because i am trying to improve on what i have, are you trying to tell me that you have the greatest in your breed? 

i know quite a few people who only go to shows when they know that the judge who is judging their breed likes the type of dog they have, so even if you had a great dog the judge may not think so because he prefers a different type of your breed

I'm sure that goes on hayley, there are biased judges in all walks of life, because we are all only human,

But the whole point of taking your dog to show, to work, to agility, obediance, KC bronze, gold, silver, anything that you do with your dog, whether you win or not, earns respect from others in the dog world, it shows you try, it shows you believe in your dog. :-)

That is what it is all about on top of all the other pluses of showing and meeting others in the dog world, it shows effort, and those who just don't bother for whatever reason even just a little, no-one has to be a full fledged show fanatic, or win everything in sight, but even hobby showing, it does make a difference to how others percieve a dog or bitch and yourself.

Those who just can't be bothered (speaking generally, not to yourself :-) ) with excuses of it's rigged, I don't care for the atmosphere etc, so I won't bother to do it and just breed regardless, that is why it does not sit well, because others do make the effort.

And therefore they do get the approval from others of what a nice dog they have.

I haven't changed the discussion from what you said at all.  You think the dog was too big but you have not listed the faults of the others.  You will not even be aware of all their faults having not been in the ring and gone over them yourself.  The size issue could have been the lesser of a few evils.  So you see, maybe on this occasion you were right, who knows?

no idon't, not by a long way. i'm not breeding him though which is the point.

I would go and see breeder 1 and 2, pick the puppy best suited to me, looking at the breed standard and comparing puppies to the standard to look for obvious faults (as everyone knows stock from a show winner may not turn out to be one), my choice would be on the individual pup no matter how many letters in front of their parents names. last i knew standards were pages long esp in my breed book not a piece of A4, they are long and detailed with many pictures (dont be childish and quote that last comment you all know what i mean) and can give a resonable understanding in to what a good example of a dog is. Just because a person doesnt show does not mean they dont know what a good example is after all the dogs are judged to the standard which has to be read and interpreted. Having studied the standard for my breed and bloodlines and viewed many many dogs in shows and out i think i have a good grasp on what a good and bad example are, i dont think you need to show to know this at all.

A dog wins in the ring, because of this everyone jumps on the band wagon using this stud just because he has won, otherwise they wouldnt look at him twice, numerous litters sired by this one stud.   When i see a dog, if a have studied that standard you can decide yourself whether it is of a good type. When i have been to shows watching dogs in the ring because i know the standard i can see who will be placed. In regards to Mandy who seems to be fighting this battle alone, she has 13 lovely doggies and the ones she has CHOSEN to breed from are of a good standard from winning stock and have the best temperaments health etc. Veiwing her site and this isnt a direct quote but from the top of my head she had one of her girls spayed because she believed she was not of a standard to be bred from. I have no doubt that she knows what a good dog is and with her pups in high demand offering good homes they do not either.

Louise

I wonder if there was a very attractive handler and an average dog the judge (man) would give that certain dog a placing? something to chew on

which ever parents of the litter that i personally preferred, regardless who which pair had the mosts wins under their belts, if i honestly preferred the show winning dogs then i would of course have a pup from that litter, but the show wins would not be the deciding factor.

very good post carrington

right so you only have one dog?

Thank you louise for your post, i am not a judgemental person and believe everyone has the right to their own opinion i was simply expressing my view that i feel i AM responsible regardless of showing. people only have to answer to their own conscience and i am happy that i do a good job and breed with care while trying to improve on my dogs every time.
i appreciate your comments and thank you for your kind words about my 13 babies x :)

> Well :-D  Let's just simplify it for everyone shall we.
>
> Breeder 1 -  Lovely looking dog, to bred standard, all health checks, great temparement, owner shows and  mixes with all the right people, can verify she has used the best stud most probably due to meeting quite a few along the way and has a cabinet full of rosettes and trophies that her dog has won along the way.
>
> Breeder 2 - Also has a lovely looking dog, to bred standard, all health checks, great temperament, owner does not show.
>
> Both have nice quality pups, both selling for the same price. Both in the same area.
>
> From which litter would you choose a pup?????

