Hello

I'm new to this forum but have often used it as a reference in the past!

I'm hoping that people can give me their honest opinions.

I have 3 smoothcoat chihuahua bitches, two of which are ex show dogs (I inherited them in a way, they are 5 and almost 3 years old)  They both had realtively successful show careers, albeit short.  I decided that I wanted to get into showing some time ago, unfortunately, my two decided that they'd had enough and preferred the slower paced life.

I recently bred from both bitches with the intention of producing and keeping two show quality pups.  I sought advice from a reputable breeder and used a fantastic stud dog on both.  At first I was only going to breed from the one bitch, but I was advised that where possible it is a good idea to mate two at a time so if any bad situation should arise, there would be a surrogate.  There would have been no way I would have considered it otherwise!  I know that bitch had been bred before and produced 3 pups, only one of which made it.  In essence, I admit, I hedged my bet.

Anyway, things went extremely well, better than we considered and we had 6 pups (2 and 4)  I have my two stunning pups and the stud dog owner has taken two and the other two have gone to very pleased family members.

Throughut the process, I was rather infuriated as to non doggy peoples' attitudes.  They seemed to think that this was a perfect litle cash cow.  I can safely say that we are in the red after this little venture, but I wouldn't have done it differently.  I know some chihuahuas are being sold for ridiculous prices, but, what in experienced peoples views is a reasonable price to sell a KC reg, good pedigree chihuahua puppy?

Please don't interpret this as an advert, I can assure you its not, all of my puppies (apart from  my wee gems) are away and I didn't ever intend to sell them.

Thanks very much for reading this and I value any opinion or advice or if anybody else has experienced the same attitude!

Hi Sizzle. I'm new to this forum myself. I had the same experience a few months ago. I was talking to a friend of mine who needed to come up with some money for her daughter's schooling. Her comment was, "I figured out a way to make some quick money. I'll just get a couple of dogs and breed them. Then I can sell the pups and walla!" I was so angry. I had to compose myself as to not start screaming at her. Then I tried to point out to her about what it costs to properly care for a dog (food, shots, heartworm meds, etc) I also told her that "backyard breeding" is totally irresponsible wether the dogs are registered or not. I also pointed out the possibility of things not going as planned and having to do a c-section or at the least, incurring a lot of vet bills.

If you want an honest opinion, it's fair to say that I don't beat about the bush!  I have paid £1,500 for Chihuahua Long Coats.  I have also paid just under the £1,000 mark (not for many though.)  I have charged £550 for a pet, and £1,500 for a super bitch pup.  I took out a £15,000 bank loan to have a whelping room built onto my kitchen, so my Chi girls could whelp and nurse their pups without feeling threatened by the rest of the gang.  My Chi's are not fashion accessories, they play in the compost heap with Collies, and are allowed to be dogs, but I do realise that they don't want the big dogs around when they have just given birth.  The big dogs sleep in the kitchen.

I have had people enquire about the cost of a puppy, and when told, they said "I don't begrudge you your profits" - I was fit to spit!  Yes I have had that attitude, and I know I shouldn't let it get to me, but it does.  People with large breeds will look at me as if I am in it for the money, mentioning the £1,000 plus per pup.  I am often tempted to mention their pups at £500 apiece with 12 in the litter.  Work it out, it's not rocket science.  My breed has 1-3 pups as an average.  And no expense is spared in the care of my bitch both during and after pregnancy.

I do my utmost to breed ethically.  In the last 12 months I have had 4 c-sections.  2 were during the day at £648 each, and the 2 out of hours cost £904 and £1,086 and once the pups had been weaned, there was the cost of spaying each girl.  No, I won't have another c-section out of a bitch when I have been told that she is too narrow inside.  I also won't keep a bitch out of a c-section - she will still have her mothers genes.  One of my girls self whelped in January.  I kept the litter, because I want to breed from self whelping lines.  Obviously cost the same to rear the litter and care for mum, but no profit there.  The girl that needed the c-section this year has now been spayed.  I sold her pups for pet, used some money towards the credit card that pays the vet bills, and some off the bank loan.  Put some by towards the cost of a self whelper. 

