Actually running a sports field the only regs I have to have is a copy of the child protection policy and their insurance docs.
I think some people tend to do a bit or a--e covering wether it has a legal basis or not.
Same in Scouts my OH and his mate are quitting after 30 years cause they must take girls and as two blokes they don't have access to any women leaders so there off as its dicrimination if they don't take females and illegal if as two men they do!!
Soon we will be so pc we will stop all youth activities cause of the risks real or imagined.

Carrington, sorry a bit late i know, but i have a 16yr old sister with downs syndrome and i didn't take offense at all. Don't feel bad.

Thank you so much lucyandmeg, I guess I went on a bit but I found the slap of hand from some so unjustified and un-needed. I'm the last person to wish to cause offence to any special needs children's parents and have never had a friend take offence or become offended by anyone elses 'not up to date generalisations' it is all so silly and not needed, I am the only person one of my friends will allow to look after her autistic son as I bond so well with him and can always handle other friends ADHD children (there seem to be quite a few for some reason :-)  ) and when I was in my 20's I even shaved all my hair off to make a special Christmas wig for my neighbour a wonderful little girl with leukemia, who always loved my hair.

I guess that is why I find the petiness from some so hurtful as it is the deeds we do that are important, not the twisting of words, as words really mean nothing, especially when never meant in the way some perceive.

Thanks again very kind of you to pipe in. :-)

Just wondering if you thought I was being petty? To be honest I was very surprised that you answered Jackson's reply in the manner that you did as it seemed very out of character for you to do so. I personally don't think I was being petty pointing out that the way her son is referred to matters a great deal to her. It is obvious from your posts that you care deeply about your children and their welfare, and that of others, and I think Jackson was doing the same for her child. :)

I don't really want to stir things up again Harley, as I feel everyone is at a stalemate but the reason after Jacksons post that I replied, Don't be so touchy, was due to this:

Oh, and my son is a child with Downs, not a Downs child. :-/

If it had been a little footnote at the bottom of the post saying something like for future reference to anyone I would prefer my son to be noted as someone with Downs and not a Downs child :-) I would not have been upset in the slightest, and the post would have continued to be about swimming.

But the post was directed at me with the Oh, and my son............ with a sad or angry face at the end, not quite sure which, obviously that is then an accusation that I did something wrong, and I still will say I absolutely did not do anything wrong, only in the eyes of someone being very petty and out to make a point, which is why I asked her not to be so touchy.

I hope that is now clear to everyone or anyone who wished to know.

I really don't wish for it to start up again, as it is petty and silly at least in my eyes. :-)

>and I still will say I absolutely did not do anything wrong, only in the eyes of someone being very petty and out to make a point

That point being that you'd inadvertently upset her. A quick apology for the hurt caused - whether or not you think her feelings were justified - would surely have been the most polite thing to do? But I guess we're all different.

Anyway, back to the swimming pool situation. Personally I wouldn't want a boy over the age of 5 or 6 in the ladies' changing room; I don't think it's appropriate.

Sorry but I have sat on my hands all day with this and I'm becoming uncomfortable. I believe Jackson did apologise to you for the tone of her original answer in this post, however you chose not to accept that or ignore it and continue in a similar vein to before, which I will admit I have found most suprising. 

Just lock the thread

As I am not the moderator of this board I am unable to.

I much prefer cubilcles but I would imagine they are a nightmare to maintain, with locks breaking, doors breaking, hooks breaking, benches breaking, graffiti, mess being left and heaven knows what else.  They would also be much harder to clean, especially with the various different surfaces in them rather than a large communial area often in an easy clean, hygenic surface.  Perhaps different councils etc take different views in a sort of cycle of a number of years.

I remember really old pools where the cubicles used to be around the edge of the pool :-)

Carrinngton. I was not offended by your first post, I was simply pointing out that you had not used what would be considered by most (the Downs Syndrome association included) as correct terminology. I appreciate things can be taken the wrong way on an internet forum, an dtherefore apologised in my next post.

It was your post after that that offended me. Whether something is offensive to someone is surely the opinion of the person finding it offensive, not the person who has said it?

Anyway, in the big scheme of things, it makes no difference to me really, and one of the good points of my sons condition si that he really couldn't care less what others think of him or say about him, and is happily oblivious to it all.

