:

>Its been dragging on for 6 weeks now and the pup is ready to go on sunday, 

then

>he is meant to be having the pup on the 10th

The next 10th is in August - several weeks away! In which case there's plenty of time to convince him he'd rather have the price of a puppy instead.

my daughters dog would not perform with my bitch, so in desperation i contacted my daughters dogs brothers owner.  He did the deed

enough said!!!

Too true Sam !

Why did you use him if he was not cared for properley could you not have gone elsewhere ?

In response to the question that is being asked, i had a similar problem in that i didnt want to hand over the pup, i offered to give them the cost of a pup instead but they still said no. Few weeks after receiving the puppy i saw an advert for them selling it on, they sold it for less than what i offered them (bet they were kicking themselves) they wouldnt tell me the new owners details so i was frantic. Eventually i got their details (not from them) and they are a loving family that take lots of care of her thankgod. But what i suggest is, offer them money a cost of a pup, if they say no, rumble up some rubbish and scare tactics about him not looking after his dog properly and that you will not give him a puppy and will contact the rspca over his dogs welfare. Get him to sign something accepting these terms for just the money.

Also tbh if he cant afford jabs, who does he think he is kidding getting a solictor (my grandad is having a messy divorce and the initial fee was £800, so hes trying to scare you saying this, so turn it around on him and be strong), doesnt sound like the kinda bloke that would have a clue and if no written evidence and no proper terms and you have the dogs welfare at heart he should just accept the money as run off with his tail between his legs. Also with your daughters dog, is he not that old? Dont force him sometimes these things have to happen naturally as i found out myself and putting pressure on things makes it worse for all parties involved and people panic.

Hope this helps.

Are you wanting the keep the pup, i presume pol? or just want to sell her/him to a good home

Louise x

You shouldn't have done this in the first place BUT you have, and now you are in the position you are in.  So now you need to do the right thing by all these dogs and find them the best possible homes.  Tell him straight, make something up, whatever, just let him know it aint happening!!

Then just don't let the guy have the pup... your choice, you don't have to make excuses in my opinion...
just say you've changed your mind.. end of.
Out of interest may I ask what breed?

>Out of interest may I ask what breed?

Naming the breed would be seen as advertising the puppies, TT, and the thread would be removed forthwith.

Perhaps the fact that the initials of the OP resemble  LouiseDDB may indicate the same breed ?! They are certainly seem to be one of the 'cash cow' breeds this year.

i would not give him the pup if nothing is written down what proof does he have verbal agreements are nothing if you know that  they dont really want the dog then you would only be worrying constantly about wether it is ok i wouldnt do it personally

I think you may have guessed by the replies that on the whole non of us would let a pup go if we were not 100% certain of the home...I am assuming you have a rescue policy of your own and are willing to take back your own pups? so why let one go to a home when you are already concerned that it will not be wanted? If he is being queer about it just offer him the equivilant of the price of a pup and walk away,  if he wishes to take it further then let him. Maybe you should make your FINAL offer of payment in a letter and have it delivered to him by recorded delivery. I doubt very much if he will take it further but if he does just stick to your guns and your morals about homing pups in good well vetted families.
Hope you have thought a little more about what can go wrong now in dog breeding? Make sure you only use reputable people if you should breed again. Just a thought...if he cannot afford jabs them did he have his male health checked? if not you should never have entertained using him in the first place.
I do not know your breed but remember that your new puppy owners have redress to you if they have hereditary health problems with thier new pups!! Buyer beware is old hat now and Joe piblic is much better informed of YOUR responcibilities towards what you breed.
Aileen.

I'm sorry, but I am one of those people who believe that if you make an agreement, you make an agreement.

I would have total sympathy if this were a potential owner purchasing one of my pups whom I later found to be unsuitable I would fight all the way, but this is a used stud dog agreement, you can't swap and change the terms, the stud dog was good enough to use for you if the stud dog is good enough then the arrangement was too.

Give them their pup! 

Sorry Carrington but I have to dissagree. The OP has a greater responcibility to her pup, I would never let a pup go to a home I was not 100% happy with.
Maybe she made some huge bad decission using this dog but she must still take all precautions towards ensuring the pup is well homed. Would you really let one of your pups go to a home you were worried about? Somehow I feel you would not! The pup never asked to be born it was innocent in the initial act but it now has a life and a need to be protected, and the person to do that is the breeder...no matter who's toes she steps on.
Aileen.

That is why a breeder needs to be responsible, that starts in choosing the correct stud dog, not just for lines and temperament/build/health etc matching purposes, but for quality. The OP was not worried whilst mating her dog, that is when she needed to be responsible, she was not worried when offering a pup in exchange at the time it did not matter then did it?

