Having a really bad time here and wondered if anyone else has ever experienced anything similar -

2 days ago my girl started being sick and was really very poorly - couldn't hardly move.  It turned out to be the start of mastitis.  She was put on antibiotics straight away.  I had to take the pups off her completely, but luckily they are nearly 4 weeks old so that part is ok.  But now the whole breast area has become severely infected and turned black.  Went back to the vets this morning who said it is basically a case of waiting for that whole section of breast tissue to come away, leaving a great big hole.  Then she will need major surgery.  So I am now sitting here waiting for practically the hole breast to fall off.  I am so upset - it's all just like a big nightmare.

Has anyone had this or heard of it happening or know anything about it?

I've looked it up on net and it's actually gangrene - "gangrene mastitis".

I have had of this happening to friends dogs - I think it is called 'necrotic mastitis' or toxic mastitis.  The bitches did recover but had to be spayed.  You must be so worried and my heart goes out to you.  Try not to get too upset as your stress will go through to your girl who needs you to be brave and look after her.  Easier said than done I know.

Thanks for your reply hillibilly.  yes, I am trying so hard to be brave.  It is just all so awful.  I just hope she will be ok.

I'm not even sure how much milk, if any, pups need at this age.  I'm not sure if it's more of a comfort thing.  In previous litters they have still been feeding til they leave home - never done it like this before.  Since she got ill I have been giving pups 2 whelpi feeds a day.  Is this ok do you think?  they are all eating food well.

One of my bitches had severe mastitis. Her mammary gland eventually explode (Yukk! :-( ) It did leave a gaping hole but it drained nicely and healed really well. You wouldn't know it had happened. That was 6 years ago and she is still fine.

did she have an op after it exploded?

No, it was left to drain naturally and allowed to heal by itself. It looked awful but the vet said that that was the best way for her. A different bitch might need different treatment so be guided by the vet.

I also saw this with my oldest bitch.  She had finished feeding the pups (12weeks) and it was one of the 'useless' breasts up under her front leg.  It had never been fed from and the vet felt that it was because she had had so much milk but it had never been drained from there.  She was on ABs but a few days later we were back at the vets as I could see it was becoming an abcess.  I was so upset but he wasn't very worried, told me it would burst which it did, and that I was then to express it and bathe it with salt water (I added tea-tree too ;) ) it healed up really quickly after that and she was fine then but 2 years later it started to 'lump up' as she came into season, so instead of taking her to stud as planned she had it removed and an emergency spey in case it was 'nasty'  - she's been fine ever since :)

i wonder how the vet knows now that she will need surgery then. he said he cant do it yet - we have to wait for all the dead tissue to come away.  he also said we cant drain it - just let it do it by itself.

please could someone clarify how long the pups need whelpi for?  i know they generally feed from mum long after 4 weeks, but as they can't feed anymore, im not sure what i should be doing with the whelpi.

im also worried about the fact that the pups cant have any contact with her because they just try to feed.  but they will be missing out on all the other stuff - being close to their mum, being cleaned, playing, teaching etc  :-(  what can i do about that?

You could try fitting her with a loose cotton Tshirt. It will probably want securing at the back end somehow.  Don't leave it on all the time though to make sure the area stay as dry as possible.
I think I would give them a bowl of whelpi with every meal to ensure they are getting plenty of calcium.

Have seen advertised dog bra's that is a similar thing to Isabels comment. I would find a kiddies t shirt and put it on, tie up the back with a band of some sort. With regard to the pups I would keep them on pup milk until they are at least 7 weeks old. Good luck and hope it works out well for your girl

Would Lactol be ok, or should I use Whelpi?

No Lactol would be fine. Good luck with them and the mum too

thank you so much.  i just hope my girl is ok - i think there is a possiblilty of septacemia. the whole area looks so awful :-(

I've had experience of this jonnemay, and heard many stories of it since so not as rare as you may think. :-)

My girls teat did not react well to antibiotics either, it continued to swell to the size of a jaffa orange and I was on my way to the vets with her when it burst and began to weap blood and mucus, it was also black at the base, however, my vet told me the teat would need to be removed immediately he didn't make my girl wait to have it all fall away and disintegrate naturally, he took her in straight away for surgery and removed her teat, rejoining the skin was a little difficult as the skin did not quite stretch and it was a little touch and go as to whether it would mend, but it did perfectly, there is just a very small scar.  She has one teat less but that is it. :-)

The pain that was obvious on her face completely disappeared straight after surgery, she healed beautifully and has never looked back, the surgery cost approx £1,000 but it was worth it, to have my girl fit and well again.  So try not to worry there is light at the end of the tunnel.

