My lovely Estrela is coming up for 17 months now.  She's got her Silver GC and is taking her Gold in 3 weeks and I'm certain she'll pass it.  She is a joy to own in the house, she is really exceptional at obedience for a dog of her breed, and she has a wonderful temperament.

BUT!

She still pulls on the lead on the way to the park.  She's fine on the way back, and she's slightly better if I'm carrying my clicker, but she still has a tendency to pull.  She also drags me towards other dogs if she's onlead in the park.  I already do change direction, I say "ah-ah", I've tried stopping & calling her back to me each time, etc etc.  I've had private lessons with a dog trainer, I carry high value treats, I praise her when she's doing it right....  why won't she learn?  Is it her age? 

Also, her recall improved substantially in the past 6 months but has started getting worse again in the last few weeks because she's discovered squirrels.  Squirrels seem to cause immediate deafness, and she will run far away from me to chase them.  This has led to general selective deafness when it comes to recall, which is really frustrating when she finally seemed to be getting better!!  My trainer says that she is self-rewarding re the squirrels, and I should not let her off where there are squirrels around.  Unfortunately there's a lot of squirrels in my local park, and if I tried to walk her on the lead she would pull constantly :(

Any thoughts other than keep persevering?

Re: the pulling, you say you've tried stopping and calling back have you tried just sopping and saying nothing other than a praise?

ie, the moment you feel her start to pull (as soon as there is tension on the lead), you stop, root you feet to the ground (if she's strong - brace yourself so you don't budge an inch forward), the moment you feel her stop pulling (the lead going slack), praise & reward & continue walking.

The key: timing and consistency (you must stop every time she pulls or it wont work) and praise/reward (as soon as the lead slackens).
When she is starting to learn the lesson you can change the point at which you praise and continue, ie, you could build up to wait until the lead is dangling it's so slack, or wait for her to sit - it's up to you. You can also change the point at which you stop, you may decide you don't want her walking in front of you, so you then stop the moment she puts a foot ahead of you (I've personally never taken it this far, a slack lead is good enough for me :) ).

It may mean you don't get very far very quickly to start with, but they do pick up on 'tight lead = go nowhere' very quickly.
When this has become a habit they should automatically correct thierself as soon as the lead tenses :)

My Mastiff pup picked this up brillianty for walking - but required a different approach for when he wanted to pull to greet people.

ETA, each time your dog pulls and you carry on being pulled behind her, it re-inforces her pulling. A lot of dogs actually enjoy pulling, so try to make walking on a slack lead even better = lots of praise for walking 'nicely' & intermittant treats for walking 'nicely' etc.. :)

just a though, but do you always go to the same place to walk her using the same walk to get there? my mums gsds went through a bad staqge of pulling when going on their favourite walks as they knew exactly where they were going and knew they would get off for a run around and play. maybe try a few new walks or going a different way tp see if that helps?

I have an 18 month Mastiff bitch - Ella - and she still pulls on the lead. Read your advice and will try this next walkie time. The next problem is how to stop her from leaping at people as though she was their long losr relation!!! Any advice please!

> The next problem is how to stop her from leaping at people as though she was their long losr relation!!!

lol, it's hard work isn't it - they're so strong, with so much weight behind them, and my pup is only 11 months old!!!

I used treats :) I would take 'extra special' treats saved just for stopping him pulling to get to people, anything really smelly that got Busters attention immediately - cheese or pedigree schmakos seemed to work the best.
As soon as I saw somebody (before Buster had a chance to start to pull) I would grab his attention by saying 'whats this' (in a stupid, excited voice) and showing him a treat, for the first few days I then put him into a sit and gave him treats for staying sat 'nicely' while the person walked passed. I was a little worried about trying to actually walk past a person with him to start with, because (as I'm sure you've found) it's much harder to keep hold of them if you are walking they can catch you off balance, that's why I used the 'sit' first.

After that he started to think 'people = sit calmly & I get a treat', so I then went on to encouraging him to continue walking on a slack lead past a person (focusing on ME not the peasser-by) and giving lots of treats as he walked.

After a few days of that he automatically started to look to me for direction as soon as he saw a person, so I would then give him a treat for looking at me and give him a command ('walking' to carry on walking, or 'sit').