lol just read this, another excellent post. i know who i'd pick from!

sorry hayley was that to me? the reply think doesn't seem to be working well on mine. if so then yes, i currently have 1 dog, what of it?

see astarte mandyc as im sure others are trying to improve what they have just like i am what is wrong with that? if all dogs were perfect then people would no longer breed as you wouldnt gain anything the whole point in breeding is to improve

> I haven't changed the discussion from what you said at all.  You think the dog was too big but you have not listed the faults of the others.  You will not even be aware of all their faults having not been in the ring and gone over them yourself.  The size issue could have been the lesser of a few evils.  So you see, maybe on this occasion you were right, who knows?

I never yet said that I thought that the dog was too big!! Don't put words in that are not there! Some of the people complaining about the judging have gone over quite a few of the dogs in the classes at ringcraft and matches but they could all have been wrong too.

Can you please explain how you learn about your breed by going to dog shows, yet now you say that we need to go over the dogs to know what faults the dogs may or may not have? I doubt if many exhibitors are going to point out their dogs faults to anyone.

My point in my first post was that not all judges put up the best dog and before anyone says anything I also know that there are truely genuine honest judges out there.

well if you only have 1 dog then you obviously dont breed so therefore it wouldnt be possible for you to understand why i would breed from my bitch which isnt as great as other bitches in my breed, would you?

hayley i'm perfecty aware of that, as i said i currently have 1 dog... thats not to say that previously when living at home i did not have several more (belonging to my family) and have not been around breeders/exhibitors for quite a while. having just graduated i can;t say the finances stretch to more dogs at the moment.

can i ask what your breed is hayley? is it something very unusual? because in my breed, which is of middling popularity and is moderately specialist, breeding a litter when you are not sure you are improving the breed, which when you have no basis but your own judgement to consider the dog against, i would consider extrememly irresponsible.

We spent a lot of time considering wether to breed our (well, my families, not my personal) non showing bitch to an exceptional showing stud (at his breeders request) knowing we had a long list of people wanting a pup from this match. if a breed is over bred, which the majority are as the rehoming services show, breeding anything than the best of the breed seems irresposible to me.

i have 2 border terriers 1 russell and 1 belgian malinois, and also who said that i have no basis other than my own judgement?

and what breed do you have?

bullmastiffs.

you said you don't show them, there fore who are you asking to judge the quality of your dog??

>were they born kennel club registered?

No dog is born KC registered some are eligible for full KC registration when they are born(including ISDS dogs BTW)& some are not, however once they are born puppies from un KC/ISDS registered parents can be registered individual Activities Register registration-which they have to have if they are compete at any KC licenced event other than Companion dog shows. If you are looking for an agility/obedience dog then you need to know that he/she will be willing to word as you would have the same problem motivating an ISDS trialling dog. In the early days of obedeince/agility the standard was such that most BC/WSD could produce a good standard of obedience/agility even if they had insufficient drive to work sheep at any level, not so any more & to do really well in obedience/agility you need a fairly high drive dog whcih is able to learn the precision required for the higher levels of Agility & Obedience

I doubt you will find many ISDS puppies available that have parents who have had all the available DNA & clinical tests

Personally I steer clear of people who show.  I wouldn't buy a puppy from one.  In my experience they tend to be rather snooty people - it all gets a bit bitchy and really isn't my scene.  I like dogs with nice temperaments, who will be loyal faithful friends, nice with children and can be part of the family.  Whether their ears are the right length, their teeth are all inline and they are the right height really isn't of concern to me.  Many years ago, when I bred cats, I came away disillusioned by the whole showing/breeding the "perfect type" thing - the breathing difficulties that Persians had from being bred to have their nose too close to their eyes put me right off.