On a brighter note,,,  I had a bitch visit my boy last year, and I was very impressed when I saw photographs of the pups at 8 months old.  When I got a phone call asking if he could be used again, I said that I wouldn't take a stud fee, but would like to buy a pup from the litter, and stated that I was willing to pay the going rate.  I had handled the bitch, I knew she had a good wide pelvis, and she had 2 very easy whelpings.  This is my aim, normal easy whelpings.  I was given pick of litter - only 2 pups, and the bitch was a really good build for a brood - I was over the moon.  And the bonus?  I collected my bitch yesterday, but when I saw the tiny boy, I almost dribbled!!!!  His potential shouted at me, and I would have kicked myself if I had left him there.  I didn't have the money on me, but fortunately I am pretty trustworthy, and I'm hardly going to disappear without paying when I want to show him! 

So, yes I do get that attitude, and no I haven't been able to retire, and until the magic fairy pays the mortgage, I suppose I will have to continue working.  I don't have a plasma TV, my car is a 1998 model, and I've never been abroad in my life.  But hell, I has my dogs, so who cares!

> do my utmost to breed ethically

?????

But you do breed designer crossbreeds don't you (Chorkies) whether by "accident"or design it isn't "ethical breeding"by any stretch of the imagination :-(

Thanks, its nice to know its not just me being targeted!  Both of mine were c-sections within 4 days of each other.  My older bitch that had the 4 pups is now signed up to be spayed, she's done way more than her bit and its for the best.  So that's another cost factored in, not to mention the food and the vaccinations for everybody and all the bits and bobs we had to buy for the whole thing - but don't get me wrong - I don't grudge it  - just folks attitudes!  I'm undecided as to my other girl.  She had 2 large pups and wouldn't have delivered safely at all.  They were absloute beauties though so I'll dwell on that a bit longer - again any advice appreciated!  Right now I'm focusing on training up the litte critters!  Thanks for all the responses!

> But you do breed designer crossbreeds don't you

No MADAM, I don't breed designer crossbreeds, and I don't sell to the designer fraternity.  I don't sell puppies to anyone under 40 anyway.  And I don't even have to give a reason, it's my decision, and it's my prerogative to set whatever criteria I so wish.  But my dogs wouldn't be suited to being carried around while their muscles wasted, they are used to active lives.

Since breeding my first litter over 30 years ago, I have had 2 accidents.  Even my vet told me that it was no point giving the injection, as a bitch wouldn't be fertile that late in a season.  I am not the first, and neither will I be the last person to have this happen.  It happens, deal with it.

However, the topic was not what I bred, the OP was asking opinions from people who bred Chihuahuas.  I gave her a totally open and frank answer.  That you decided to see it as another opportunity to be snide and spiteful, is nothing new quite frankly, and I have always felt sorry for newcomers when you've been raring to dictate and lay down the law according to MM.  It's a pity that several have your knack for being this way.  It's why newbies often get scared off.  Last time you got snotty with me, I ignored it, because I had neither asked for, or wanted your opinion.  And, unlike some people who don't come back to CD, it is not important to me what you think of me.  Honestly, I don't give a tinker's cuss.

So, I have accidentally bred a few pets from parents with no heart, eye, or patella problems.  It won't cause the next world war, and getting your knickers in a twist won't undo what has already happened. 

>I don't sell puppies to anyone under 40 anyway.

Why?

I'm half your min age and you wouldn't sell me a pup?  Why? 

I don't know why some posters have to lash out personally when someone says something they don't like or it hits a nerve. So in MM's defence:

I nearly choked when I saw the website " Chorkies"  I can understand MM comments, I personally don't know any ethical breeders that brag about mistakes nor create a name for what is fundamentally a none pedigree cross. I think it is irresponsible to have that on a website. People will see it and follow suit. For a breed that you claim to love I don't think it is the smartest way to protect it personally.  Regardless what your vet said, an experienced breeder would know that a bitch can take right up to day 20-21. 

You said "However, the topic was not what I bred"  no but you seem to give this whole post about how hard up you are and how you have barely made ends meet from all litters you have had.

As the the £15K extension, that is entirely up to the individual. Someone spending kind of money on a whelping room when they mention that they only have a 10 year old seems odd to me. You must have spent that money for a reason.  Most successful breeders, exhibitors manage quite well with a corner of a bedroom for the one , maybe two litters maximum a year.

