My bitch started giving birth tonight. Dog live at 4.50pm. Dog live at 5.20pm. Then quickly after this appeard a dead bitch just laying there under her tail didn't even see it come out no bag to take off or anything. Then live bitch at 5.50pm. Live Dog at 6.20pm. Live Dog at 6.55pm. Live Dog at 7.30pm. Then another still born Bitch after this. Live bitch at 8.15pm. Live bitch at 10.15pm. Then still born bitch at 12.45pm was quite stiff when it came out. I had a feeling that this one was going to be still born becuase she had been trying to pass it & was staining with it for about 1 hour maybe a bit more before she gave birth to it.

We worked on the still born bitches for quite a while rubbing vigorously. Swinging it to get mucous out. Dropham V as well. But to no avail.

Does anybody know why there was what we think so many still born in amongst healthy live born pups. & why all bitches of just co-incidence. Was there anything we could have done? I dont think so but we are just bewildered as to why so many still born bitches becuase we think that 3 still born is a lot.

Can anybody shed any light on any of this? Please reply.

I'm so sorry to hear this.

Unless there was anything obvious (eg. ruptured cord and no sack) then you will never know and onyl cause heartbreak trying to fin dout why. My mentor has had at least one still born pup in every litter. She told me to expect it, but I haven't had a stillborn pup. My friend had two stillborns in her litter of 9. Both looked perfectly healthy.

With regards to the last pup though, for future reference, if a bitch is pushing/straining unconstructively for 15-20 minutes or moore, veterinary interevention is requires.

I think that 1st still born had no sack. But they all looked perfectly formed, none had cleft pallet and all looked a healthy weight and size. I think if that last girl had of been born along with the last one at about 10.15pm it would have been OK. But when I felt her I knew there was another couple in there but further back up if you know what I mean & that they needed to obviously move down with the contractions pushing them towards her vulva to be born.

I'm so sorry.  My last litter produced 8 live pups and 3 still born.  All the still born were boys.  Two of the still borns were born at the vets after oxytocin.  I was very sad but I think it just happens sometimes partciularly in large litters.  My frist litter of 10 produced 8 live 2 still born, another litter of 11 was 10 live and 1 still born. 

i would never let a bitch strain for an hour!

There is a possibility that the still-borns all came from the same horn of the uterus.
Sorry to hear about the loss of your babies but be positive, you have a lovely litter to look forward to and there is probably nothing you could have done.

Thank you for that & letting me know, I needed to hear that somebody else had this happen to them.

SARAH1BEE  - Think your comment is quite harsh considering you dont know all the facts. Im looking for support and I do find some breeders a little upperty and above them selves with people on this site who are looking for support at a very sad time. Please dont give me one liners like that again.

Hi Genesis, So sorry to hear of your lose in your litter.

My girl had a litter about 5 weeks ago and the 1st pup born was stillborn, perfectly formed and was one of the biggest out of the litter, we too tryed very hard to bring her round but nothing seemed to work.
She then went on to have two more pups, live and then the 4th Pup was stillborn, girl again, a bit smaller then the first stillborn, but again we tried everything but still could not revive her.
The last born out of the 9, was a boy, he was alive but had a terrible Cleft Pallet and had to go to the vets, there was nothing the vet could do to save him, so sadly he was PTS.
It is very hard to come to turns with the loses in a litter, you ask yourself, is there anything more I could have done, etc: but at the end of the day, as people have told me it is nature, and I have 6 healthy pups and a good healthy mummy dog.
xxx (hug) xxx

genesis so sorry to hear about your loss.

Enjoy the puppies you have and ignore comments from people you dont need to hear at this time its difficult as it is taking care of a litter, good luck with your new babies hope everything goes well from now on.

Roni

> i would never let a bitch strain for an hour

Sara1bee:
I think I can say with some certainty that you don't breed boxers.If we all used that strict rule,there would be very few natural born boxers and vets would be raking it in. There is straining and there is 'straining' and until you experience the birth of many different breeds, it would be difficult to accertain the seriousness of the situation.
Experience dictates understanding that fine line between normal whelping behaviour and a vet emergency - not the clock.

I have just come back from the vets with my bitch & they said it happens. Like you say their is straining and their is straining and this was not emergency straining she looked to be passing them fine. Like the vets said to me on the phone last night she is passing them OK their is no obstruction, there can be breaks inbetween 2 or 3 possible delivers and unless I was unduly worried that everything seemed perfectly normal and fine and this morning the vet gave my bitch a clean bill of health. Let me assure you this was normal whelping behaviour not vet emergency. He put it down to it being a large litter and when they stack up to come out they can get on top of each others umbilical cords and 1 was born without a bag. Just dont go putting in an upperty 1 liner like you did and you still havent appologised or was that it, a longer reply.

