As any of you that have read my posts in the past regarding Hattie (Dobe) will know, she has been a complete nightmare with other dogs (and anything that moves). Anyway, we have been seeing a well respected trainer since February who practices reward-based training methods, basically rewarding good behaviour and ignoring bad. After a few one-to-one sessions we have progressed onto lurking in the background at his group classes, gradually getting closer to the action so to speak. The problem is these classes are a fair distance away and it is getting a bit expensive to travel to the classes and progress is pretty slow to be honest, it hasn't made much difference when meeting dogs outside the controlled environment.

So yesterday I took her to a local training class, where I go with my young Goldie, and within an hour Hattie was sitting next to the Trainer's dog and really not batting an eyelid. The problem is the Trainer uses "stronger" training methods, uses aversion techniques (training discs, water squirting etc) and I suppose negative methods (slip leads high up around the neck etc) to gain optimum control.

Now I'm unsure what to do for the best. Do I carry on with the first trainer where progress is slow, or go to the second, who seems to get a quicker response, but uses harsher training methods? All I want is a dog I can comfortably walk around the village without lunging and screaming at everything she sees.

Any views welcome.

Personally I prefer the reward-based methods, but I can see why you have a dilema. It is important that your Dobe learns to at least tollerate/behave in the presence of other dogs, but it must be frustrating that the reward-based methods are so slow going, especially when you see the aversion tactics working so quickly.

What worries me about the aversive method is what does the dog actually learn? - do they learn to behave only to avoid the unpleseant sound/experience or do they really learn that there is no need to be aggressive with other dogs and that the aversive influence is to break thier focus in order for them to listen?
Conditioning the desired response is probably quicker with aversive methods, but the reward-based method means the dog enjoys the behaviour that you are trying to condition rather than feels forced into the behaviour (as with aversion) (IMO).

Is there any way you can try the softer, reward approach yourself without the need for the long travel?

This is all simply my own opinion, I'm not a trainer/behaviourist nor do I have years of handling experience and I am not completely against aversive methods, but since getting a Mastiff, I much prefer the reward-based approach as he responds so much better to that, aversive training would break down his trust in me - he's such a sensetive soul despite the huge, burly exterior and stubborn attitude :)

This may be worth a read.

Hi mastifflover

The article you have linked is more or less exactly how the original trainer works and I much prefer this way, it just seems so much kinder. But the results yesterday have made me doubt what I've been doing as the results were so quick. But yes, I agree, I think she was complying because she had no choice.

The trouble with trying the "nice" techniques while out and about with Joe Public around and not in the controlled training environment is the likelihood of meeting off lead, out of control dogs and ending up back at square one.

Karen

Could you not mix the two?  Since the aversion methods are having a quicker rate of success, use that for the initial training, while still rewarding the great behaviour. 

I rarely find just one type of training method works.  For me, I mix a little here, a little there, but always consistant with what I am doing with the dog. 

Good luck!!!

> Could you not mix the two?  Since the aversion methods are having a quicker rate of success, use that for the initial training, while still rewarding the great behaviour. 

That seems like a good idea :)

Use the aversive to break the focus & get the dogs attention, then focus on the reward - shouldn't take long for the dog to anticipate the aversive, pay attention and then the reward-based method can be phased in as the entire method ?

I'm really not sure the two can be mixed. When I originally mentioned the possibility of using a water squirter as a distraction to the reward based trainer he said he has seen so many dogs ruined by using the aversion techniques.

It may work for a short period of time but she will cotton on that instead of a positive response from me whenever a dog is in site, i.e. giving food for not barking, she will learn that dog = water squirt, not nice, and will react to the dog earlier. Any dog she then sees she will associate with water squirt (horrid) rather than food (nice). Does that make sense?

Ian Dunbar made an interesting DVD on dog-dog aggression. Watching him interact with owners it was clear how much timing and the handler's behavior affected the situation. He used a combination of verbal reprimands/distractions with praise. Worth a look for £17. It's Dog Aggression part 2.

Hi,

For me I would be persevering with the reward based methods.  It's taking longer that way because it is changing her perception of things and that does take time; but it is dealing with the underlying problem not just the symptoms.  Using aversives can have a quick effect but it doesn't change the way the dog feels about the 'things' that worry her in the first place so it is just supressing the behavior and unfortunately this can lead to an even more stressed dog and also one that can be a bit unpredictable becuase you can be led into a false sense of security.

Dobes can be very sensitive dogs, or without being pc, sometimes a bit neurotic :-D and aversives while may seem effective in the short term really can be quite damaging in the long term.  I also know if I used those kind of techniques on my, ummm, sensitive :-)Dober girl, she would lose some trust in me.