I appreciate those who have understood my feelings, so thankyou for that. Maybe lets just forget it now? :-)

Jackson,

Thank you for your reply, and there are no hard feelings whatsoever, I guess we are on different poles for different reasons and we shall have to accept that, my stance is that I feel it should never have been made an issue of, there are many special needs parents and carers out there who would not have even batted an eyelid at what was written these are the people whom I admire for not expecting everyone to be PC and taking no offence when things are not as they would like.  They don't get on a soapbox as cheekychow did and make out something terrible and earthshattering has just happened, or stand around crying victim, victim, my feelings have been hurt again, in which others are supposed to role over and apologise profusly.

I'm sorry Jackson but I am British 'stiff upper lip' and all this victim stuff (not talking about yourself but in general) is taken too far and made too much of, if the PC brigade come knocking at my door they would end up with a bucket full of water over their heads I'm afraid.

I really did not wish to indirectly offend you and do actually understand your side of things, though going around correcting people will most probably bring more upset than joy to you, my side is that people are just being too sensitive and I wish you had not made an issue of it at all and done as many others would have done and overlooked it with no offence. After all DS was very unlikely to come up in the rest of the topic, it was about swimming.

However, you have behaved with dignity throughout and I apologise for causing you any indirect offence although I wish you hadn't felt offended to start with.

> I think it is very understandable that a parent can find it exceedingly difficult to have their child's condition be the main descriptive factor for their child.

It was the only discriptive factor that jackson gave about her child -  so how else could anybody who hasn't met him/knows what he looks like/knows his name actually describe him?

My dad has 1 arm, he doesn't take offence if people describe him as being one-armed (as opposed to a man with only 1 arm) or a disabled man (as opposed to a man with a disability), because at the end of the day if people are using words to describe him (rather than insult him) it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to him.
My dad would much rather somebody refer to him without giving a second thought to his disability, simply saying 'the one-armed man' is not belittling him it is being descriptive, it is taking his diasability in one's stride, mulling over the "correct terminology" for him before one speaks is derogatory and it is making his disabitlity an issue where it needn't be an issue.

>so how else could anybody who hasn't met him/knows what he looks like/knows his name actually describe him?

Why would a description be needed? Why not just refer to him as 'her child' or 'her son'?

Please refer to my older post to see my thoughts. Why should we describe people are Joe in the wheelchair or Mary whos mixed race - why cant these people just be Joe & Mary??!!!

I would agree ordinarily but the term was not being used to identify in this instance, the issue of his Downs status was pertinent and had been already mentioned by his parent.
I think whether you use the term Downs child or child with Downs is a red herring, and this would seem to be born out by the varying opinion amongst parents, like you say ,the issue is whether the term is being applied gratuitously and I don't think that was the case at all here.

> Please refer to my older post to see my thoughts. Why should we describe people are Joe in the wheelchair or Mary whos mixed race - why cant these people just be Joe & Mary??!!!

Any body who knows my dad's name will refer to him by his name, in just the same way as people who know Joe or Mary will refer to them by name.
When a person is trying point out who they are refering to (when they don't know thier names) no offense is meant if a major distinguishing factor is pointed out, ie. 'the man with 1 arm' or 'the one in the wheel chair', it isn't meant to be offensive or derogatory it is taking the one arm/wheelchair as a matter-of-fact the same way one may refer to someone as 'the one over there in the sports car' or 'that one pushing the pram'. When something is very obvious about a person it is naturally used by way of describing them, we all desribe with visuals unless we know their name, it is never meant to be nasty or dismisive of the fact that the person has a name,personality and feeling as we all do, just simply discriptive.

The mixed-race issue I think is different, there is normally plenty of things to describe a person by other than thier skin-tone, but saying that, my sister's Jamaican boyfriend is quick to point and say 'oh theres a black man'.

>Why would a description be needed? Why not just refer to him as 'her child' or 'her son'?

it was jackson that brought up the fact her son has Downs as it was relevent to the changing room situation in that he will need supervision/support when he's changing when he is older and as such not being able to go in the changing rooms with his mum after thae age of 8 is going to be very restrictive.
If it wasn't for that, then I'm sure Jackson wouldn't have mentioned him having Downs she would have just said her son. Or, if this conversation was in person, I'm sure jackson would have just used the name of her son and not even mentioned Downs and then anybody else refering to him could have used his name too (but most of us don't like using our kids name on the forum).

Why would a description be needed? Why not just refer to him as 'her child' or 'her son'?

