I have 2 saints ellie is nearly 2 and abi is 15 months we got abi when she was a year old we had her litter sister but she sadly passed away ellie and berni(litter sister) got on great but now with abi we have fights nearly every day its very scary to watch and they have to be seperated as they dont give in! We feed them seperate and they are house dogs any ideas on how we can get over this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanx Lorri

I think people who have to resort to keeping dogs apart just run a rota system to ensure each dogs gets a spell of time in the garden, with their people and exercised.  How you manage that will depend on the layout of your home and how easy it will be to exercise the security necessary ie whether you have young children that might leave doors open.  I have no doubt it will be very hard work and time consuming but others manage it.  If you think it is going to be impossible and you are likely to compromise the safety of these dogs or the people that are going to have to handle such fights if they break out with such large dogs it might be better to consider rehoming one while they are young and more adaptable.  The breed rescue may be able help in such circumstances if their breeder cannot for any reason.

There is no way i could rehome any of my dogs and for 99% of the time they are happy and play together it just tends to be before or after feeding time but having spoke to various people i think we are going to build kennels and feed them outside and hopefully that will ease the tension between them at feeding time.

Ah! Well if it is just feeding times that should be a lot easier as many people feed their dogs seperately to prevent stealing anyway.  Not sure what your kennels will be intended for though.  I would have thought feeding one outside and one inside or in seperate rooms would be enough.  I don't think spending too much time apart would be helpful as it is likely to escalate their differences I would have thought.  It is possible as they mature that their scaps may increase anyway, two bitches not getting on can be like that, and I think the danger may be that they will become largely kennel dogs.  Personally I feel rehoming may actually be kinder.

Have they been spayed?  I think maybe not yet in such a large breed.  My last pair of bitches scrapped occasionally but I found this stopped when the "bossier" one of the two, which was the only one entire at that point, was spayed.

M problem is we want to breed but probably just the younger 1 as ellie is quite up 2 standard i might have a word with the vet about spaying the older 1 but she has just had major surgery which is always riskier in big dogs so would have to consider it very carefully! It's not always easy with dogs but they're part of the family its hard :(

If you are finding it difficult to manage two not sure how you would manage more.  If you kept a bitch it could lead to more jealousies and if you are planning to keep a dog but did not spay the bitches you would have the nightmare of keeping these large dogs apart when they were in season.

I had to rehome a bitch as she was fighting with her older half sister :-( Not all the time, in fact they got on reasonably well, but when they decided to fight fur really flew. I never knew when it was going to flare up, and I had no intention of trying to keep them apart every day just in case they decided to have a tiff that I couldn't manage. It took me several months to decide to let one go to a new home and I have never regretted it. There was 18 months of an age difference between them.

You have 2 bitches that are relative young and they haven't yet fully matured so they will try to find out who is going to be the dominant one. If you spay the wrong bitch it will only make things worse. You have to keep the dominant one entire. Even if she is the older of the 2 :-( If you do decide to breed from the younger one then you will have to keep them both entire, I would have thought. If they are only arguing at feeding time then the easiest thing is to feed them separately, but I don't see why you need a kennel, unless you intended to get one anyway and it has nothing to do with them fighting.

The old saying comes to mind:

Dogs fight for the right to breed, Bitches fight for the right to breathe........

> You have to keep the dominant one entire

I'm not sure if it is that straight forward, perhaps it is an individual thing as that was the situation we already had.  Peace settled once they were both spayed.
I would also add that the bossy one was fine until she had a litter I think this gave her ideas above herself :-)