I don't think using those kind of aversives work well with reward based training, as they really contradict each other, with reward based training you want to set the dog up for success and encourage dogs to use their own initiative and offer behavors which generally builds their confidence, while punishment using aversives does the opposite and stops dogs wanting to try new things and can decrease their confidence, plus they can associate the things they are already worried by with the punishment rather than their own behavior.  Supressing the behavior only leads to a dog not telling you when they are uncomfortable and can be more dangerous in the long run.  I'd trust your instincts on this one :-)

> It may work for a short period of time but she will cotton on that instead of a positive response from me whenever a dog is in site, i.e. giving food for not barking, she will learn that dog = water squirt, not nice, and will react to the dog earlier. Any dog she then sees she will associate with water squirt (horrid) rather than food (nice). Does that make sense

Makes complete sense and is exactly what would worry me.
As far as mixing the 2 methods, I was thinking along the lines of using a noise to get the dogs focus on you so that you can then command a 'sit & wait' (or whatever she has to do when a dog is about).

My pup was a nightmare for trying to jump at people, he would nearly pull me over to get to them, this wasn't out of aggression he just loves meeting people, but in that excited state there was still no getting through to him. In the end I used treats to get his attention before he got a chance to get excited when people were approaching, put him in a 'sit' & rewarded, kept rewarding while he held the sit & kept his focus on me (or the treat), before long he would automatically sit when he saw people :) There is no way I would have risked using anything that could have caused him to associate strangers with a bad experience (especially being a huge guarding breed).

If your dog is food-motivated it really helps, as using an 'extra special' treat for distraction (something they don'y normally get - so regard as really great ie, cheese) keeps them attentive to you & your commands, but timing is really the key. My pup is completely food-orientated, but if he is really excited food won't work, but used before excitement it works wonders :)

I understand that aggression isn't as easy to overcome as a happy pup that wants to greet people, but if you can find your dogs motivation and distract before she gets a chance to get fixated on antother dog the reward-based training will get through to her.

Thanks for all your input. I think I will continue with the reward-based training, albeit v. slow progress and costing me a fortune in petrol, I just feel happier knowing she is less stressed that way, and I agree Karen, Dobes are a very sensitive breed and I don't want her to be doing  the "right" thing because she is terrified of the consequences, I'd rather she chose to do it correctly. I'll continue to ignore her unwanted behaviour rather than punishing it.

What a helpful lot you are!

Can I ask how long you've been working on this?

Issues such as Hattie's can take a long, long time.  Take my own dobe girl - last week in the woods, I was finally able to say "yes, she's fine" when someone who was approaching with two dogs asked.  And she was, bless her :-)

That has taken 18 months of hard work!

Personally, I would not touch aversives with a barge pole when dealing with aggression in any form - the risk of the dog associating the aversive with the object of its issue (other dogs in your case) is just too great IMO.  To use Soli as an example again - when I met her she was walked on a non-pull harness (tighten under the armpits kind).  It took me a while to twig, but I realised that when I walked her on a harness - just a halti so no pain/discomfort anywhere for her - she was much, much worse with other dogs than when she was just on a collar.  It was because she'd associated that pain from her old harness with other dogs, as she was focused on them when lunging (and so causing the harness to tighten).  It was bad to the point that where I could normally hold her, one day (the day I realised) she was lunging so badly that I had to scruff her to stop her before I lost hold of her.  If you think that the aversive from that harness must have had spot-on timing - as she triggered it herself when she aggressed - and consider what that did to her mindset, I cannot see any reason for using aversives in such a situation.

Chin up, stick with it, you'll get there :-) If I can with Soli - and she was going ballistic at dogs for, to my knwoledge, the full 5 1/2 years before I got her - then you can do it with Hattie :-)

Edited to add: I found with Soli that a headcollar was a real turning point - her aggression was partly conscious, she was making an effort to look big and nasty to frighten dogs off as well as just reacting from fear, so when she realised she couldn't get all her weight behind a lunge it gave me a few seconds to get a reward in for not lunging.

a really good book is Click to Calm if you use clicker training, is easy to read and makes the techniques very easy to understand and use.

Personally I would stick with the first trainer. Progress may be slower, but it will build a stronger bond of trust between you and the dog IMO. I am not personally a fan of aversives - they may work more quickly, but in the process you have to do unpleasant things to your dog when reward based will ultimately work just as well - if not better.

> Could you not mix the two?  Since the aversion methods are having a quicker rate of success, use that for the initial training, while still rewarding the great behaviour. 

I have been led to believe that mixing different training methods is not a good idea - it confuses the dog - so I would say stick with one or the other - pref reward based IMO. :-)

Hi Nikita

I seem to have been working on it forever - she's never been easy!! I saw a behaviourist back in 2006, but thought her advise (again using aversives) was next to useless, and failed to see how she could advise me what to do when we didn't even venture out the front door to see Hattie in action. I've seen a number of trainer's in between, a lot who are of the Barbara Woodhouse ilk, and finally went to see the reward-based trainer in February this year. The first thing he did was put her in a harness (similar to the Halti harness) and she is certainly slightly more relaxed on that. I had been walking her on headcollars (every conceivable version) which she hated, but I have to have something capable of holding her with when she goes mental!

Maybe there is hope after all, if you can get through it with Soli!

Oh bless her.

Have you checked things out from a medical angle?  Thyroid perhaps, or very well hidden pain?