She was describing the dificulties she may have at a later date with her son who has Downs syndrome, at the pool changing rooms.
We have come a heck of a long way with Downs, the people who run the support groups, who care for the many parents and helpers of these children, if they feel that the children are not the symptom but suffer from it, which they do, then if any description is needed it should be child with Downs, far more positive and correct!
This has noting to do with Pc, or being silly, or being over protective, it is a simple correct statement. Would anyone call a child with cancer a 'cancer child' or a child who has AIDS, an  AIDS child?

Why would a description be needed? Why not just refer to him as 'her child' or 'her son'?

It's called etiquette JG, Jackson referred to her child as her child with Downs syndrome and the changing problems he may have,

Therefore the reply needed to include that reference, the post above and beyond mine offering advice to Jackson just changed the words Down Syndrome to Special Needs as it was relevant to the reply and would have been rude from my point of grammar and in replying to a sentence rude not to include the specific need.

I would in hindsight have been better myself in just saying your special needs child, it would have saved a lot of hassle and I would not have missed out the word with.

Thankyou Calmstorm, that is exactly the point.

I have no idea why thse days if anyone expects people to be polite and respect the feelings of others, it is referred to as 'PC gone mad' or the 'PC brigade. It is merely a case of not being ignorant and considering the feelings of others.

I am not sensitive in the slightest about my sons genetic condition. He is simply my son, who happens to have a genetic condition. It is by far not the biggest part of him. However, some parenst are very sensitive about it, find it exceedingly hard, especially to come to terms with it in the early days. I think they would find some people's comments and attitudes (well meaning or not) upsetting and highly offensive, at an already dificult time. Not least because Downs isn't just a learning difficulty, but has phyical symptoms, often life threatening heart conditions. Imagine being told your baby has been born but might die without urgent heart surgery, and trying to deal with that, when all others can see is a disability and are making thoughtless comments. If anyone thinks that is having a 'victim mentality' then that says a lot about them as a person.

His condition is not really an affliction or an ilness, In some ways i see it as a blessing, as he is highly unlikely to have to suffer the stresses and strains of everyday society, and will remain, in part at least, blissfully unaware of how others percieve him.

Oddly, children seem to have the best perception of it. When I was trying to explain to my eldest son, who was 8 at the time, that his brother has Downs Syndrome. He said 'Do you mean he'll be a bit different to everyone else?' To which I replied yes. He just grinned from ear to ear and said 'Oh, well that's fine then, as everyone is diffeent anyway'.

>Jackson referred to her child as her child with Downs syndrome and the changing problems he may have

Yes, Jackson had said that her son has Downs Syndrome, so everyone with a reasonable memory-span would know which child was being referred to in the replies.

So now, you are saying that the words Downs Syndrome or Special Needs should not have been in anyones replies?

I absolutely do not think that Jackson has a problem with either words being used at all in our replies, no wonder the world goes around with their mouths taped up, yuor damned if you do and damned if you don't, there are so many negative people in the world wishing to jump down others throats.

The things is I doubt that Jacksons little boy gives a flying fig about any of this, it's the adults causing problems when there aren't any. Bless him, glad he can't hear any of this.

>So now, you are saying that the words Downs Syndrome or Special Needs should not have been in anyones replies?

No, not at all! What a leap to get to that! The point is that when someone (in this case Jackson, but it could be anyone at any time) gently mentions that someone used a term that has inadvertently caused offence, it seems rude to repeat it or try to justify it. A simple apology for causing offence and remembering not to use the term to that person is all that's needed. I'd have thought it's basic good manners, and nothing to do with Political Correctness, gone mad or otherwise.

Well as the parties concerned have now sorted their diffferences amicably :)  and we have all had the chance to express our opinions should we not let it go?

Good idea. :-)

************calmstorm walks in with the cream cakes, tea and biccies**********:) :) :) :)

Ooooookay, wasn't going to, but I'll have the cream doughnut........... Jackson you had better run they will all be gone soon! :-D

To get back to the whole swimming pool changing area issue (lovely cake, thanks calmstorm!!), I have two girls and I don't swim so when they went swimming they had to go with their dad. Fortunately the pool we went to has one large changing area with cubicles, larger ones for families too. I see no reason why this cannot be the case at every swimming pool and if the changing area in this case had just been renovated it seems particularly daft of them not to do this. I can't imagine why anyone, other than a super fit exhibitionist would have any desire to display their bits in public :-D and I certainly have no wish to look at them.
If the changing area that the OP uses is unsupervised then I too would be unhappy at letting an 8 year old in there alone, a supervised area would be different. It is a sad indictment of todays society that we have to worry about this sort of thing and I feel very sorry for all the men out there who must feel they are all tarred by the same brush, but the sad fact is that it wouldn't particularly worry me to send my 8 year old daughter into a womens' changing area on her own but sending a son(if I had one)of the same age into an unsupervised gents changing room would concern me :-( .