From what you have said in your first post you have had a min of 5 litters this year. 4 sections and 1 self whelp.   Most would find it hard to believe it has left you broke. 

I think MM was merely pointing out what she believed to be obvious things you don't see often being bragged about my ethical breed lovers,  MM saying this probably doesn't justify the lashing out " hit a nerve type comments;

"No MADAM" , "snide and spiteful", "It's a pity that several have your knack for being this way","I don't give a tinker's cuss."... none contribute to a constructive post.

As for;

I have always felt sorry for newcomers when you've been raring to dictate and lay down the law according to MM.  It's a pity that several have your knack for being this way.  It's why newbies often get scared off.

In my experience of this board the ones who grumble about posts or never come back are those that are told the things they don't want to hear.

Sizzle,

Being 100% honest I don't see the point in these type of questions. If you are setting out to be a successful exhibitor , breeder who really cares what others sell their pups for.

Take advise from decent people through your breed club , you should be hopefully covering your costs but not charging prices that are silly and that do nothing for your breed. High priced breeds only attract unethical breeders looking to make a living out of them.

The two puppies you have kept good on you, get yourself in the ring work hard and in no time people will recognise your intentions are honourable to the breed. They will extend a hand.

I have had people enquire about the cost of a puppy, and when told, they said "I don't begrudge you your profits" - I was fit to spit!  Yes I have had that attitude, and I know I shouldn't let it get to me, but it does.  People with large breeds will look at me as if I am in it for the money, mentioning the £1,000 plus per pup.  I am often tempted to mention their pups at £500 apiece with 12 in the litter.

My breed has neither of your senarios thankfully, it has a hard enough time.   It isn't a breed that attracts this very over the top silly prices YET 4 is the average litter. Sections are sometimes a factor. 

Most of the posts seems to go back to the same thing ££££££££££  so what.  My moto is dont' spend what you can't afford and don't spend on the hope of money coming in.

Forgot to add you mention new comers being put off,  I know loads that have recently been put off participating by the influx of the pet money orientated breeders appearing on here and additionally being put off by those jumping to defend them.

Gosh I only have 4 or 5 in my breed and charge nearly half what you are charging and my breeds a rare breed.

We all know where these stupid prices are coming from for Chi's and it's nothing to do about caring for the breed, it's about making a fast buck on all these "supposed celebs" having the breed.

Surely there is an economic arguement here when it comes to litter size and risk.  I.e  a mid sized dog costing £400 - £600 from a litter of 5 or 6 in comparison to a toy breed having 2-3 pups selling for around £800 - £1000.  Factor in the heavily increased risk of a c-section.  Nobody makes a living out of this, and for every successful litter, you might have a disastrous litter, where nothing goes right.  If everyone was losing money continuosly from every litter they bred, I can't imagine they would be as enthused to breed in the future.  I'm not in any hurry to breed again, but thats because I luckily got what I wanted from this one, and not because of the expense.  I also think that if I did have any puppies to home in the future, it would be such a leap of faith placing them with new owners and I know I'm nowhere near ready to do this.

I'm not money orientated, I do do it for a love of the breed, and from my limited experience, this is not a fantastic business model to make money quick - if you walked into your bank with dog breeding as a business plan - I'm sure you would be laughed out!  I bred to get my pups, and I'm going to work hard with them.  I'm a bit disheartened that people seem more readily willing to criticise toy breed owners who breed their dogs than they are for mid -large breeds.  Every breed has its merits and thats why there are so many popular breeds of dogs.  Its unfortunate that toy dogs are popular with celebrities, it gives them and their owners a bad name - my founding three wouldn't ever sit in a handbag and I certainly wouldn't do that to them.  They chase cats (well, try) they love a long ramble up the hills where we live, they swim at the beach and do everything a normal dog does, just on a smaller scale.

I'm starting out, and I'm looking forward!  Thanks for all contributions.

I've got a toy breed which is very popular, I have turned down many many stud enquiries from pet & show people to use my dogs much as I would love a puppy from them, I know what is behind the dogs & would not wish to pass that on to any other dog or their owners.

Money should not even come into play when breeding dogs, except that you need a"emergency"fund in case of things like c sections etc, it shouldn't be factored in to the price of a puppy. I cringe when people tell me that you have to pay over £1000 for a puppy because the mother had to have a C section because she couldn't have the puppies naturally because she wasn't big enough, not constructed properly etc.