Truth is if the stud dog owner wishes to take her to court..... he'll definitely win, there was a verbal contract, the stud was good enough to mate with, and DNA proof can be shown that the mating occured, the OP has given no real reason in which a judge would not wish to honour that verbal contract, this is not like a normal puppy selling agreement, the stud owner does not need to impress our breeder here.

If we wish to get techincal they are just as entitled to the pups as the breeder, we make agreements for a stud fee or a pup in exchange for a dogs genes, it is too late afterwards and entilely the OP's fault in using the stud dog and making an agreement in the first place.

How would you feel if you were the owner of a stud dog, made an agreement and the breeder went back on it.

I am all for caring for my pups and them going to the best homes, but I would never, ever choose a stud in this way, that is the OP's fault in doing so, I'm sure that the pup will be perfectly fine and dandy the stud obviously was in good enough condition to be asked for use.

Sorry, but this is a really bad way to do business, (whether we like it or not, it was a business contract, verbal or written) I don't like dishonesty and what the OP is doing is very dishonest.

I agree that the OP made a very bad mistake using this dog but if she is willing to offer money instead of a pup then she is in my opinion not renaging on an agreement. There may have been no pups surviving or not the correct sex and so the dogs owner would have taken the money then so why the difference?
I feel an animals life is at stake here and I for one would fight all the way to ensure it had the best I could give it and if that meant going to court over it then I would. However like you Carrington I would hope my breeding practices are much better and I would not end up in this situation.
Just one more pitfall for the unwary, or irrisponsible breeder to fall into!
Aileen.

i'm actually inclined to agree. i do worry for the pup going to an unsuitable owner but given what the op has told us i'd have concerns about it staying with them as well.

sorry db, i don't mean to offend, but a mating is supposed to be the product of much study and consideration, its a very very serious undertaking and this does not appear to have been the case. it does make me concerned about what the pup will be used for in future.

its all well and good being polite, personally i really belive in manners, but when its the animals you are responsible for i would 1) have said get your infested and poor condition dog away from my bitch! she's only mating with the very best! and 2) said and you certainly cannot have one of my babies.

Have to agree with Carrington, if it goes to court the owner of the stud will win, you made a contract with him and he has a right to collect. Your only hope is to persuade him that he would be better off taking the money, you could hang onto the pups until they have their first jabs but after that you will have to fulfil the contract.

as he even told my husband that his daughters not interested in the puppy. I only told him yesterday that i didnt want him to have the pup ooops!  he is now going on about getting a solicitor involved

Whether the daughter's interested in the pup or not, the stud dog owner obviously is, so much so he is talking solicitors, this is not someone who is not interested in a pup. He obviously wants these lines and the pup as he would have just taken the money instead. It seems to me that the pup certainly is wanted.

''we had Reggie vaccinated didnt we?'' and his daughter said ''NO'' and he went purple!

He may just have slipped up on the vaccination, but again this should have been asked at the time of using the stud. He is as stated having the pup vaccinated on the 30th pups are ok for their first vaccination upto 12 weeks anyway, or it may coincide with days off etc to get to the vet?

Im convinced he doesnt worm him regulary either.

This is nothing more than hearsay.

I just dont want the pup to have a miserable life couped up in a tiny garden bored to tears, and never walked.


Yet again, where does this statement come from again, just speculation,

There is nothing hear to break the agreement over, the pup may well have a very happy and fullfilling life, sometimes it is easy to paint a black picture when it really is not like that at all.

I think our OP has got herself into a state, needs to talk properly to the stud owner, visit him at home and hear his plans for the pup, maybe that will make her feel better, but regardless his solicitor quite rightly will have a case to seize this pup. It would be better for the OP that they are friends and she tries to look at things in a different light.

This may be a rethorical question but did he sign the KC litter form ?

I cannot see whether a dog being vaccinated or not is a cause for concern ? What difference would it make to his pedigree or genetic contribution to the puppies ?

As you have allowed his dog to produce a litter with your bitch & agreed a puppy in lieu of stud fee he does have a verbal contract with you for one of the puppies-contracts do not have to be in writing & perhaps before breeding from your bitch you should have consider other dogs rather than your daughetr's male & his brother.

My Grand Dad had the saying "Act in haste, regret at leisure"

i fully agree with merlot, yes this person has made a BIG mistake but lets not pretend we are all perfect here!
she has come on here for help not abuse (as usual in my experience!!!)