Hey! Who ate all the cake?

My local pool has mixed changing rooms made up of lots cubicles (the solid door type). There are also areas for male/female changing but there aren't cubicles in these areas and only children under 8 can accompany opposite sex parents into these areas.

I'm a mum to an 8 yr old boy and I wouldn't be happy for him to change in a mens changing room alone. He's perfectly capable but it's other people that worry me.

I am a prude as I am a bit of a heifer, so much prefer some privacy. I also remember as a small child seeing an awfully hairy woman getting changed in the open and feeling horrified!!

It must be just in our culture to need our privacy as when I was in Japan I was invited to go to the public baths.  Luckily I knew what this meant and so refused.  A lot of people don't have bathrooms in Japan and everyday they go to the baths where there are rows of showers where they all wash together and then they get in a big pool together to soak. It all seems very social, but not for me LOL. Got stared at enough with my clothes on just for being european, couldn't begin to cope with them staring at me in the buff :)

there are rows of showers where they all wash together

ohhhh, that reminded me of the showers at school, does anyone remember them after Pe or gym, clothes off and under the showers all together! :)

> I am in the cubicle, who ever thought that people want an open changing room anyway, why do they still exist? Does anyone like them? I don't want strangers oggling my body and watching me pop my underware on, it has always been unsavory for me.  An older child must feel even more upset, especially when in puberty.
>
> I'd like to see all open changing rooms a thing of the past.

totally agree, what is the need? a few bits of mdf and some screws and the problem is gone. yes you could not admit as manay people at a time but frankly a crowded open changing room is probably more of a discomfort for people. my local pool has both mixed cubicled changing rooms with family cubicals available at the end of each row and open ones, open showers and cubicled showers etc.

everyones happy!

> It is merely a case of not being ignorant and considering the feelings of others.

well said Jackson.

> ohhhh, that reminded me of the showers at school, does anyone remember them after Pe or gym, clothes off and under the showers all together!

I remember them - how I hated PE for that :( The thought of the showers after scared the hell out of me, I was chubby with little boobies (lol, and still am!!!) and completely paranoid about it, especially when there was so many skinny, big-busted girls quick to point out how big your butt was or how small your boobs were etc :(

I hated it too, our teacher used stand at the entrance and tick our names off as we went in to make sure everyone went in, there was only so many times you could say you had your period to get out of it !!

ClaireyS, you must have gone to the same school as me!!! We had to que up like that even in winter when it was freezing. And our PE teacher was reputed to be gay which at that age and level of nakedness we all found to be really uncomfortable. Whenever we used our periods as an excuse we were told to put a tampon in! Those were the days eh?

yes, our PE teachers were reputed to be gay too !

Our children in primary school from the age of 8 get changed for pe in seperate classrooms which I do agree with my daughter is 9 and still looks like a little girl but her friend who is 2 days older has all the little signs and she would be mortified at 8 year olds learing at her.

Linda

I didn't let my son change on his own in the male changing rooms when he was 8. Changing rooms with cubicles are not 'public' enough for my liking.  He would change in a cubicle with me where no one could see him and he couldn't see anyone else who preferred the privacy of a cubicle.  I could ensure that he was dried off properly and didn't stand on the wet floor with his socks on, drop his dry clothes on the wet floor or leave his towel or trunks or vest behind. 

In recent years our swimming pool has been completely refurbished and there are now family cubicles.  I see these as doubly beneficial for mums with young children because not only do you have much more space but also you can contain all your children in one place and not have to worry about tracking down wandering older children (not that mine did though but I certainly used to see plenty of children larking about while mum was trying to sort out younger children.

Carrington, You shaved your hair off? What a gift.

We are lucky that both pools in our town have communal (for schools and groups) and plenty of cubicles of different sizes.  I would never let my kids in a communal room though.  We have constant alerts about paedos, who have been caught on CCTV at our pool, and some have come in taking pictures and videos!  There are posters to be alert everywhere.  I am afraid that this isn't a rare occurrence any more. 

Why don't you get your son to change in the toilet (female) and wait for him outside the cubicle.  No one can object to that.  Then he can wait for you while you hastily change.