All cases are different which is perhaps why your girl needs to wait a little for surgery, it looks horrendous doesn't it?  But believe me the end result is wonderful, hope that your girl can have her surgery soon.

I had to seperate my girl from her pups and hand rear, which was very hard work, luckily your pups are much, much, older. She will be ok, and so will the pups. :-)

My friends dog had this, a big gaping hole you could have put your fist in! It was awful :( But she had a/b's and the hole was allowed to heal (at one point she nearly had it stitched up, vet agreed, but another friend said no, leave it) It heals from the 'inside' out and although she has a small scar, it doesn't show just how big the hole was   The pups still suckled from her, she put covering over it when it was feeding time so the pups couldn't scratch at it and just kept a close eye on her at that time.

thanks for your reply carrington.

the whole area has been weeping and dripping all day, but there is now a hole, so i have called the vets again and am taking her in at 6.00 to see a different vet, which im quite pleased about as it will be a new opinion. 

it is different to yours in that it isn't the teat.  it is a patch of black on the fleshy part of the boob between 2 teats. the patch is about 2 inches by 1 inch and the hole that has come is not in the black but near it.  i assume the black area is all dead flesh.  the vet this morning said that if they operate now (before it has come away) they will have to remove a huge area - much bigger than if they wait.  i dont really understand it but that's what he said.

it really is horrible to look at, yes. i keep thinking i should have got onto it sooner. and am feeling so guilty that i mated her in the first place.  she hasnt had contact with her pups for 2 days. its all so sad, im so upset.

Since she got ill I have been giving pups 2 whelpi feeds a day.  Is this ok do you think?  they are all eating food well.

Once my pups were 4 weeks I began to put 2 large bowls (depending on litter size of course) of goats milk with egg yolk down for them to drink, early in the morning, approx 4pm and then just before bed, along with their food, whelpi of course is also a good subsitute milk.  It will depend on size of pups and breeds, so if it is gone in two seconds flat do it 3 times a day instead of twice. You will need to play things by ear a little and use your instincts as to what you think they need as some pups are greedier and some not.

By the time they were 6 weeks I reduced this to twice a day, and to be honest left it at that until they left for their homes.

A week after surgery, I allowed my girl to go into her pups after feeding, whilst two of us either side made sure that the pups did not try to suckle or scratch her teats, she would lick and clean the pups I would then remove her, I did this approx 3-4 times a day to keep a bond.  They seemed to have forgotten about feeding from her after being hand reared and fed from a bowl.To be honest it never interfered with their social skills at all not having their mum with them, they played with each other, with us, and to be honest I saw no difference between a litter raised by her or by us.

Protect her underbelly with hands and the t-shirt etc are a good idea, but allow her to still lick her pups and at least socialise from her shoulders up. After they are fed.

missie, i think that's where we are heading - a big gaping hole.  the vet i saw yesterday told me to take the pups off. i really didnt want to because even though they are nearly 4 weeks old, i still think that feeding from mum and the closeness with her is invaluable.  but i had to go by the advice of the vet and take them off :-(  i guess i should be relieved that it didn't happen earlier as atleast they can eat food and lap now.

that all makes sense. thanks so much carrington.

i keep thinking i should have got onto it sooner. and am feeling so guilty that i mated her in the first place.

Don't upset yourself, it is nothing that can ever be predicted, I spotted my girls mastitis immediately, had her to the vets within an hour, antibiotics, heated flannels all the things that should have corrected the mastitis, but it continued to swell and swell I slept next to  her as I knew she was in pain I could see it all over her face and when I got up in the morning it was horrendous, these things happen, your bitch could just as easily have had a trouble free rearing.

When it first started I did not even worry, I had mastitis too :-D thought nothing of it, you could never dream it would go so bad.

Promise she will be ok. :-)

Thank you xx

he said the same thing - just gotta wait and hope for the best.  so keeping my fingers crossed.

I had this with a cavalier many years ago. Took the pups away as the area was painful to the bitch .I put a baby grow on her for the times she was interacting with her pups so she didn't get upset. It sounds similar to your girls ,but draining ,keeping it clean, and antibiotics we did not need surgery ,she made a complete recovery. Hope your girl does too.

These are being sold on Ebay - not sure what breed you have but they do several sizes on their shop page.  There is a telephone number so would think if you decided to get one you could ring them and ask them to send out so you would have it by Monday.  That way she will be able to be with her babies for some of the time.  I hope she and you are feeling a little better.  Take care.

the trouble is, the vet has said it must be left uncovered.