I am just thankful it doesn't spill over to humans.  Imagine if we only bred for the perfect look!!  What a world it would be!

Damn right about the snooty thing quite common in horsey folk who show too, with some anyway, dont want to tar all with same brush. Temperament is also of the upmost importance to me.

i dont remember saying i dont show and i do so i wouldnt have said that anyway, and i wouldnt have said that bullmastiffs are moderately specialist either

>this dog is oversized which was blatently obvious in the ring as all the other dogs were the same size and this one stood out as being taller!
> I never yet said that I thought that the dog was too big!!

You are quite right, I don't know what you are saying. 
Are you just being picky because I didn't say the dog was too big :-)  Fair enough, but it doesn't alter my point.

I doubt you will find many ISDS puppies available that have parents who have had all the available DNA & clinical tests

no but then you wont find many that have all the health tests wether farm bred or isds registered ive seen hundreds of ads for collies none of them have been kc registered and there was no mention of health tests which iasnt a surprise considering most collies go for around £100

> You are quite right, I don't know what you are saying. 
> Are you just being picky because I didn't say the dog was too big :-)  Fair enough, but it doesn't alter my point.

Maybe you should go back and read my original post then. If we need to go to shows to learn about dogs how can we learn when there are dishonest judges? I gave examples of dishonest judging and instead of answering my questions you picked holes in the examples. I don't care if the dog was too big, too small, had 10 heads and 100 legs, make no odds to me, not my breed, not a breed that I would ever get into.

i dont steer clear of people who show and i would and have bought from people who show, i just believe that showing isnt the be all and end all of breeding, people whole breed dogs for work dont give a s**t how dogs look as long as they do the job and lots of those people are extremely knowlegable and responsible when it comes to dogs, i would even put my neck on the line and say that they are more responsible with dogs than showers because they are continuing with what breeds were meant for 

I quoted from your original post, or the one I responded to anyway.

> I gave examples of dishonest judging

No you didn't, you can an example where those at the ringside thought the judge was dishonest.
This is going round in circles.   There will always be people who say these things, always has been for as long as I have been going to shows.  Maybe some are right, who can say but new people come along, work hard and manage to succeed all the same.

> people whole breed dogs for work dont give a ....... how dogs look as long as they do the job

It has been said all alone that this is also a legitimate way of proving your stock.

Ah right so the judge at Crufts looking into peoples faces when she should have been watching them move is judging honestly?

The people in the ring were the ones giving their opinions when judging had finished! Some of those know the dog that won, have gone over it, know what is wrong and what is right with it and have been in the breed a long time so do have some knowledge as I explained.

I have never said that all judges are dishonest but some are and how do we learn who is and who isn't?

Funny how you pick posts to shreds but avoid answering questions. I'll stop asking shall I? I'll go back to reading posts and asking nothing.

my apologies then, i misunderstood, i thought you were advocating breeding without showing. and that is your opinion, to which you are entitled, perhaps we have different views on the meanings of both moderate and specialist.

Personally I steer clear of people who show.  I wouldn't buy a puppy from one.  In my experience they tend to be rather snooty people - it all gets a bit bitchy and really isn't my scene.  I like dogs with nice temperaments, 

Oh dear, how terrible to clump us all as the same, there are all walks of people who show, from all backgrounds, races, religions, ages.  Perhaps you are basing your 'knowledge' on some of the 'older' people who speak the Queens English very well, that should not be seen as being a snob, or snooty, no more than someone who speaks slang is refered to as common.  People are people, no two are the same, and to generalise about shows in that way just is not right.

Are you really saying that those on the forum who show are snooty, think again!!!

I'm sorry but from your above statement, it seems perhaps you may be worried about criticism or not winning at anything as who cares if those offering a rossette or trophy are 'snooty' or 'common' or neither, it is the joy of entering.   It all sounds like a cop out to me, maybe your afraid of not winning anything, otherwise why be so against it? And make out it is something to avoid.  Quite the opposite.

