hello everyone im new to the site.
i will give a little about myself and then perhaps you will have a better idea on how to answer my question.
i am 29 years old i have three young children and two rottweilers and a tiny tiny yorkie.
in febuary this year my bitch gave birth to 8 healthy puppies.and i must say ive been verbally bashed so badly by other rottie owners saying how is it possible i didnt know,but i knew nothing of the puppies until the day they were born!its true.i had her examined by a vet (not my usual one he was on holiday)who said she wasnt pregnant and had the cheif vet examine her too.to my relief i took her home put her on a diet and bought a treadmill.i was still not belived by many people.
i didnt go out to get my male rottie infact i went to view the bitch in the litter and the breeder knew i was coming for the bitch and still sold her to someone eles before i could view her,and after travelling for 3 hours i decided to take him home as it seemed like it was meant to be!
so,i went for a college interview and husband let the dogs together not realising it takes once and only minutes to catch a bitch,its such a long story and i dont want to bore anyone with really long details.
anyway i am really interested in learning how to become a responsible breeder.i keep in touch with all my pups new owners and they all say good things about me so i must be doing something right.my pups all went with kc reg injections endorsments and everything a good breeder would give.i stayed awake pretty much every night when my pups were born through worry of losing one,i have read up and done tonnes of research.i still want to know more but absolutly everyone i speak to says it will be frowned upon.i never get a good recption from anyone.i am a good person and my dogs are lovely (i know there is more to breeding than a pretty dog)
i had my dogs booked in to be hip scored the minute those pups were born for the sake of the new owners.ive been told off for that saying ive only done it so i can breed again well thats not true i did it for them and now yes ive changed my mind.is there anyone out there who thinks that i could be doing the right thing or am i really not doing the right thing.
both my dogs are lovely natured and are healthy have hips scores of 4/3 and 4/3 have champions in their lines many in fact and i want others to have well brought up dogs like i have.do you really have to show your dogs to be a responsible breeder?i cant show i have small children and showing takes a lot of time comitment and a lot of travelling,im not sure thats a place for children.
anyone who can advise me id be ever so grateful.many thanx.xxx

If you are not able to show, or work your dogs I don't think you can ever really fit the picture of a responsible breeder as you can never really know that the quality of your dogs is up to the mark.  The other issue is whether your male and female are a good match with a view to improvement.  It seems so unlikely that this could happen by accident, most breeder reach out across the country and beyond looking for the best match.
Have you read the two threads at the top of the breeding forum regarding responsible breeding of both dogs and bitches?

It has been known many times for vets to say a bitch isn't pregnant for them to have pups.  We had a Pomeranian years ago who was hard to mate.  We took her to the studs house at one time and left her there, she told us that she hadn't been successful.  Well 8 weeks later we were sure that she was pregnant.  We took her to the vets and were told in no uncertain terms that she definitely wasn't pregnant.

That night we put her to bed and thought no more.  I went to her in the morning and there she was with four extremely healthy pups, this is a breed where 2 is the norm!

I actually don't agree that you have to show to be a responsible breeder.  I know a number of people who have excellent examples of their breed but don't show.  I only show as a hobby and attend only about 6 shows a year.  I do however do obedience, (agility on and off) water training and gundog training with my dogs, so I do do everything that the breed enjoys.

You were extremely lucky though with those hipscores. If you are seriously wanting to breed your dogs then get out and about with them and meet up with people who know everything about the breed and get advice from them.  If they advise that they are not a suitable pair make sure that you use a dog that will go well with your bitches breeding etc.

Hi tamar,

Your on champdogs *hint, hint* :-D

Which means that most of the people on the forum who breed have had success in the show world or the working to show that their dogs are good specimens of the breed in that they have the look of the breed standard or the abilities to do the job they were born for. It is very important to show this and the character and temperaments, this makes a dog or bitch viable to be bred from.

Health checks and hip scrores etc, are just a part of what makes a good breeding dog at least in the eyes of those who are in the dog world and as you have come to a site that has many champion breeders on it, who made the champions not just ones in the pedigree, you are going to clearly get this answer from most of us here. Not to mention Isabels point that it should take a little studying to match which dog and bitch together.

It is a different world from just health checking and having nice pets.   So this is the answer to your question on what makes a good breeder, however, not the answer to what makes a reputable breeder. IMO you have acted very well in all of this, you've immediately had your dogs hips checked and are offering a good service to your puppies owners, have read and done the best that you could in the circumstances, so I commend you on that, you have been as reputable as you possibly could be in learning of your bitches pregnancy at such a late stage and are continuing to be a good source of info for your puppies owners, reputable breeders are there for life for their pups and able to pass on knowledge to help with everything from training to re-homing if necessary.