Sorry I meant to put the link on

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170126246865&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=007

Perhaps you could ask your vet if she could wear it for very short periods whilst seeing her puppies.

oh yes, i just found it. yes i will ask. she has just gone in the pen for the first time in 3 days, but they just all swarmed to feed :-(

>the trouble is, the vet has said it must be left uncovered.

That's just reminded me, when my girl's mastitis burst (and yes, I got her to the vet straight away for ABs but a few days later it still burst, but no blackness thank goodness) to keep it clean and stop her licking it or getting dirt and coat in it, I put on a sanitary pad (one of those that come in individual wrappers) which helped to mop up the infected matter.  It was kept fairly loose and changed 3 times a day but did the trick ;)

With my last litter, I put a T-Shirt on my girl to stop the pups suckling as she had clearly had enough, but wanted to be with them.  I found a baby's safety pin was great for securing it around her back end :-)

thats a great idea about the sanitary pad - thanks Dill.

things have gone from bad to worse tonight - it has now come completely apart and there are lumps of flesh and breast tissue hanging out. it looks dreadful - i have called the vet but they say there is nothing they can do til its all come away.

daren't go to bed.

Please don't fret too much, it will look worse before it gets better. My friend said it made her feel quite sick looking at it but within 2 weeks it got better and completely healed by itself. There was some liquid stuff she brought from the chemist (cheaper than the vets) that she used to clean it with or put in with some padding (not sure which?)
My sister actually had this under her boob, it was again really awful to see, and every day a nurse came in to clean it and change the wadding. She took a bit longer to heal but I think dogs heal quicker than we do.

Try and rest and take your mind off it, it won't get any worse or better looking at it.
(easier said than done I know)

thanks everyone.  things are much the same this morning.  going to the vets again soon just for them to check it.  i will ask about covering it and about the pups etc.  she really hates the big collar thing - keeps crashing into everything.  wish i could fastforward 2 weeks!!

{{{{{BIG HUGS}}}}}

For both of you, sounds like you need it!  I think I'd have felt the same if it had been that bad, I felt bad enough as it was :(

Hope it heals quickly for her.

Does she keep licking it if she isnt wearing the coller??
Good luck with her :)
Lea :)

yes, she won't leave it alone, and the vet said she could make more come away than what needs to.  just got back - he said it's just taking its course.  he actually cut some of the flesh and skin off that was hanging, as it is all dead and she couldn't feel it.  im really cross with myself because i completely forgot to ask him about covering it and the pups seeing her. im going in again on monday so will ask then.  apparantly we need to wait until it's all come away now and then they will assess it to see whether or not she needs surgery. i feel exhausted. thanks everyone for being so kind.

They can't stitch dead tissue, and it is best to leave her alone if possible. I know it looks awful, but you are doing the right thing. I don't think that putting on a t-shirt, or somthing similar, would do any harm. It isn't as if you are completely closing the area off to fresh air. You are only stopping the pups from getting near to the sore area. She needs to be able to interact with the pups.

I agree with Lindylou.   A loose fitting t-shirt, that continues to allow air over the area, for spells with the puppies would benefit them such a lot.   As the vet has seen her recently I would think a phone call would be all that was needed to see what they felt about that.

My previous vet (cattle vet) recommended hoseing the area gently with running water to slough away all the necrotic tissue and bacteria.
After doing this, 5 times a day, the area healed from the inside out, remarkably quickly.
It's common practice in cattle who suffer from this condition far more commonly than dogs.

I took the pups off the bitch immediately (4week old boxers) and didn't return them until she was completely healed. The weather was hot and covering the wound would have severely increased the risk of proliferation of the infection.
Hope this helps, I wouldn't hesitate using this method again.

omg that makes so much sense. thank you so much. i have just done it.  got soaked but worth it if it helps!

what was your vet's advice on her licking the area?  did you use one of the big collars?  thats what we're using because otherwise she is at it all the time. am i doing the right thing?

i tried putting a t-shirt on earlier and letting her in with the pups for a few minutes. the t-shirt went on fine, but they were clawing it and pulling it off and 2 even managed to get teats and suck through it!!!  they had just been fed too, so weren't hungry!  im just worrying that they arent having any interaction with her at all.

You could try and get hold of one of these collars (http://www.amazinghealth.co.uk/comfy-collar.htm) as an alternative to the lampshade type. I've not tried them but know a number of people who have and they are much less cumbersome than the buster collars.