In Our litter of 7 5 weeks ago we had 2 born breech without sacks, no cords nothing, luckily we were able to revive, mum knew as she just sat watching us work on her little ones with the odd poke now and then, once she heard the squeak she took over and they latched on and havent looked back since. The bitch went on to have a stillborn 5 days later despite several doses of oxytosin etc!!!!! Vet said it must have been tucked up under rib cage as it wasnt expected

A vet will only do something about a bitch straining for 1 hour if the pup has already been out, so it's not strange for a bitch to push on and off for this length of time.

vet will only do something about a bitch straining for 1 hour if the pup has already been out, so it's not strange for a bitch to push on and off for this length of time.

I appreciate that, but there is a differene between straining or pushing on and off and pushing constantly. My own vet would want to see abitch thathad been straining orpushing continually for more than 15 mins, regardless of whether a pup was out.

> My own vet would want to see abitch thathad been straining orpushing continually for more than 15 mins, regardless of whether a pup was out.

I think your vet would also take into consideration, the experience of the person on the other end of the phone.

Anyway,
Genesis how's that lovely litter of yours coming along?

Absolutely lovely. She is a very good mother. Just been to the butchers to cook her something special to mix in with her dried dog feed just to give her a good kick start. Although she did eat all the placenta's last night but not loose.

Just to make everybody clear becuase perhaps I havent she wasnt straining she was having normal contractions. Just like at the very begining when she started to contract at 4pm and then went on to give birth starting at 5pm to 3 very healthy boys before a still born. And at the end was doing nothing different to when she started it just wasnt meant to be. And the ver said probably a few more might not have survived if we hadnt of intervened and helped get some of the others breathing.

But I thank you all for everybody that has given me nice and positive comments. Feeling a bit better now that I have had something to eat as I didnt eat all day yesterday and have just managed to get something now with Jade.

Let it go over your head.... you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Sorry to hear of what happened and now the joy mixed in with the sorrow.
Hope your bitch continues to do well with your lovely new litter and the hurt you feel (added to by insensitive comments) will soon go away.
All the best to you, it makes me realise just how lucky we were when I read threads on here.

I think your vet would also take into consideration, the experience of the person on the other end of the phone.

They may well do, but the emergency vet I spoke to didn't have any clue about my experience and said the same. My mentors breeder also says the same to her, and she has 30 years experience.

I think it is important to mention these things, as this forum is open for public viewing, and it is quite possible a layperson could see it and think a bitch straining or pushing for an hour is perfectly normal and acceptable.

my bitch had 2 --3 hour gaps with no pups- no straining either and then a normal pup. she didnt strain at all in the 3 hours and the vet said walk her round which did the trick. i was simply saying that if a bitch strained down (bearing down) for an hour with no pup i would think she was obstructed. i am also a midwife although i realise humans are different

My own vet would want to see abitch thathad been straining orpushing continually for more than 15 mins

Jackson being honest I think a vet that wanted to see a dog after 15 mins pushing to me would be signs of an inexpereinced vet.  Most breeds take a period of at least 15 mins of pushing and straining.

Most people can tell when I bitch is in trouble. I think even the inexperienced first timers can tell when it becomes an emergency.  I certainly wouldn't like real troubled pushing to go on for any length of time BUT they do have a long way to come and they do have to pass the pups.  

I would say 11 puppies for any breed is a reasonably large litter so 25% is quite common.  11 would also be a lot more work for the bitch.  If it is a large breed you may be glad of the reduced number.

Good Luck. Hope there is something there promising for you..

Sorry, I had meant to say unproductive pushing. Certainly no inexperienced vet. Both in their 50's plus, and both breed dogs, one the same breed as me.

Maybe it relates to my bred only? My bitch certainly didn't have any periods of pushing for more than 10 minutes, usually a lot less than that. They are known to be easy whelpers.

Hi, it's me again the one who started this post. Now just lost another pup during the night, a boy.

Have been getting up in the night. 1.30pm, 3.30pm & 5.30pm and taking it in turns with my husband to just come down and check on them and Mum. came down this morning at 4.30pm to find one dead boy pup. only just dead still warm & floppy, must have only just missed him, his tongue was not white like a couple of the stillborns but his mouth was cold inside but outside body temp warm to touch and floppy. We are assuming that it has got stuck underneath her as although her box is plenty large enough 4ft by 3ft with pig rails round she sometimes goes to lay down and there is one under her, she doesnt jump straight out the way or get up, I donk know weather she expects it to crawl out from underneath her to get out the way or what but we have noticed this during the day. We work from home so we are always here & our office is just of the kitchen and her whelping box is no more than 3 meters away and I can just look to my right and see her in the box so we are straight there to see whats going off if there are any little cries to see what's up. But of course you think you can go to bed and it's OK as long as you get up a few times to check things are OK. We are assunimg that it has got stuck somehow and died as we are happy with all the pups all looking very helathy fed & content.

I'm going to phone the vets when they open as she ate all the placentas and now they are all going through her. we came down to an awful mess in the kitchen yesterday morning and she was going out in the garden during the day a lot becuase she felt the need and has diahorea. we wondered if this is the reason why she is not laying out flat exposing both sides. She lays down but sits up most of the time so not exposing both sides like she not relaxed. Could this be to do with her stomach and having diahorea.