I gradually phased the treats out to intermittant, but continued verbal praise for passing people on a slack lead (and for not trying to do a walk-by-slobber!!!).

On top of all of that I really pilled on the praise for ALL 'good' behaviour while out, so if he did pull the fact that I simply said 'no pulling' and then ignored him made a starker contrast and it was much clearer to him what I wanted.

Now, 99% of the time I don't need to say anything to keep Buster walking 'nicely' past people, for the other 1% of the time I simply get him to sit and 'treat' him for sitting.
I have found that giving him an alternative behaviour that will gain him a reward (a 'sit' will do) works much better than just trying to stop the unwanted behaviour, they really do love to please (the treats are of course a major barganing tool ;) ) so the more you can direct them into good behaviour, the quicker it becomes a reflex/habbit :)
Verbal praise works so much better if you are brave enough to use really OTT 'baby' talk. I soon realised that sounding like a wierdo (who's a good baby, yeeeeeeees, you are, in a stupid voice) is a much better alternative than being dragged along a path by a huge dog you can't control!!!! I don't get any funny looks anymore talking like that, I just hear comments as to how well my dog walks on a slack lead :) , even through groups of little kids screaming, riding bikes & playing football, his focus is on me :)

The key to this method, consistency (as with all training) timing - you need to get thier attention before they are to distracted by the passer-by and praise/reward :) The general point is to make yourself more intersting/rewarding than the passer-by :) (I also used the same thing to stop Buster getting over-exited when he sees other dogs). Above all stay calm and believe that you will be able to teach your dog this, they are so sensitive to moods, if you don't believe in yourself and feel like you can't controll the situation, your Mastiff will know and she will take control.

I hope all my waffle helps :)

Hi, Thanks for your help. I will certainly try this method next walkie time! The only trouble is, she doesn't like to eat when we are out! God, she's stubborn!!! As soon as the lead comes out, it's head down and get to where we're going as soon as possible! Anyway, can only try!

Hate to dampen the mood but you must be very aware of the situation regarding the DDA. A dog leaping at a human can be misconstrude as 'intent' and with a witness thats all it needs. Any dog leaping at you is dangerous, but a massive one is very dangerous. Ive just come out of hospital with an abdominal operation and when started walking my dogs lived in fear of a dog leaping at my stomach. An elderly person or child would be injured, if they were wrong footed. I met someone recently who had had her collarbone broken by a chocolate lab leaping at them on a walk. THAT is the seriousness of it.

I would get trained with a spray collar if the rest isn't working, but get properly trained on it first yourself. It is not something to be used in a 'gung ho' manner. They can be very effective and are painless. Good luck and keep her on a 30 foot lead under control if you have to, until you are confident that your dog is under control off a lead.

> I would get trained with a spray collar if the rest isn't working,

NO, I could never reccomend using a spray collar to deter a Mastiff from jumping at people. There is no way you want to create any negative association with strangers, by thier very nature Mastiffs can be wary of strangers and this does not need accentuating, the fact that strangers are nice is the message that needs to be got accros, using the a spray collar (or any other negative reinforcement/deterrant), risks turning a huge, very powerfull dog into a stranger-hater - not something that the dog, the owner or the general public need.

A huge dog that loves people so much it leaps at them means the dog is friendly towards stranger but needs to learn some manners, manners can be taught with positive-rienforcement methods, the fact the dog loves strangers does not need stopping, a spray collar can cause the dog to be wary of strangers - not what needs doing atall.

I agree that the leaping needs stopping, but ONLY with positive rienforcement of wanted behaviour, which can be lured with treats/verbal commands.

One of the most common behavior problems that people have with their puppies is pulling on the leash. A regular buckle collar and a six foot leash are required for this training. First, put the collar and leash on the puppy and stand in one place. When you are ready to begin walking say "let's go" and take a few steps. Try not to yank or "check" the leash, which is a natural response. A second method of teaching your puppy not to pull is what I call the "carrot in front of the donkey" technique. With either method, do not attempt the training if your puppy has not had a chance to burn off the energy he has from being crated for several hours. When you can walk your puppy and hold the leash and a glass of water in the same hand you have mastered loose leash walking!