So, well done on what you have achieved and you haven't deserved an ear bashing from other Rotti owners, IMO you have acted responsibly.

However, to breed again and earn respect from others you really should now look into showing. :-)

> I know a number of people who have excellent examples of their breed but don't show. 

Amongst the people who do not show are also an enormous number of dogs that aren't excellent examples.  Fine, if people have some other method of aquiring the knowledge to judge their own animals or have a mentor with all the requisite knowledge to guide them step by step but I think it is not right to allow anyone to think if they believe their dog to be a lovely example that is quite enough.

it sounds like given the limited info you had at the time you did the best you could. fyi if in future your dog catches your bitch (its so easy done as you'v learned) you can get the bitch an injection to terminate the litter.

the bashing you got from other rotti owners was perhaps unfounded but it was probably based on genuine concern. i don;t agree with them shouting at you but please try and consider that they all love their breed and 'hobby' breeders, puppy farmers etc are causing them enormous risk by breeding porr specimnes (mainly in temprement). given the number of attacks by rotts recently, ones of iffy temprement, they are concenred about a ban perhaps coming in.

however you do seem to have done your very best to produce a good litter from the accident.

showing gives the opportunity to have your dog compared against others to judge its quality. in an over bred and fairly specialist breed like the rotti its pretty vital to ensure your breeding the very very best examples of the breed, they should not be bred lightly. if a brilliant stud and bitch are bred together by a fantastic known breeder the best new owners will go for theirs, not unshown dogs.

having said that we bred out bullmastiff bitch who is not shown. however, she was bred to a champion stud who's owner asked us to use her because she is a decent example with a stunning temprement, so the dog does not always have to be a champ to be worth breeding.

breeding is done to further the breed and add quality, health and vigour. the sim is always improvement. if your dogs will improve this often poorly owned and bred breed then breed them if they are not in every way shining examples of this tremendous but challenging breed then i'd hold back.

btw, how old are your kids? you might find they quite enjoy shows :) its a good day out (to watch at least! not done the actual showing myself)

hello all and thank you all so much for posting.
i am a little better off in the know now and am a bit wiser through reading your replys.everyone has been very kind in what they have said and i appreciate it all.
just a little more information on what people have asked or said.i would love to show my dogs i have looked into it but come to a dead end as i know of no one who would advise me or help me.its all so difficult to get into.i have bought the paper dogs world and the dog magazines but get no joy really.but its definatly not something id rule out,to be honest id love to show.what greater way to show off your babies?(dogs)
my children are 2 and half 7 and 10.hubby works long hours and its difficult to leave all three with him when its been a long day.we do work together but i wouldnt want to put anymore on him than i already do lol.
in my opinion (and of course you guys know so much more than myself its why i came to champdogs) i think two of the pups that came out of troy and bella are blooming good looking dogs.they are doing well in obedience and training i wish them well and love to hear from them.troy is really good he does so well in classes and bella loves to please equally.i have researched this breed for soo long but have come to a halt as i can no longer find a book that interestes me with how rotties behave and how to treat one what to do in the wrong situation,im not saying i know it all im saying i want to learn more.im a very good handler i know that im always complimented on my dogs and ability to handle dogs and other peoples problems.ive helped people train thier dogs and have an understanding of the dogs mind and how to help with behaviour.(id love to train more in this area but with dog grooming and dogs and kids id probably colapse)lol

i resent the comment about not being a responsible breeder if you dont show, i dont show and it is purely because having been to many many shows it seems very catty and clicky, really cant be doing with people like that, all my dogs come from show winning bloodlines, health screened and above all excellent temperaments and i think that makes me very responsible. Many dogs make superb companions and bring alot of joy to peoples lives without winning everything at a show! sorry but i think alot in the show world depends on who you know not what you know.
Also i spend ALL day with dogs, they are not left regularly like a lot of dogs when their owners go off to make a name for themselves, i know where my dogs would rather be given the option of prancing round the ring or playing games and being loved all day.

i do not have anything against people who show as i have alot of friends that do, but please do not look down on someone who chooses not to, there dogs could be just as good or better than some that are shown. also i have 4 neutered dogs that have been neutered because i can honestly say they are not of breeding quality so i do care about what i produce too. :)

i'm sure that you'll find some people ablt to help with the showing side of things on here- maybe post looking for advise on showing rotties?  the youngest sounds a bit wee but how about maybe getting the older ones interested in juniour handling? kids learn so quickly i bet they'd be teaching you shortly lol :) i was actually pleasently surprised how many little kids i've seen handling rotties recently. if you and the kids were showing you;d all get a day out from it.

calm down there!