The latter was another part of Soli's problem - her pelvis was wonky, dog knows how long for, and it took me 6 months to realise.  She was a nasty guarder of beds/sofas and it was only when she snapped after lying on the floor (where she didn't guard) when I went to stroke her leg (and she watched me go to do it slowly) that I figured something was up.  Her hip was sore, I had the chiropractor round and she was sorted out - made a heck of a difference all round, both with the guarding and other dogs.  She never showed a hint of pain though, until that day.

I haven't read every post, admittedly. But it sounding that she is respecting strong, no nonsense leadership. (I'm in charge, so you WILL behave!) 

I would go to both and pick the best bits of both for youself and for her.

Or find a different class that instills this leadership skill in you, and rewards the dog. And yes get the Vet to check her.

Nikita - Her health has been checked, including thyroid tests via Jean Dodds, so everything is OK there, although her thyroid level is on the low side of normal. Don't think there is any pain, and she recently had x-rays of most of her body (due to a nasty lump which has now been removed), but like you say they do hide it well.

I appreciate the advice Golden Lady, but the 2 methods are so opposed I really think it would do more harm than good in the long run to do both, and I'm sure would totally confuse her. I'd prefer to have a dog that chose to do something rather than being scared witless not to, if that makes sense. With her being of a nervous disposition I think the latter could have detrimental results.

Sorry, i never put myself over terribly well on this.

I would observe what both trainers are trying to accomplish by what methods, then choose what suits you and her, getting maimum benefit from showing her strong leadership skills with reward based training. Although I do not advocate rewarding a dog for NOT acting aggressively towrds another dog! I would expect that to be the norm and act accordingly, very matter of fact. That is reward itself to the dog, a relaxed owner that is not tense and in control.

Does that make more sense :)

Although I do not advocate rewarding a dog for NOT acting aggressively towrds another dog! I would expect that to be the norm and act accordingly,

While it would be ideal if that were the norm it often isn't the case.  Dogs act aggressively for lots of reasons although 99% of the time it is down to fear and it is very important to reward a dog for not acting aggressively if that is how they normally respond to something that they are worried by.  It is by rewarding a behavior that it is more likely to happen again and if a dogs who is normally reactive gives you a window to praise them for appropriate behavior it is vital that that opportunity is taken.

Pedlee,

I can't remember if youy've said before whether you've tried DAP or not.  You can now get DAP collars and they seem to be more effective that they diffusers etc, just because of proximity to the pheremone.  It may be worth giving that a go.  Just beware that if you do in a very small percentage of cases it can actually appear to lower inhibitions and things can be worse, however in the large majority of cases it makes things better or has no real impact.  Also can't remember if I suggested calming bands or Ttouch tshirts before.  I've seen these have quite a positive effect on nervous and on some hyper doggies.  Also have you tried seren-um tablets?  Again these seem to have a positive effect or nothing at all.  Really seemed to have quite a difference on a nervous aggressive staffie I was working with recently, it was along side other changes but they definitley seemed to be part of what made the difference.  They contain tryptophan(sp) which helps release serotonin - happy hormone :-)  Sorry if I'm repeating myself.

Karen, I think I've just about tried everything! I have used DAP in the house and the collar, I've also tried T-touch along with the calming bands and t-shirt, Dorwest's valerium and Topspec calmer. Not tried seren-um tho', but having tried the other stuff wouldn't hold out much hope of that working! She just "goes into one" when seeing other dogs and very little has much effect. She really needs to learn that strange dogs aren't a threat. She is sooo playful, always larking about with my other dogs, so it's not as if she hates ALL dogs. She did go through a phase when she kept having a go at the bitches in the house, but, touch wood, that has resolved itself.

I would expect that to be the norm and act accordingly, very matter of fact. That is reward itself to the dog, a relaxed owner that is not tense and in control.

You took a 'bit' of that sentence...not all of it. You are underestimating 'reward' and the last part of that sentence to a dog is 'reward'. Its as good as saying 'Good Girl' reassuringly, but you can add that too, if it helps reassure both.

Ive also seen dogs, that have tried to use only the positive methods of training, and get the thing all wrong. 

Example:
My aunts doberman, went to training class, where there was only positive training methods used.  The exercise was on pulling, and how to stop a dog from pulling onleash.  Well, Ebony, would pull to the end of the leash, my aunt would stop, and Ebony would come back.  Fine and dandy, the trainer said "Give her a cookie, cos she checked in with you, thats what you want".  Good, cookie given.  So every time Eb pulled, and then checked in with my aunt at her side, she got a cookie.  NOW she has learned "If I pull really hard, and then come back, I get a cookie".  Total misinterpretation of the exercise.

Just one example on how the total positive approach with no corrections, can lead you down a path you dont want.  Ebony is now 75 pounds, and its getting harder and harder not to have her pull you off your feet when she wants to go ahead. 

But that wasn't because reward based methods were used, it was because the exercise was mistaught by the trainer. You need a good trainer\ behaviourist as well as the reward based methods!

Yes, the trainer should have given more help there. Like once the dog gets that being by her side gets a treat then start extending the good behavior before the reward. So a couple of steps by her side gets the treat, then a few more steps - work up to walking to the end of the road and then get the treat. I don't use treats myself, the reward is walking again. If my dogs have a loose lead we get to go somewhere, if their lead is tight they go nowhere.