THATs what I am talking about corrrect training of the collar for the human, and I am not talking about the jumping up, I am talking about lack of control. It is not negative training when used correctly, it is positive.

What is negative is having a Mastiff leap at a human. Thats downright dangerous.

> What is negative is having a Mastiff leap at a human. Thats downright dangerous.

Completely agree with that, but still don't think that even a well-timed squirt in the face when in the presence of strangers is going to make the matter any better, it may provide a 'quick-fix' in the short term, but there is too much of a risk for it to cause long-term negative association.

ETA, especially in this breed- a guarding breed with a natural tendency to be wary of strangers.

I used a spray collar to improve my dog's recall, for which it was very effective.
The one area he still has poor recall in is where children are concerned. He loves kids, and wants to go and say hello. I felt it would be very unwise to use the spray on him as he approached a child, though, as the reaction could have been unpredictable, i would not want him to fear children or associate negatively with them, as so many dogs do.
For that reason I avoided using the spray in those circumstances. Now his recall is perfect at all times except where children are involved! I just make sure i am vigilant and put him on the lead when approaching children, so long as i call him before he has seen them all is fine, also as he has calmed down overall with the strict training in other areas, if i do miss seeing them first i don't call him back, as i know he won't oblige, but he does not actually jump up at them as he did when a pup, but just runs up to them wagging which is generally acceptable.

No the wrong training will give a negative response. I have used this on my Rott and it is a POSITIVE tool to be used for ignoring your commands,not for meeting people.

> No the wrong training will give a negative response. I have used this on my Rott and it is a POSITIVE tool to be used for ignoring your commands,not for meeting people.

How can you be 100% sure that a, guarding breed that is at a critical development age (from 'teenager' to adult) will know that a squirt in the face when in the presence of strangers, is for ingnoring a command, as opposed to associating the squirt with the strangers presence??

Opperent conditiong would class the spray collar as a 'positive punishment', I do not like to use any sort of punishment in training other than a verbal 'no'. Mastiffs are best trained with reward-based training, not punishment, even if the punishment is termed 'positive'. There is no-need to resort to the use of a spray-collar for a dog lunging to greet people, re-directing the dogs actions into a more disirable behaviour via lure & reward is much more rewarding for both dog & owner.

Its not working though is it?

Neither is it a squirt in the face! That is  typical response from someone who has never seen one used. It is a detraction to quickly turn into a positive response.

Hope this girl doesn't end up in court, cos if her massive dog leapt at me in my condition or a pregnant woman or god knows who else, she could, and rightly so.

Don't knock things til you try it. I had an excellent trainer.My dogs temperament with everyone is outstanding.

And just to add to my last post, after training many Sheps, many Goldens, a Collie and now a Rottie, I am fully aware and concientious of how a friendly greeting by a guarding breed, or any dog nowadays,can be miscontrude by anyone nowadays (my Rott has a very waggy 3 year old tail too!) I was getting nowhere to her deafness when she wanted to greet someone/everyone with great gusto,  and I was desparate for her actions not to be misconstrude. Desparate to get her under my control. As all dogs should be.

I took her training very very seriously and with the correct training FOR ME, with the collar, have now got great control of her who simply loves everybody and greets the whole world with a smile. I doubt I used it 4 times.

I have leant it to a dog trainer friend of mine who has a shep who goes balistic in the car at another dog passing, despite being incredibly well trained and a great temperamnet...she has curtains up at the car, dog in the down position. Drives everywhere with him. He is agility and obedience trained to a high standard. Swims with her in the sea every day brrrrr! And a great life. But when he starts in the car it is horrendous, and quite dangerous. She has used the collar twice!! Correctly trained (her that is) curtains are now down. Command used. Quiet dog! No pain, just a huge amount of praise for being quiet with passing dog.(He also speaks on command as all her sheps do).......... Job done.

> Its not working though is it?

well, she obviosly  hasn't tried the lure & reward method or she would not have said that she'll try the method next time she take the dog out.

>Neither is it a squirt in the face! That is  typical response from someone who has never seen one used.

considering I've used a similar method on my other dog, you are wrong with that statement. I am not disputing the fact that a spray collar worked for you on your dogs or that it is no good for other dogs/other problems, I am saying I think using a spray collar while a huge guarding breed is in the motion of greeting a stranger is playing with fire.