> there dogs could be just as good or better than some that are shown

quite probably, but without showing how on earth do you know? the purpose of showing is principally (though there are many other reasons) to compare dogs against each other to ascertain the best breeding stock.

> Many dogs make superb companions and bring alot of joy to peoples lives without winning everything at a show!

of course they do, the majority of pups bred from winners go to pet homes. in my breed you often get big litters, out of say 7 or 8 pups most cannot hope to get more than 1 or 2 real show stars, the rest go to be pets. still why not have them be excellently bred pets.

Several of us on here have children and take them to shows with us. My youngest was just weeks old when she was at her first :-) She is now 14 and though we have have one or little problems (joining me in the ring at 2 1/2 years old being one ;-) ) we generally manage. Your oldest 2 in particular are old enough to join you, and help out. It helps their feeling of respnsibility :-) That way you would only have to leave the youngest at home. I'd start out at local shows, whether they are open or limited shows doesn't matter. It's the starting point. Taking the children to these ones is far easier than a major Championship show. There is far less space for them to get lost in ;-) You can then decide whether to go to your local Championship Show (my nearest is nearly 2 hours drive away........... ;-) )

Ideally you need to find a ringcraft club in your area. Where are you? Maybe someone on here could put you in the right direction. The children might also want to join in with the showing, you never know.

As to the breeding, even experienced breeders can have accidents. Does anyone blame them? I doubt it. It has happened, you have acted as responsible as you can under the circumstances, so all you need to do is learn from it. Don't let hubby get away with it again :-D

oh belive me matthew isnt allowed to do nothing with my dogs anymore! when my first pup was born he was watching it and i was in tescos i had to leave what i was doing and come home asap,speaking to him on loud speaker all the tim.when i got home i called for him to fetch towels water for bella ect ect and i was crying and overjoyed at the same time.he said tam im so so so sorry i didnt realise well at the time i thought he was talking about what to do when pup was being born and him having to call me home lol.he meant leaving them alone.he knows what hes done! he panics now even if shes not in season and they're having a tumble in the garden bless him he will call me and say tam!!!! them dogs get em.pmsl.i have to laugh.
i think im going to have a look at the little local shows again and post help on how to show.i had no idea kids could join in at that age thank you for that.i also have a teeny tiny yorkie id like to show her too.we'll see.(not for breeding)
as for ring craft area im in romford essex i belive my closest is chelmsford i could be wrong.

> i resent the comment about not being a responsible breeder if you dont show

I'm sorry if you resent it but to be fair I have acknowleged there are other methods of assertaining if you have a dog of adequate quality such as breeding from proven working stock or breeding under the guidance of someone who does have the necessary experience.

> Also i spend ALL day with dogs, they are not left regularly like a lot of dogs when their owners go off to make a name for themselves, i know where my dogs would rather be given the option of prancing round the ring or playing games and being loved all day.

I have always shown very little because both myself and my dogs have never got a great deal of excitement out of spending the day at a show.  Showing in itself has never been what you would call a hobby to me but I could see that there was no getting away from the fact I could not learn what I needed to know from books.  None of my dogs have ever been left alone all day.  If they could not all come Hubby would stay at home.  I think a great many show dog owners these days treat their dogs primarily as pets and would make similar arrangements.

> had no idea kids could join in at that age thank you for that

i wish i'd been more involved in it as a kid! i'd love to get into it in the future when i have the right dog, it'll take a lot of research on my part though as it all seems like a foreign language lol! where as you see kids at shows looking supremely confident and skilled. guess its like learning anything, younger you start the better

thats the whole point, i feel my puppies ARE excellently bred, and to be honest i am being labelled as irresponsible because i dont show so i feel entitled to be a little annoyed. i devote my entire day everyday to my dogs and put alot of effort into my breeding plans, (i would like to add i have only bred once a year until this year as i have my second on its way in two weeks) using studs that are shown and if my girl wasnt thought to be good enough they would not of allowed me to use their boys at all.

like i say i have nothing against people who choose to show, but it is simply not acceptable to label people who dont as irresponsible. very unfair indeed. :(

You are entitled to your view and I am entitled to mine whether that seems fair to you or not.  For me feeling is not good enough I would want some confirmation.

no one labled you as irresponsible, i certainly didn;t as if you take the time to read my original post fully you'll see that my bitch, who has been bred from, is not shown. the studs owner asked to use her with her stud because she felt they complimented each other well and her temp is bombproof. she wanted a bitch like kiz to have pups from for the list of people who wanted this dogs pups.