The most important thing in this matter is the welfare of the puppy, so because she has messed up some of you are saying that thats just tough luck on the poor innocent puppy - i think thats a terrible attitude from so called responsible breeders (and before you say it, no this person has not by any means been responsible and i dont condone what she has done, but it is done now,  i dont care who gets upset - the pup is paramount. By giving this other moron the puppy she could condemn the poor little mite to a life of misery :( cant see the logic behind alot of the comments made on here at all!

As for court - tell him to get stuffed, he should have made sure he got something in writing and without it he hasnt got a leg to stand on, it would be his word against the bitch owners, he is at fault too as all he see was pound signs.

to the original poster - good luck and i hope everything works out - whatever you do please DONT give him that puppy!

As for court - tell him to get stuffed, he should have made sure he got something in writing and without it he hasnt got a leg to stand on, it would be his word against the bitch owners, he is at fault too as all he see was pound signs.


Please do not give advice that is incorrect -

Also if the stud owner only saw £ signs, he would have taken MONEY!

she has come on here for help not abuse (as usual in my experience!!!)



No-one here has been abusive in any way, infact MandyC yours is the first post that is anywhere close. :-(

sorry i meant this sunday the 20th

If he is refusing money then he could be seeing £ in the bigger picture, get this little puppy bitch, oops they mated father and daughter nevermind i can still make money. Thats what people like this do.

My own post was the first one after 5 responses to offer advice, others were critisizing. ''Why have you mated him to your bitch'' blah blah, whats done is done. Im sure the OP will have learnt with the nights shes cried herself to sleep. She will have to have her wits about her and oursmart him, doesnt seem such a bright upstanding member of society, and i dont think one such as himself will take all the trouble to go to court when he can just have the price of a pup and leave. In hindsight, she was just in too much of a rush to have puppies. We all learn somewhere and non of us are perfect.

It's a really really hard situation and I can see both sides.  Yes, a verbal contract is legally binding (though not always easy to prove), and yes in theory you should give him the pup as this is the arrangement you made and you should have made sure when you agreed to it that you were happy for him to have a puppy.  You didn't though, and we all make mistakes (don't I know it!!). 

I can see the other side too that if you really aren't happy it will be hard to let pup go.  But since my last post and having read everyone's replies, particularly Carrington's I really don't see that you have a lot of choice.  He could get very nasty if you refuse. 

I think I would do all I could to persuade him not to have pup without actually trying to enforce it and getting his back up. 

I also wonder how much of what you say about him is true, and not just speculation.  Do you know for a fact his dogs don't get walked?  Have you visited and seen where pup will be living?  Maybe he delayed the vet appointment from the 20th to the 30th to let pup settle in first.  Who knows.  We all go about things in different ways.  How about you ask to go round there - you never know, it might put your mind at ease - you might be over-worrying like I do ;-)

I may be wrong , but I have not read anywhere where the OP has offered the stud dog owner  any monetary compensation instead of the puppy..have you actually offered his a stud fee instead of the pup, or have you just decided  from word of mouth, that you dont want to let him have a puppy,  or a stud fee??

Surely if his dogs are in such bad condition, and you saw evidence of them being mistreated.... you should have pulled back from using his dog... I do wonder from what you say  about vaccinations and  such, if he  has  done the relevant health tests for your breed...did you ask to see any certificates of health testing.

I have to say the fact his daughter is not interested in a puppy ( how old is she)   should not make the slightest  difference to whether he is capable of bringing a puppy up... after all you did not make the contract with his daughter,   you made it with him...
and to my mind unless you see 100% proof of his mistreatment of his dogs...  you have no reason to hang on to his pup.

>sorry i meant this sunday the 20th

At the vets where I work the first vaccination isn't given until 8 weeks of age, and only then as long as the pup (or kitten) has been in its new home for a week, to allow it to recover from the stress of moving, which can make vaccination more risky. So if the pup goes on the 20th it wouldn't be vaccinated until the 27th at the earliest - the 30th isn't that much later.

Even so, have you offered him the full market price of a puppy as a conventional stud fee in lieu of a puppy?

If he is refusing money then he could be seeing £ in the bigger picture, get this little puppy bitch, oops they mated father and daughter nevermind i can still make money. Thats what people like this do.


This is a terrible thing to say about someone that no-one knows, this poor stud dog owner is having their name blackened right left and centre here, none of us know him or the OP, we can and should only go on the simple facts, the OP may have everything completely wrong about the stud dog owner, it is all just speculation and others jumping on the band wagon, and deciding that this pup would have a terrible life with him, there is nothing in absolute black and white to show this, only speculation and now the poor guy is going to breed father to daughter too.  