Whether it is a punishment or merely a distraction (or whether it has any effect at all) depends entirely on the dog it is used on.  I own a spray collar; I bought it for recall problems and eating dead rabbits.  I have used it to great effect on my dobe boy for eating dead rabbits - it is most definitely a punishment to him, no doubt about it.  He's stubborn enough that a distraction wouldn't make a difference.

When I used it on my rott mix it made no difference at all - it wasn't even a distraction, just an annoyance.  The odd occasion I've used it on my little dog (she is terrible for really jumping at and annoying the others on walks) it was clearly a punisher for her too.

So while, yes, on some dogs it is merely a distraction, I don't know that I'd be wanting to find out whether it's that or a major punisher on a large guarding type breed, especially where strangers are concerned.  Yes, it might work and be very effective; but it might go the other way and make a happy, bouncy dog an unhappy, stressed out, fearful dog.

You are all using it wrong. It is not a punishing tool for greeting strangers. It is not a punishment AT ALL. It is a distraction when your command of 'Come' or 'Heel' is ignored. Your timing is crucial. It is NOT, no, NEVER to be used when greeting people.

Best for all not to use it at all, as misuse could have dire effects. And No, she was never squirted in the face, and when it comes out it is dry air, btw.

I used it well, as I was trained well. I have trained a highly respected trainer, but would not trust it to many others.

I wish you luck with your jumping up Mastiff, and I really hope noone gets hurt, for everyones sake

Hi,

Whether it is punishing or not depends largely on the dog aswell as how it is used and a lot of dogs do find them quite scary at least initially.  There are lots of other methods, positive reward based that can achieve the same results as a spray collar.  A long line and reinforcing the recall and getting that as close to 100% is a good place to start.  Work out what it is that makes your dog tick and use it to your advantage.  If it is greeting other peoplepr dogs out on a walk, then ask for a sit before the dog is allowed to say hello, if the dog doesn't sit then no hello and fuss.  If she does sit then she can say hello and get the reward she wants which will reinforce a calm appropriate greeting.  Just explain what you are doing to people.  Get people who come around to the home to do the same.  Make all her interaction dependent on her offering a behaviour that is incompatible with the undesired behavior.

I used it well, as I was trained well. I have trained a highly respected trainer, but would not trust it to many others.

Aside from whether you agree with the use of them or not this is exactly why a forum is not the place to recommend the use of these collars as it is not possible to gauge the experience of others properly online :-)

Well neither is any other form of training advice on email, as it is all open to misinterpretation. The spoken word can be hard enough for some to understand, let alone the written one.

We are being faced with a massive adolescant dog that could injure a human in their eagerness to say hello, and possibility of a destruction order if an injury was to occurr. What we ARE doing on this forum is giving good helpful advice based on positive outcomes and therefore handing the posters the tools to go away with some very good expertise to seek out what is best for their own situation.And to also get expert advice on each idea.

I think that is exactly what this forum is for.

but would not trust it to many others.

Again I quote your words and there is a reason you said that. Giving advice about managing the situation with a longline and reinforcing recall is unlikley to do damage, a spray collar in the wrong hands and with the wrong dog could.  I don't know if you know anything about Estrelas but by nature they can be quite suspicious of people they don't know and this girl is still at a delicate age and a negative association between the spray and people or dogs could happen whether that is what was intended or not.  As this is when the dog is not responding in it is likely that the collar would be being used in the vicinity of people or dogs.

What we ARE doing on this forum is giving good helpful advice

There are many experienced people on these boards who have equally negative experiences of these devices as you seem to have positive and we are equally entitled to express our concerns and warn about their pitfalls so that the op can make that informed decision about what will work best for her situation. 

My advice would be stay well clear of spray collars and train to deal with the problem, if she is responsive to clicker training and you both enjoy it then I would persevere with that in conjunction with some of the other suggestions on here.  Good luck.

Yes. Good Luck from me too. I hope you find ALL our info helpful in your quests.

I had exactly the same problem and I sorted it, without harm to anyone, and certainly not to my beloved dog.