> like i say i have nothing against people who choose to show

really?

>>they are not left regularly like a lot of dogs when their owners go off to make a name for themselves, i know where my dogs would rather be given the option of prancing round the ring or playing games and being loved all day.

where does that come from then?

> didnt go out to get my male rottie infact i went to view the bitch in the litter and the breeder knew i was coming for the bitch and still sold her to someone eles before i could view her,and after travelling for 3 hours i decided to take him home as it seemed like it was meant to be!
>

Hi Tamara,
Having read this thread I think you did the best you could under the circumstances. Vets, even with scans, often get it wrong. As for hip testing that depends if your going to breed again?

Don't take this the wrong way, the bit I have quoted above. I am always amazed at how many people, first they have an un-spayed bitch, then go out and buy a dog, they say it was an accident, what do they expect will happen!!!! It is very hard to keep dogs and bitches apart and yes it only takes once. I will not sell a male puppy to some-one who already has an un-spayed female or vis versa.

If you do breed again, make sure you give her at least a 12 months break.
We three young kids to look after it must have been hard rearing puppies as well.
We done for KC registering them and also endorsements. :-)

yes really!!!!!!! as stated i have many friends who do show, so clearly they wouldnt be my friends if i was against it

Also why would i use stud dogs from people that show? i simply stated that i choose not to leave my dogs at home so i can show and having been to shows myself i have seen a few dogs that clearly dont enjoy the day, but as pointed out earlier on here everyone has the right to their own opinion.

sorry my comment wasnt directed at you astarte you didnt label me irresponsible that was isabel who obviously is the perfect breeder as she does show!

i am very proud of the puppies i have produced and have kept a puppy or 2 from every litter i have had, health and temperament should always be most important followed by breed type in my opinion.

i take no offence but will defend my point in saying i kept my bitch away from my dog twice before the accident.she and troy were kept seperate while she was in season.it was my other half who caused the problem i was very responsible when it came to those two.
i always wanted as far back as i can remember two rottie bitches and thats what i went to view.troy was in conditions they tell you to walk away from,but i took him anyway. i was advised not to get him castrated until he was two or it would stunt his growth and i didnt want that for him so i took that advise.i was also advised against getting my bitch speyed before she was two by my vet.ive had the same vet for 11 years i tend to trust his opinion.
this isnt to have a go at your opinion i do not want it to come accross this way i want you to clearly understand i genuinly had a problem on my hands which i think i handled really well for someone who knows jack about breeding whelping or finding the right home without being lied to.
all my pups are in good hands.
i enjoyed raising them and learning about breed specifics to more detail the publics view on the docking ban showing quality and some complete idiots out there too! i want to do it again but only if its the right thing,not for money cos ill tell you i spent every penny i had on my pups and i got hardly nothing back.i didnt break even,but somehow they were worth it.

Well, obviously Mandy, with your 13 children you must know all about breeding!  

How do you manage to breed dogs as well????

> Well, obviously Mandy, with your 13 children you must know all about breeding

If that's true the poor woman deserves a medal. :-)
How would she ever have time to show dogs anyway?

my 13 children all have four legs!  They are the only children i have and i wouldnt have it any other way they are my world!

tamara,
Have you ever considered working trials with your dogs?
They have decent hips and you say they have good bidable temperaments -they are a working breed after all. It is a great sport for you and your dogs and the things you learn about how their mind and body work is amazing.
The thrill of walking behind your dog doing it's first successful track takes some beating. It will amaze you what your dogs are capable of.

no.i havent thought of working trials.do you mean hunting?i couldnt do that.but i have thought of agility.but if you mean something eles like herding then no im open to suggestions lol

No not hunting.
It is a test of a dogs natural abilities. Their ability to use their nose by following a track (laid by a human!) and finding hidden objects, their obedience and agility.
No furry animals will be hurt :-)

nope will look into that.have heard the dogs absolutly love it and cant wait to get off on trail.thanx

isabel obviously isnt the perfect breeder considering she herself admitted that she dont show that much, and i have to say that you dont have to show to be able to know what a good dog is, i dont show alot but i can tell what is a good dog and what isnt,even some champions ive seen dont look that great

The amount of shows attended is hardly the issue rather the contacts and opportunity to see good dogs and their breeders.

i agree with you it is about contacts and opportunity, i just wish that people would stop saying you need to show to be able to breed/be a good breeder etc as it just isnt true, like you said its about contacts and opportunity, and im sure that most breeders who produce good stuff wouldnt have any problem with people seeing thier stock you wouldnt even have to go to shows to ask all you would need to do would be join a breed club, get a year book, look through the kennel reviews and phone up and ask, easy

even some champions ive seen dont look that great

and what gives you authority to make this statement? are you a show judge in whatever breed you mean? how can they not look great if they are champions? or is the whole thing a conspiracy?