You guys are lucky! I've never,ever seen a pool with a communal or parents changing room.We just have male and female changerooms,and thats it! Parents dont have a choice but to seperate :(

As for bringing older kids into changerooms where people are naked out in the open,i am dead set against that.

Carrington, You shaved your hair off? What a gift.

Thanks Bilbobaggins, though the truth is I got the best gift of all in return, not just seeing Faye's little face streaming with tears of happiness, but my future husband too. :-)

I'd always gone around in a large crowd of girls upto 20 of us, so I guess you had to be a pretty brave guy to infiltrate us apparently he had been admiring me from afar but did not have the courage to come and talk to me. Having my hair cut off and head shaved gave him the chance to come and talk to me about, why I had done it etc, and I knew within an hour of talking to him that I would marry him, (yes, really I did :-D ) when you have no hair and a guy is attracted to you you know they like you as a person not just how you look. I met all his family with no hair and they thought I was wonderful for doing what I had done......... so it gave people the right impression of me and paid off a million times more than I had ever thought.

It was definitely one example of how good Karma comes back to you. My hair soon grew back and I may never have met my wonderful husband, and Faye got another wish to be a bridesmaid.......... at our wedding. :-) (With my hair :-D )

But, back to swimming and changing rooms. :-)

For the first few years of secondary school, we used to have this PE teacher who used to line us up like cattle to go in the shower, we all hated PE because of it, it really was demeaning to have to stand naked in a line, most of us just used to run through and grab our towels. It really wasn't even necessary PE hardly used to bring us to a sweat, do teenage girls really stink so bad they need to shower after doing a little gymnastics. :-D

i dont have any kids of my own but i would not like to leave any 8 year old boy in a room full of men.
my local baths have family room as well as male / female but i can also see the other side to this.

Thinking back to the days when my children were young - my son went swimming when he went to classes and swimming club.  He changed with the boys in the male changing room and I never thought anything about it.  The only time I went swimming with them at that age was on holiday. No I would not let my child change alone at 8 - where I go there is a family changing room and the age limit is 7 in the female changing rooms.  Think of the poor 8 year old girl from the same class.  On another subject more and more pools seem to stop mothers taking more than one child in - it has to be one adult to every child.  So difficult for many mums.

> Think of the poor 8 year old girl from the same class.

Surely she can stay in with the ladies as she is a female.

Odd is it not that a child can get changed in a communal changing room for any one to see, yet if you take a picture of them playing you are in trouble. Even at my sons Kickboxing class only "offical" photographers are allowed.

Each week we take a group of over 30 children with a huge range of disabilities swimming at the local leisure centre some of our female staff have to go into the men's changing room to help many of the children change ( men working with special needs children are as rare as hen's teeth LOL ) - I am always very uncomfortable by the grown men who come in whilst we are changing the youngsters and get changed themselves in the communal area - we even had one take a shower whilst our boys were in there ! we have complained to the management but they have no plans to deny access to the public whilst schools are using the facilities as the pool is open to the public for the session after ours.

Even if the children are heavily supervised by staff  there is still the risk that we are inadvertently providing a 'thrill' for those sick individuals who have realised that they can take advantage of the system run at the pool.
I'm not sure how many pools also allow this but it seems to me something that all parents should campaign to change !.

Yvonne

p.s - I'm sure that Carrington did not mean to offend - semantics can vary greatly from person to person and I have known of many parents who state that their child " IS rather than HAS Autistic/Autism, ADHD, Prada Wili etc etc.......tolerence is what we are after ...from all sides.

> I am always very uncomfortable by the grown men who come in whilst we are changing the youngsters and get changed themselves in the communal area - we even had one take a shower whilst our boys were in there !

Isn't that normal behaviour for males to feel at ease when changing at sporting facilities though.  I think it is very unfortunate that the leisure centre cannot offer better facilities but really the "odd man" out in this situation is the female support worker.  I don't think you can blame the men in carrying on with their normal behaviour and I don't think I would draw the conclusion that they are giving it a moments thought, after all you would know if they were getting any strange thrill about it ;-)

I am very surprised your pool does this. The pools i know about close to the public for school sessions. As much as i agree that men are comfortable changing around others (far more so than women) it is very awkward when children and those that need help through disability are involved, and as the public havent been subject to CRB checks it is possible that even with lots of supervision that someone could slip through the net and do something they shouldnt to one of te children/vulnerable adults.