I have saints as well we have 2 bitchs that do not get along at all . When we had the second one , we got her at 7 months old , for a while her and my older bitch got on but as time went on they began to have more and more fights . First they could start over my attention , then this esculated to being in same room together , but were ok out doors .Then when youngest ones seasons started , they would fight outside too . I became worried they would do serious damage to each , Other so decided to part them permantley .We now have gates every , where kids under strist instructions never to let them together . They never did each other any damage but they noise was terrible had a few teeth marks in lips but that was all .One thing I will say it did take 3 people to seperate all 3 dogs if there was a fight as none of the dogs would never back down thats why i made the decision to seperate permantley , as if any one on ther home alone at that time would not be able to manage . I must also say both dogs live in , but I have a kennel and run  and during day time we alternate one dog in living room at a time . At night one sleeps in living room the other in large hallway . At the time I had a 3rd bitch that was daughter of older one who was absolutely fine with her mother but if fights broke out felt she had to join in with her mum it did take a while to get used to and its not an idea situation but i love both dogs you have to be prepared for a fair bit of inconvienience . the youngest one has just had pups and i am going to keep a bitch any advice on is there any way to insure she gets on with both my other bitches or will i just have to keep her with her mum .  My dogs are now 6 and 4 .

Unfortunately there is no way to insure the pup will get on with either of your bitches. Just because one would be her Mother doesn't guarantee they will get on once the pup is mature.

Reading this thread with interest just a question- When my dog had a male on male dog fight which sadly the other dog was killed- when the dog warden came to my house as the owner rightly contacted the police & dog warden, When her I told her that he had recently been studded and I assumed that was why he had gone aggressive ? She turned to me and said he will be no good for breeding now because of his temperament ? Now I know that with everything he is good apart from other male dogs ?
If the owner of these fighting Bernard bitches is going to be breeding from them- will it be a problem with the puppies temperament or not. I became offended at the time by what this dog warden told me, was she right in that assumption- that fighting dogs should not be breed from at all ? 

I have only ever used dogs with a 110% temperament at stud(as a stud dog owner & a breeder)& because my dogs had  such good temperaments these didn't change after they were used at stud.  The selection of dogs & bitches for breeding has to be two fold temperament & health-then closely followed by type(as in fit for purpose & close to the breed standard)

Breeding from any dog that has dog to dog aggression problems or dog to human aggression or fear is a big no no

So really are you saying that the lady owning these 2 bitches would be no good to breed from? I suppose in this day and age with being such a high population of dogs living together they should all live in harmony. Just interesting that someone said not sure who before- dogs fight for sex... bitches to breath.

Well I wouldn't but that's just me

Definitely can see your reasons when breeding properly need to breed from the very best. I love my dog very much but after owning several others- I do hate the fact I can not relax when taking him out due to what happened and for that issue not to exist would be a dream.. I have thought owning a bitch [after he has pasted] thinking that it would not arise with a bitch- but as I already own a bitch worried that if I brought another BT bitch into my home they could end up fighting! Think I will just stick with my one girl after my old boy has gone. It's just too much stress.

I have had to rehome twice - one because of 2 bitches fighting and just a couple of weeks ago because of boys fighting.  Our recent situation was that the fights were getting worse and not over only one thing.  ~We did the keeping apart and giving them each time with us and in the garden separately.  When we put them back together they were wary of each other but things improved.  However a week or so on and something else would spark the fight.  Very frightening and very difficult to break up even with standard dachsies.  Both times it was my favourite that went for various reasons.   My heart has nearly broken over the last incident but in the end it was the only thing we could do for the dogs - it just wasn't fair on them and we had to put their welfare before our emotions.  We did see a behaviourist early on and she advised after we had rehomed that it was a complex problem.  Have you thought about a behaviourist to help you?  I think anything is worth a try to make things work. 

The problem is that Ellie and Abi just don't have enough of an age difference, it is the key to the whole problem.

It does not mean that either is not of good temperament,

They are both most probably similar in size and weight and obviously of similar character, so they will continue to bang heads over and over, as both wish to be Alpha bitch, bitches can get along great until the adolescent stage and Abi may well have allowed Ellie to 'act' as the elder more Alpha female, but now that Abi is an adolescent she obviously feels she is just as capable and both will continue to challenge one another whenever an issue comes up, food, bones, toys, first to the lead, anything at all will set them off to show who is the higher ranking bitch.