> all you would need to do would be join a breed club

Many breed clubs require you to be nominated and seconded to join which is generally not achieved unless you get out there and show people that you are truly interested in learning and contributing.
I am certainly not a perfect breeder but going to shows even lightly has provided the ability to learn far beyond looking through year books and "kennel reviews" (whatever they are) and it has taught me this is very much an ongoing process.

hi hayley123, glad to hear from someone else with a bit of common sense, showing is about the breed standard and if you are into your breed and as i do have many friends that show and have even judged then you should know what the breed standard requires and any faults within your own breed. hence not needing to take my own dogs into the ring, if my dogs were not close enough to breed standard and more importantly didnt have sound temperaments and health then i wouldnt consider breeding from them which is why i have 4 neutered dogs along with another very beautiful girl who not only has a wonderful temperament and screams breed type wont ever be bred due to very sad circumstances. i would like to add that all these dogs will remain with me forever as i dont pass on dogs that dont quite make the grade either as i see many show people do.

would like to hear from more Responsible breeders who choose not to show

isabel so i take it that you arent a member of a breed club considering that you dont know what kennel reviews are

and what gives you authority to make this statement? are you a show judge in whatever breed you mean? how can they not look great if they are champions? or is the whole thing a conspiracy

well that goes to show how much you know doesnt it

>so i take it that you arent a member of a breed club considering that you dont know what kennel reviews are

I am but I'm afraid that is something I haven't learned yet, you will need to enlighten me :-)

in the section of your year book where there are adverts for kennels that breed/show what does it say on the page that introduces the section?

Nothing.  Straight into the kennel advertisements.  Do you mean your club actually states an opinion on individual kennels?  Who writes the review?

on the page im on about it says members kennel reviews

how much club advertising rates are for whole/half page and where to send advertising material to

Hi, I have to say that I no longer show any of my dogs due to the 'facey' nature of the judging during the last few years. I soon tired of hearing who was going to win before i had even entered the ring. I believe to much value is placed on the look of the show dog with less regard to how it is to live with i.e how many top dogs are kennelled. The temperament and health must come before anything else in any breed, particularly as the majority of pedigree puppies sold go to pet homes. I would class myself as a responsible breeder having had my bitches health checked and only bred 2 litters in the last 17 years of owning my breed. I have nothing against anyone showing but do not consider it to be the bench mark to responsible breeding. There are many people like myself that study the history and background of their chosen breed and can make good judgements of pairings without using the current 'big winner'.

Not all year books are the same. I have experience of two and neither have a page with kennel reviews on. 

No, neither of the clubs I belong to publish a "kennel review"  Can you tell me what sort of thing it covers?  "Members kennels reviews"?  Do you mean members review each others kennels?  By eck, that's a brave club :-)

Out of interest though where did you gain your initial experience to be able to make these decisions?

> I believe to much value is placed on the look of the show dog with less regard to how it is to live with i.e how many top dogs are kennelled.

The two are not mutally exclusive.  People deserve to buy puppies that are not only reared to good standards of welfare but also that they resemble in appearance and temperament the breed they have sought.

well im not sure about the review parts all it is is people advertising their own kennels with their results etc, not sure about the whole review just thats what theyve always used i think, i have books going back to 91 and it says it in there so im guessing theyve always used it

> people advertising their own kennels

and you feel this can form the basis of peoples education?
I'm afraid I've learnt nothing from this thread to convince me that there is a way of learning to breed good quality dogs or to test our belief that we are learning and improving without attending shows or at least finding some other way for suitably qualified people to guide us and examine our progress.

no i meant you can see ads phone the advertiser and then go and look at their stuff

> you can see ads phone the advertiser and then go and look at their stuff

Not everyone will let you just ring up to pop round and see 'their stuff' - they're not running a zoo.
Most pages in year books are what's called 'vanity' ads- not actually selling anything just bragging about their wins or showing off their current dog. These people may be somewhat resistant to the idea of a new breeder popping round to pick their brains :-o