> Ah right so the judge at Crufts looking into peoples faces when she should have been watching them move is judging honestly?
>

Who knows.   All we know is she looked at someones face. 
Actually these stories of "face judging" always tickle me as I would not have to look at the face of the people I know in my breed.  If I see a photo of them from the thigh down I recognise them! :-D  Unless they are showing in puppy I will usually recognise the dog as well.

>no but then you wont find many that have all the health tests wether farm bred or isds registered ive seen hundreds of ads for collies none of them have been kc registered and there was no mention of health tests which iasnt a surprise considering most collies go for around £100

I know were there are fully tested ISDS dogs(& all ISDS registered dogs have to be eye tested @ some time in their lives to be registered with the ISDS) The breeder of my Rjj fully health tests & to buy a puppy from parents that haven't been fully health tested just because they are cheap is not responsible especially if the dog is intended for a high impact sport like agility

Still each to their own

youve taken what i said wrong yet again when did i say that i would buy a un health tested parentage pup because it was cheap? i was merely stating that you will find hundreds more un health tested than you will tested, and i also know that isds registered dogs have eye certificates because i have a isds registration certificate here in my hand which clearly states that the parents have been examined for and at this date are free of progressive retinal atrophy and collie eye anomaly

Carrington, it is all it represents.  Showing is all about an animal looking right; looking perfect in fact.  I don't like it.  I have been to many cat shows and a lot of the cats are scared, they don't like it, and they are bred to such 'standards' as it affects their health. 

Why does a dog have to look right?  Why are you only classed as a 'responsible breeder' if your dogs look a certain way?  Why is that what it has to be about?  It just isn't about that for me, that's what I'm saying.

We don't do it with people, so why do it with animals?

Hayley, in one of your earlier posts you said :- "breeding isnt the be all and end all, and if i did go into agility or obedience i would use a collie and it wouldnt be a kc registered one"

So you wouldn't bother going to the expense of hip scoring a collie before using it in agility?   Do you not think that you could cause untold damage to a dog by taking this attitude?    After all, you wouldn't expect an athlete not to be health-checked before competing in the Olympics - or would you?

Of course you are going to find more dogs that are not health-tested than those that are - but what we keep trying to get across to you is that RESPONSIBLE OWNERS/BREEDERS do health test!

The back yard breeders don't bother - they have the same attitude as you are expressing.

This thread seems to be going round in circles.

IMO:- the best advice for aspiring judges is - only one person per class will respect your opinion and ultimately nearly everyone else will think you're either dishonest or thick so think carefully before you embark on judging.

The best looking dogs don't always have the best looking offspring - a plain, modest looking (unshown) bitch of mine always produced better than her champion sister.

When you enter a show you are paying for someones opinion, if you don't like it dont show under them again.

Saying that working breeds dont have to look like the breed they are supposed to represent, surely means that you should stop calling them by the breed name.You can then chose from other breeds to get the desired traits and make a crossbreed which most suits your purpose.

Carrington, it is all it represents.  Showing is all about an animal looking right; looking perfect in fact.  I don't like it.  I have been to many cat shows and a lot of the cats are scared, they don't like it, and they are bred to such 'standards' as it affects their health. 

Why does a dog have to look right?  Why are you only classed as a 'responsible breeder' if your dogs look a certain way?  Why is that what it has to be about?  It just isn't about that for me, that's what I'm saying.



I am not Carrington, but....

The point in breeding to standards is so that the dog breed we love continues to look like the breed we love. A lot of people love Golden Retrievers because of all their qualities, including how they look.  I would like my Golden Retrievers to keep looking lke Golden Retrievers. If we vere away from the breed standards, they will not. That particular breed is bred for working, and so has to be healthy in order to stay fit and healthy whilst working. The breed standard takes into account what te dog is bred to do. I appreciate a small percentage of breeds can be unhealthy, but that is a different discussion entirely, as it only affects a small percentage of breeds, and nothing to do with the majority who bred to standards.

joannemay, I totally support your right to turn your back on pedigree dogs.  Lots of people choose to buy, or preferably adopt, mongrels but this discussion is about responsible breeding, which with the exception of activity dogs will involve pure breeding.  If people choose to opt for a pedigree, which they are equally entitled to do, I believe they should buy from someone that offers the best chance of providing them with a puppy that will grow to resemble the breed they want the closest.  With very few exception well bred pedigrees are healthy.