It's not going to go away. And yes, they may well get on fantastic for 90% of the time, but during that 10% terrible injury may well occur. Left to their own devices they would warn each other and if neither backed down they would fight it out, bitches really show no mercy when both are challengers and unsupervised they would have no qualms in killing each other, even if they are best of friends for most of the time, that is just how bitches are.

The kennels are a good idea, only due to the size and weight of the dogs, that way you could have them in the home one at a time so that you bond with each one individually, as well as any other pups or dogs that may come along.  Hopefully you will still be able to walk them together, but you shall have to see if they use the walks to have little snipes at each other if so that will have to stop too.

Perhaps 12 months from now the problem may not be the same only time will tell.

Going from experience of what I have seen spaying an older bitch does not stop her from being the acting Alpha, even when those lower ranking bitches have litters it does not elevate them above a spayed Alpha in a domestic situation at all. So spaying Ellie may not help with that issue.

If you can kennel them, it gives you more time to see how things go, and if the worst comes to the worst, you can keep them seperated with the kennels.

In anwser about breeding from my bitches . I have never had a problem while walking either dog or at a show the problem they have is with each other on our premises . I am sure that many other people have this happen to them whether they choose to admit it you often her of problems on this website .  I think its an heirarchy problem at home . I know of many breeders who keep certain bitches apart . I think if you keep bitches its inevitable they will have fights espacially when they have been bred from . Are you honestly saying that these bitches shouldn't be bred from ?

i dont think a bitch with aggression to another bitch (especially in the same household) should be scrapped from a breeding program if she is a great example in every other way. i have a bitch who will not get on with any of my bitches that are similar ages, the youngsters she is fine with, the boys she is fine and the pensioner in the family, again no problem, it is purely a heirarchy thing and nothing more at all, she has been bred once and made a fantastic mother and produced stunning puppies who have excellent temperaments and therefore i will repeat that breeding in the future regardless of her aggression with some of my girls. There has to be a pack order and some girls seem to have stronger feeling about their position than others, they are after all individuals too just like us :)
good luck with your girls x

I think if you keep bitches its inevitable they will have fights espacially when they have been bred from .

Not true Carole, many people have packs of dogs and bitches whom live together spayed and unspayed, castrated and not, producing litters and not, the only difference is that age gaps are correct at the time of bringing in new members of the pack, so that heirarchy issues are least likely to occur, it still can, but it lessons the effect significantly. :-)

You are correct though that heirarchy issues are nothing to do with a bitch being good breeding stock, only if the bitch has an uneasy and unpredictable temperament and attackes without warning or provication, I wouldn't breed from a bitch like that, but bitches sorting out pecking ordes is nature, not a sign of bad blood.

I agree.  I have always keep bitches and only had any issues amongst two of them although closeness of age did not seem a factor in that instance as 5 years seperated them.
I also agree that these things do not indicate a aggression problem.  I think the real issue would be if they were at all aggressive towards other dogs either outside or visiting.  I think then you would need to be thinking hard about their temperament.

At what spacing in age would you have between bitches then to stop an heirarchy problem .

I think it can happen at any spacing, well I know it can :-) but that was only once. From the experience of others, though, it does seem to happen rather more frequently when the spacing is closer.

I also think that the problem in my home was due to naivety on my part as I didn't assert my authority enough when bringing in a 7 m0onth old . But you do live and learn i am wiser now and mistakes I made before will not be repeated , I just wanted to say that once a problem happens it is extremely hard to change if at all possible and the size of my dogs makes it more so . Everyone has to learn and its usually by making mistakes that this happens .

Yes, we can't know what we don't know :-)  What about who ever let you have the second one though?  There are more reasons other than hierachical problems for not getting two young ones close together. If they were an experienced breeder they should have given you more guidance on what was advisable.