My youngest two dogs' mother(these are not a toy breed) had to have a C section because a puppy got stuck the first time & also for her second & final litter, because her labour was not progressing correctly. I will be discussing this with my vet(who is knowledgeable about whelping bitches)before I even think seriously about mating her. She is both physically, mentally & genetically healthy(hips & clinical eye tests yet to be done)but if she did have to have a C section for her first litter I would have her spayed at the same time.

Ethically breeding dogs is not about money, but improving the breed by producing healthy puppies"fit for purpose"

We recently sold a really nice Pom for £550.00 and she was the only one to make it out of a litter of 3.  Sorry I just feel that the owners of toy breeds are getting greedy.  Yes it does cost us more to have our litters, but there again stud fees for Pom's etc. are usually a lot less than some of the other breeds so it counters it out in a way.  Also you don't need to feed them as much etc, etc.

Everyone makes their own choices in life whether you are a backyard breeder or not no one can actually say who is right or who is wrong, there are many times i have posted on this forum and sometimes got the answers it didn't like, but that is the point.  I don't know who sets these silly prices but obviously people are prepared to pay for it.  when my pups go they are injected and microchiped have their own collar and lead, food bowls, food for at least 2 weeks and a nice new bed which they sleep in a week before they go, But that is my choice mine are only a small breed and again small litters and to be honest don't think I've ever made a profit, with lost pups, vet fees, from the begining of pregnancy till the end of pups going but then again that is my choice but I am classed as a backyard breeder as I don't show, but all my animals are tested for what they need.  But it doesn't make me wrong in what i am doing.

Linda

crikey. Jeansw ..I woudlnt like to have an argument with YOU up a dark alley! My what a temper you have :-)

nobody spend £15,000 for a whelping room unless they intend to make money
far too many people are getting on the breeding band wagon and its mostly about money
the prices toy breeds are going for is insane
i show a toy breed and most breeders of my breed are endorsing all puppys to stop the puppies becoming breeding machines
its about time the KC got its act together and started a proper licence scheme for genuine breeders who want to improve on their breed and have a genuine interest in a breed, and stop these so called pet breeders breeding
just look at the internet puppy selling sites, thousand of thousands of puppies for sale and most are from pet people wanting to make a quick buck
and look at the so called designer dogs, mostly toy breeds crossed and at stupid prices because joe public are so stupid and think they are getting a rare breed
i was in a gundog breed for 17 years and had one litter, maybe one day i may have a litter but i will be vetting and endorsing any pups
and having worked in rescue i have seen the result of these all this over breeding

LOLOL I haven't been called madam for many years !! ;-)

As for spending £15,000 on an extension just to whelp & raise puppies, what's wrong with the bedroom or dining room ?

i saw a litter of so called designer cavadoodle pups in 'rare' colours started at £900 each then 800 then 700 now the last pup back up to 800, if that isnt raking in profit i dont know what

> Surely there is an economic arguement here when it comes to litter size and risk.  I.e  a mid sized dog costing £400 - £600 from a litter of 5 or 6 in comparison to a toy breed having 2-3 pups selling for around £800 - £1000. 

Yes, bigger breed puppies will eat a helluva a lot more from the weaning process on than small breed puppies do, at their peak my pups eat over 15kg of puppy complete a week as well as the added milk & cereals, meat etc.   Also the dam will require a lot more food during pregnancy too. 

I have a friend who has Cockers and from her last litter she has no pups at all due to various problems & an out of hours bill for a Caesarian, she could only ask £400/£450 per pup so how toy breeders justify the £1000+ price is beyond me.   Every breed has it's potential whelping problems.

> Since breeding my first litter over 30 years ago, I have had 2 accidents.  Even my vet told me that it was no point giving the injection, as a bitch wouldn't be fertile that late in a season.  I am not the first, and neither will I be the last person to have this happen.  It happens, deal with it.
>
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If my vet had told me that after my 9 month old pup got a hold of my bitch, I would've been moving vets to get a vet that provided ME with a service I wanted them to provide me not an opinion.   Thankfully mine didn't and the mismating injection stopped an unplanned litter.