> I'm also worried about the fact that the pups cant have any contact with her

When my bitch had Mastitis when her pups were 10 days old they continued to feed from the bitch.  the pups simply did not fed from the infected breast.  My Vets advice which proved to be correct is that the pups would naturally avoid the infected milk.

Hers fortunately did not abscess.

I would not want to be keeping pups away from the bitch at this stage.

I would be feeding them plenty of milk still with their four meals a day with the two extra drinks of Puppy milk on top.

i just dont know what to do. i am so worried. how can i let them have contact with her? its impossible.

I agree with Brainless that is not ideal to take the pups away before their natural weaning time, but when there is a gapeing hole in your bitches side, then needs must IMO.
I didn't need a collar on my bitch, she just didn't seem to want to touch it other than to dry the hose water off.
I was able to get my pups back with their mum very quickly due to the fast healing rate and at 4 weeks it is not too difficult to switch to solids. Getting them back with mum asap is great for their mental well-being and that of their mum.
Unless you have very tiny or weak puppies you wont have too many problems so don't panic.
Very few pups will refuse scraped raw beef, puppy porridge etc and as long as they have access to (shallow) clean water they will do ok until returned to mum.
Just think of this as a temporary problem not a disaster.
Good luck

ok. thank you.  all the pups are eating really well.  they are on 4 meals a day of mushed down arden grange and it it fine, as well as raw mince.  they also lap milk from bowls well too.  i guess i am just worried about the closeness and interaction with mum.  but there is just no way i can allow any contact.  as soon as they get to her they scratch and pull at her teats.

since we've been hosing all the black has come away, so we are now left with the hole.  it is big, and pretty awful, but it does seem clean.  when we hose it the water runs cloudy so it is obviously washing any badness away.  we have the vet again tomorrow morning, so they will now be able to see what's what now the black is gone, and see if it needs surgery or not.

i cant imagine it healing very quickly - its so big and so raw - just a hole with exposed breast tissue - about 3 inches square.  all i can do is keep her separate from pups until it's healed.  i hate it but theres nothing else i can do.  in the mean time i've got pups on 4 solid meals and 3 milk meals a day.

toolz - how long did yours have to keep away from the pups?  and did you give them milk feeds?

It was about 4 years ago so I'm not crystal clear on timings but I do remember being amazed at the healing rate using the hoseing method.
You're quite right about the water washing all the infected tissue out, this allows healing from inside out and stops pockets of infection being caught behind the dead tissue.
The pups went back as soon as I could allow it (and that was when it stopped looking completely raw) but were already weaned by then but enjoyed being back for 'comfort sucks'.
I'm of the school of thought that pups need weaned away from milk and onto meat and meat products BUT in this case, milky drinks are not being provided by mum, so I would give the babies some milky food.
The mum, pups and YOU will get through this unscathed so don't worry - before you know it they will all be back together and soon after, be gone to their new homes.
One thing I would add is that the affected bitch I had, has no sign that she ever had any problem and absolutely no scar.
I didn't breed from her again because the speed at which she went from slightly hot glands to full necrotic tissue was frightening.

Thanks for the reply.

I know what you mean about the speed being scary - I was amazed too at how fast it all happened.

When they were reunited, your girl still had milk then?  It couldn't have been that long then, which has made me feel a bit more positive! 

We are finding the hosing a bit tricky - she hates it, but we are doing it as we can see the good it is doing, but only for a minute or two each time - I hope that is long enough.  I'm so grateful to you for posting about it.  The difference since we started just yesterday is noticeable.

I hope 4 food meals and 3 milk meals a day is enough.  Having never been in this situation, I just don't know if I'm doing it right or wrong.

No I don't think my bitch had much milk by the time they were re-united hence the name 'comfort suck'!
-Enjoyment only - no nutition. :-)
Your babies have had the best start in life, they got all the antibodies and nutrients from mothers milk and now they are able to cope with the separation.... no it's not ideal but you have to deal with it the best you can...and you will :-)
See what your vet thinks but I wouldn't be suprised if your bitch is healed enough in a week to 10 days. I do hope so.

If only the weather would get warmer then the water in the hose would be warmed by the sun and would make it all so much easier.
The discomfort of the running water is surely nothing compared to the terrible pain of severe mastitis, the pressure and the high temperature would have made her feel very poorly.
You are doing your best - keep it upand do keep us posted.

I will.  Thank you so much.  Have just hosed again and the whole area is looking better each time we do it.  I'm so grateful to you - I really think it's made a huge difference.  Maybe your vet should have a word with all the other vets in the country!!!