Without a breed standard how would anyone even know they were even getting the breed they think, it could be a cross. The KC have shows etc to keep the breed standard there, so everyone knows what the breed of dog is supposed to look like, so that others can continue to breed the dogs which they all agree are the best of breed.

These should be the foundations of breeding stock.

It doesn't take anything away from those who do not come upto the standard set, yes they can and are still wonderful dogs, with great temperaments and great friends to us, and yes, it is very important that a dog is also this way too, but if the breed standard is let slip, then the breed would change.........

Which is why Crufts and the like are very important.

I agree that there are some breeds who have been bred for looks and not health, Bulldog etc, but there are breeders pushing to change this, and I dare say in cats too. :-)

Beat me to it Jackson. :-)

The back yard breeders don't bother - they have the same attitude as you are expressing.

that is a very sneaky way of making out im a byb if you were stood in front of me now id knock you out of all the nasty underhanded things to say you wouldnt believe how much that makes my blood boil

hayley123, I am appalledat that comment. I think it says a lot about you as a person. :-(

good cus im appalled at someone making out im a back yard breeder so you say all you want ive had it with you lot, youre all just a bunch of know alls who dont really know much at all

Hayley, all I know about you, I have learned about you from your posts.  If you don't like the impression you have given ....well - there's nowt to be said!

because they are bred to have certain factors of appearence for a reason, each physical attribute of a breed is there to aid its working purpose (usually). for example the construction of my breed as heavy at the front is to give a good sort of 'battering ram' for taking down poachers, eyes are dark so less likely seen at night etc. its certainly not about being pretty.

also...

> I have been to many cat shows and a lot of the cats are scared, they don't like it

doesn;t really happen with dogs, a scared dog doesn;t show well and so does not win and so is not worth the expense of showing it. only if your dog likes it and doesn;t win would most continue showing

right so where did i say that i wouldnt health test and or think that its not necessary?

Maybe Admin should know about this thread, or the moderators, and STOP IT.

Its going round in circles, and there is absolutely no point in continueing this topic at all.  Its making people VERY upset, and there is no useful information now being offered.  It is the same thing over and over again.

if you were stood in front of me now id knock you out 

Now, I understand why you do not show, with an attitude like that you would no doubt be thumping the judge if he passed over your dog.

If you have an issue by all means express it, but violence is never the answer..........

Hayley123 said

> im a byb if you were stood in front of me now id knock you out

That's the impression I get from your posts. You say you don't care about showing, then claim you show. You say working ability is what matters - but say you don't work your dogs either. You say you don't have the best bitches but still breed them - why else if not for money then? If you're serious about a breed, study it and then buy a better bitch in - show her and take it from there.

And as for your earlier comment about my dogs, yes I do work - I work night shift and the dogs are alone for between 6 and 8 hours a night - just like most dogs are when their owners are asleep! Yes, on the very odd occasion that one has had an upset tummy they have had an accident in the house, twice in the last 3 years that I can think of - that doesn't bother me. I'm sure I'm not the only dog owner who has had to clear up the after effects of an upset tum.

Poor Hayley,

You really do paint quite a picture of yourself don't you?

Tigger2: To be fair, I don't own the best bitches in the country either (IMHO) but still breed from them and I can take or leave showing depending on my mood so Hayley isn't out on a limb here. Where she does let her self down, on this forum, is in her frustration to get her point across, she's sometimes threatening and a bit rough and ready but I'm sure that there are much worse dog owners and breeders than her.
Play nicely now children.