Let's all just stick to the facts, A mated B, pups arrive. A agreed to a pup, took no stud fee, so obviously was taking a pup, end of.

>If he is refusing money then he could be seeing £ in the bigger picture, get this little puppy bitch, oops they mated father and daughter nevermind i can still make money. Thats what people like this do.

Seeing that in the original post the puppy is referred to as being MALE

>he is meant to be having the pup on the 10th and yet his vaccinations are not booked until the 30th"

you seem to be a bit off beam there, Louise, and indulging in fantastic speculation.

Do we know if this is in fact a bitch puppy? It may be relevant.

Which owner would be the better...... the OP who will breed her bitches to any old flea bitten local and convenient dog
OR
The stud dog owner who obviously thinks that the puppy is worth more than a stud fee?

Six of one and half dozen of the other IMO.
Poor puppy.

Stop picking on peoples post and give advise. Oh no i missed out one word big deal. Fantastic speculation maybe.

If she has any doubts whatsoever on the life of this pup as we would all in offering one to a home then we wouldnt allow it to go there whats the difference with a POL. She does have her side of the agreement to uphold but she doesnt care about that, all she cares for is the pup, just offer him money PRICE OF A PUPPY and say ''your not having the pup after what i have seen they with way you treat your dog'' take it or leave it. Is he really going to spend money on court proceedings i dont think so, if apparantly he cant care about his dog that much he will have the same attitude towards the pup.

>Oh no i missed out one word big deal.

It proves the importance of sticking to facts and not letting our imaginations run away with us, especially when we only have one side of the story.

> As for court - tell him to get stuffed, he should have made sure he got something in writing and without it he hasnt got a leg to stand on, it would be his word against the bitch owners, he is at fault too as all he see was pound signs.
>

er...a verbal contract has legal standing so your wrong. and if he's wanting a pup what are you talking baout pound signs? surely you get more pound signs from being paid for a stud?

> As for court - tell him to get stuffed, he should have made sure he got something in writing and without it he hasnt got a leg to stand on, it would be his word against the bitch owners, he is at fault too as all he see was pound signs.

???? Er no a simple DNA test would prove his dog is the father of the puppies & as no money changed hands(ie Op has no receipt for the stud fee) it would be up to the OP to prove she had paid for the dogs services which resulted in her bitch having the litter

MandyC you are as in the dark about the stud's owner as we are & in no position to give advice that he will be a bad owner just the same as others are in no position to say that he will be a good one.

> My own post was the first one after 5 responses to offer advice, others were critisizing

no they were not, they were generally fairly sensible questions- e.g. if the dog was in good enough condition to stud why are you worried about the pups welfare? which is perfectly fair and reasonable and may have helped the op realise they were panicing over nothing OR make them realise that if they breed again they should actually think about it. people do learn from mistakes, but often times they need to be taught what the mistake was

LouiseDDB Thats what people like this do. People like who do? 

What a thing to say based on comments from a breeder who basically mated a bitch to someone's dog in a must mate situation that she admittedly claims was .

The breeder contacted the stud as a last min emergency, choose to NOT pay for a stud, has severely criticised the stud dog owner without real foundation and you are saying that is what people like the stud dog owner do..  yes she may want to back out now but I say this will teach her a very hard lesson, one I think she clearly deserves.  Bare in mind the stud dog owner at least trusted her to give her the stud without payment.

To be honest I am gobsmacked at some of the comments.

The breeder herself sadly in my eyes is far more irresponsible that anyone.   

No wonder stud dog owners feel the need to be more tougher and less trusting with fellow breeders.

Rightly or wrongly the behaviour of the stud dog owner the breeder in my eyes has done far worse.

Being honest, I would be suprised if the stud dog owner would accept the stud fee and rightly why should he.  It would be the puppy or the FULL price of a puppy. 

I hope nobody can every work out who the parties are involved her or the stud dog owner may be looking for more than the price of a pup but damages.

We all learn somewhere and non of us are perfect.

Nobody has to be perfect BUT if you loved your bitch and were at the very least a responsible caring dog owner then common sense would tell you the last thing you would  do to your precious  bitch mate it to is a flea infested dog, and in such hurried circumstances. 

People can have their cake and eat it and to be fair LouiseDDB perhaps this has hit a nerve as I may be wrong but were you not in a similar situation.

People should mate responsibly and at the very least pay their way.

Poor puppy

Hit it on there Nail Tooolz.  

What are you talking about????????

in my breed a stud fee can be considerably lower than a price of a puppy so if he was offered for example £500 stud fee but could have POL and sell that pup for a possible £1200-£1500 that is much more ££££££££££sssssss is it not!