They were very experienced , but I must be honest it was never suggested to me . I t is more awquard now as they are friends , maybe they should have explained I could have had problems but they had never had any problems with her mixing with there dogs . I think it was change of premises she was also a kennel dog and on coming to my home became an indoor dog , whether this had anything to do withit I don't know . Sometimes I think it was my fault for not dealing with it properly , it was also easier to keep them seperate as they only have to look at each other for a fight to break out . I know other people have bitches getting on but I'm sure I am not the only person who has experianced this

You say in your post trouble seems to be before and after feeding time.

I ALWAYS seperate my dogs when I am preparing thier food its the only time when they seem to 'mooch' around , I have had dogs for over 20 yrs and made the mistake in the early days of thinking I could feed them together 'big mistake ' with two males ,so I have always shut doors and seperated them fed them in thier own feeding areas and pick up the bowls , wash them and let the dogs back together .

> Are you honestly saying that these bitches shouldn't be bred from ?

I personally would not breed from any dog/bitch that dog/dog or dog/human aggression whether it was in the home or outside. I set very high temperament standards(comes from when I had GSDs)& did & will in future only breed from animals which have 110 % characters & temperaments

Hear hear Moonmaiden! Owning dogs is supposed to be a pleasure! And bitches will fight to the death given the chance and the size of these 2 could take someone down with them. Not very nice for them either living with this tension which can only be heightened as they mature and each flare up gets worse.....until??

Breeding puppies is the biggest responsibility of all. I would never buy a puppy from a place where there was gates everywhere, or kenneled. I would expect to see the adults and pups mixing all together. That would speak volumes.

"What should I do if I think my dog is becoming aggressive?" Aggression in dogs is an important behavioral problem; in fact, it is the most common problem seen at animal behavior clinics. Most dogs are content to let people be in charge. These dogs may be protective over food or toys, or favorite sleeping areas. Dominance aggression usually begins at around 18-24 months of age, when dogs become socially mature. As with any behavioral problem, some basic guidelines apply. Set up an appointment with your veterinarian, to talk about the situation and have a thorough physical examination performed. If your dog is aggressive towards people, be realistic with yourself about the situation. Increase the exercise. If your dog is not used to this much exercise, you will need to increase it gradually. Dogs are individuals, and what works best to correct aggressive behavior is different in each case. Avoid potentially dangerous situations. If the dog has already bitten someone, it may be best to have the dog wear a basket muzzle in the house, so that it can have social interaction with the family and not be isolated. Teach your dog that she must earn everything, from you and anyone else, with appropriate, calm behavior. Teach your dog that people have higher status than she does. For any of these exercises to help, they must be used consistently, and the whole family needs to be involved. Sometimes, medication is needed in addition to behavior modification exercises. As noted above, your local veterinarian is the best starting point.

My dogs do not live with any tension at all . They spend equall amounts of time with family and just because they are kept seperate with a gate is no different than many breeders of large breeds breeds whose dogs live out doors and I object to what has been implied . Its no different to certain people who dont get on my dogs have no problem with anyother dog at all . They are excellent examples of the breed and I dont see why having a problem with each other should in effect stop them being bred from . They are a pleasure to own  and I think at 4 and 6 they are already mature and greatly loved by everyone in my family .

reply to '3rd username'/afshanackart

It might be fun for you to do wind up postings on general forums - but I think dangerously stupid to contribute in serious areas of the forum - especially when you just copy and paste from elsewhere

Fortunately the cut'n'paste stuff is quite reasonable and is appropriate to the thread.

As I said in reply to this '3rd username'/afshanackart in other threads........ very smart, annoying, but smart.

Whats this '3rd username' bit about. Are people on a wind up here? Cos if they are they really need to get a life.

Golden Lady : remember the how to and e-smith posts?

I wonder how many usernames we will go through until they grow up.

mmmmmm Lil saddo's, aren't they???

I know Carole's Saints and they do have lovely temperaments and although do have to be kept seperate do spend time with family and are fine when in the company of other dogs.