The reason why she ate all the placentas was becuase I couldnt get them off her she was averisheous (if thats how you spell it) with them I couldnt get to them and to be honest I was more bothered about making sure the bag was off the pups face and clearing its air way & mouth before then next to prioritise was to make sure I clamped the umbilical cord with my thumb and finger next to the pups body as there were a few bleeds and I didnt like how close she was getting to the body of the pup. So taking the afterbirth away was not the most important job to do at that time. But now I am paying the price becuase she has got an off stomach and is not very happy.

I am going to get a camp bed from my sisters and take to sleeping in the kitchen by the box till I feel they are old enough for this not to happen. How long or how old do you think they should be before I can stop camping in the kitchen when they are big enough to not be getting stuck under her. They are golden Retrievers.

I don't go back to bed from a week BEFORE pups are due until the pups are 3-4 weeks old.  I would never sleep if I did.

I'm sorry to hear you've lost another pup, sadly these things do happen and very quickly if you're not watching them.  We lost a pup a few years ago, I only saw my mum to the door and by the time I got back, my girl had sat on one of her pups :(

I would definitely get that camp bed and sleep close by.

We also have a web cam on order which is suppose to be coming Sat or Mon. We had that on order anyway before this so that we could watch them and hear them during the night from the laptop at the side of our bed. Do you think that would be safer enough?

take your office and bed into your whelping room.  I always do, okay its cramped but you see or hear trouble imediatley when your girl may be too tired or inexperienced to know what is going on.  Bitches also tend to scuff up the nest box when they get out and inadvetantly burry puppies returning to lie on them and if not suffocate them then damage them.  It all comes with experience hers and yours, the next litter in a couple of years will be easier on both of you. For now stick to your girl like glue absolutely no leaving her until they are 2 weeks old.  I risk sleeping next door by three weeks so I can still hear them.  Good luck with your little ones the time will fly by

Web cams are ok but in the early weeks you really do need to be very close by, web cams you can't see everything

Sorry to hear your sad news. We took it in turns sleeping next to box till approx 3 weeks. By that time eyes were well open and pups movement alot more co ordinated. They were able to squeak to if mum did sit on one which made her move.

I have the same breed as you, and I would say your whelping box is not big enough, which is why your bitch isn't laying down flat and therefore not exposing both sets of teats at once. Our box is 4ft by 4ft,and go be honest, I wish we had made it bigger.

It is best not to leave the pups at all if you can help it. A friend of a friend lost a pup (different breed) while she went to make a coffee in another room! Very unlucky, I am sure, but it just shows how quickly things can happen.

I slept next to the whelping box for 3 weeks, (Pups were in conservatory) then move donot the sofa in the living room (next room) for the next 3 weks, until Mum didn't want to feed them at night anymore, an dthen she cam upstais to sleep with me. I was very lucky in that Mum would wake me up if she needed to get into the box and the pups were in her way, so no real danger of her crushing or suffocating one. I still slept with one eye open though!

I wouldn't worry about her having the runs from eating the placentas. It is natures way of making it easy for them to go to toilet after having given birth. As ong as it doesn't persist for too many days, she'll be fine. The placentas are good for them.

Good luck with your pups.

i sleep next to bitch until eyes open and count pups everytime she jumps in (im a light sleeper and kept on night light) diarrhoea is normal up to a week after and if she wont lay down its prob after pains, again normal

I was thinking about this if I wean them as soon as I can. when can Mum stop feeding them at night? What age can I give them a good feed last thing at night say midnight and then they can wait till even just 6am in the morning and we take Mum upstairs becuase they really are safer to some degree by themselves. I know when they start getting a bit more active I will have to shut up the door entry so that it is high all round the box and I'm still going to be in danger becuase she is going to actually probably give a little jump to get in thier and could land on one. Or the alternative becuase I do have a tiled floor in the kitchen so it just cleans up is to leave them to roam free round the kitchen floor when they are about 3 weeks? so there is no jumping to get to them if she want to feed them and no small whelping box now they have grown a lot bigger. And put a good couple of vet beds down on the floor in the kitchen. I really carnt think of anywhere that they could crawl between to get themselves in trouble. Or section a bigger bit of the kitchen off as I do have a really good area that I could do this in.

It's really up to Mum and pups when they wean off her milk, but you can start feeding them solids from about 3 weeks. It is cruel to stop Mum having access to them before they or she is ready. Once they ar ebiiger and thei eyes are open (2-3 weeks) the risk to the pups from Mum is very small, but they are like pirahnas at her, so she needs ot be able to get away from them.

From about 3 weeks they will be mouch more active, and will need a puppy pen, either on it's own, or with the whelping box for their bed in it. I kept the whelping box until about 4 weeks, then replaced it with a crate as their bed, to give them more room in the puppy pen, which was about 10ft x 10ft. I also had a large puppy pen in the garden for them, and allowdd them free but supervised run of the lounge/dining room at least once a day, in 'batches' of two or three at first, then singly later on so they got used to being alone and without Mum.

Because Mum couldn't get in and out of the puppy pen herself easily (she could jump over, but i didn't want her to have to) I made myself available as her 'personal assistant' and let her in and out of the puppy pen as her or the puppies wished.