Of course a verbal contract has some standing but proving it is a different matter, so i am very clear as to what i am talking about thanks!

Sorry but to me it doesn't look as though you went into this correctly right from the start, everything about this mating stinks.  Give him the puppy, if you cared that much at the start you wouldn't of used the dog if he was flea ridden etc.

i am not judging the stud dogs owner at all just simply stating that if the bitch owner is not comfortable with where that puppy will go then DO NOT give it to him. i wouldnt care who i upset if i didnt feel 100% happy then that puppy wouldnt go, it is a breeders responsiblity to do the best they can to find a good home.

really? well not in all breeds and since we do not know the breed that statement cannot be made.

proving it? lets see... dna tests prove the dog is the father, stud owner has received no money for the service...doesn't sound like to much of a push to me.

> it is a breeders responsiblity to do the best they can to find a good home

and an appropriate stud...

There are consequences in this world....
screw up......take the consequences......learn from it.

This is meant to be a information exchange...but it is supplied by people who are volunteering information they gleened the hard way.

It is to be expected, surely, that it may rankle a little, when expected to 'clean up' problems which we disapprove of.

Just wish I could zap that pup out of there.

yes really, and i was making that point to you as it was you that pulled me up on it, i stated very clearly IN MY BREED not all breeds so of course i can make that comment.

yes dna tests prove the sire of the litter, but how can you prove he hasnt recieved any money? if paid in cash, plus it is not the proof of who sired the litter but the proof of what was agreed that would be needed so seems a big push to prove who said what at the time of the mating to me!

you are missing the point altogether anyway, i am not making any personal comments about the stud owner as i dont know him or her for that matter but my opinion is based on the situation she is faced with now and i personally would not hand over that puppy (but of course i would never put myself in that situation in the first place).
of course it is the breeders responsibility to find a suitable stud and if you read properly i stated i dont condone what she has done but the point being IT IS DONE and now there is a puppy to consider :(

i hope they can come to an amicable solution for the sake of that poor baby!

mandy can i ask why all your points seem to get so upset? they have perviously as well. no one is attacking you or arguing with you, its a discussion.

i did not mean "really?" to suggest your lying, just as "really? thats interesting".

the point i was making is that if the dog was good enough to be a stud then why is she unhappy to have this person take a puppy? potentialy the op is rather freaking out now about the re-homing in case she does a bad job (i know that that kind of responsibility would certainly stress me out) and by raising the idea that she approved at mating maybe she can realise that the owner is ok after all.

btw, i'm sure you didn't intend it to but your post seems to suggest that the op lie in a legal situation about whether the stud was paid for.

"How can you prove he hasnt received any money?"
MandyC PLEASE be careful what you are advising here.
Firstly, there was an agreement with the stud dog owner to have pup instead of a stud fee. If the breeding was for "line" and not money, then changing the arrangement to a monetary one instead of a pup may well not be acceptable, as frankly it is not adequate compensation. What I am saying is that the stud dog owner may well not have agreed to the mating if it were for monetary gain. In other words, the OP could be accused of fraudulently obtaining the services of the stud dog. A judge may well not see a monetary sum equal to the cost of a pup as adequate , and could potentially award the stud dog owner a higher sum than the cost of a pup. Not only that, the OP risks having to pay the costs of the court case....which are likely to be high. A court case is likely to judge in favour of the stud dog owner and NOT the OP, as there was an agreement, and the paternity of the litter can easily be proven on DNA testing if the OP denies it.
As for MANDYCs suggestion.........NONONONONONONONO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To tell a court that a payment has been made when it hasnt is PERJURY and that is a criminal offence. I would NOT advise the OP to lie about this, as she will have to PROVE money changed hands...and as she clearly has no receipt, she will not be believed by a court.
As others have said, the whole agreement was made by the OP, and sad though it may be, as adults we make choices, and we have to live with the consequences. If the OP really feels strongly that the pup should not go to this home then she should be prepared accept in her own mind that it was her own mistake, and offer the stud dog owner a higher financial incentive than the mere cost of a pup. Maybe double the price of a pup would be more realistic...and probably still cheaper than losing a court case and having to pay a few thousand costs into the bargain.

Whoa!

firstly i am not advising anyone to lie about anything!!!!!!!!!
i was simply replying to astarte's comment that she had made to me.

i made my opinion to the OP very clear in my first post and am now replying to comments that have been directed at me. dont try to twist things, i came on here to give the OP my opinion on what i would do if i was unhappy with a potential home it is that simple.

This post is going off in a completely wrong direction .....  again!