Have had golden retrievers for 35 years. always had at least 2 for pure love and enjoyment of the breed and the dog. Have worked them when I have had the time but I work unsociable hours at the weekend (photography) Had 2 litters in the 80's but generally dont breed but buy a dog in from another breeder but my bitch this time is just exceptional and I carnt guarantee this again unless I get one from her. Have choosen a magnificent stud dog who is very much up & coming with his working ability only 2 years old  & he has won quite a bit already. I am very proud of him and very chuft that my new pup will be related to him.

OK crofty, calm down, i was only asking :-)
So are you new to breeding then?

> Breeding at a year old would be less common was the point

But not necessarily reduce them to a blighted wreck :-)  It's down to the arrangement of their society again though isn't it.  The whole set up of breeding within a wild pack and the breeding of pet animals, fully protected and supported with nutrition, in the home is rather different.

crofty, just wondered if your breeder had expected the seasons to be later, making her between 12 and 18mths (say) rather than the second season coming at 12 mths? Seems the club recomends no litters before 16 mths. I can see you are only asking,  thats what CD is all about :) :) :)

Please note, the club recommends 2 1/2 years

I have replied why did you want to know.

Thank you Isabel,

You are too correct to reduce the risk of MVD they recommend 2 and a half, however they also contridict themselves by quoting 16 months for the age of whelping.

Don't think anyone on this thread has said they are thinking of breeding at 12 months, have they; perhaps I have missed something.

Cavalier people seem to have said what I thought, about the 3rd season providing the health tests are done and satisfactory, so who is saying to breed at 12 months is ok, no one on here.

>they also contridict themselves by quoting 16 months for the age of whelping

Yes, they do.  I don't know if it was for procedural ease that they added it as an appendix or whether they are saying this is not a code that has to be adhered to as a member but is only a recommendation.  They state it quite clearly though, this is what to do if you want to reduce the incidences of MVD, this is what we recommend.  So, you ask yourself, do you? :-)

> if you are seriously interesting in breeding I would recommend you start with showing

Isabel
I would think it highly unlikely that a puppy purchased from a breeder, who recommends breeding from one of her bitches at 12 months and with no apparent mention of health testing,will be capable of winning in the highly competitive Cavalier ring. With classes of 25-35 in Minor puppy bitch one would have to have a pretty lucky purchase indeed and few people would persist with it  . Most successful exibitors/breeders are club members and agree to abide by their code of ethics which includes details on age and health testing.

Crofty:
Hello and welcome to CD. It is understandable that you would like to breed from your cavalier but the breed is in a bit of crisis at the moment with much publicity about their health problems. It has already been mention here about Mitral valve disease,hereditary eye conditions and the latest 'hot potato' Syryingomyelia (a very nasty neurological disease). Now not only are breeders trying to stamp these things out but the general public are becoming much more aware of them too and are asking for puppies from health tested parents.

If a puppy you produce contracts one of these conditions and you are seen to have done nothing to have prevented them, then under the sale of goods act, you could have a civil action taken against you in court. This is happening much more often.

If your existing bitch came with no certificates from her own parents health tests then you may be stirring up a very murky pool indeed.
The one thing that separates respected, ethical dog breeders from all others is the length they will go to to avoid  knowingly bringing into this world puppies at an unacceptable risk of heriditary disease.  

Since you are setting out in the wish to breed dogs and are making a good start by asking lots of questions, then it would seem that you want to make the best start you can. If you don't it will only come back to haunt you later...... one way or another.
Good luck.

The conflict between the code of ethics and the latest recommendations is that ......the latest information has been suggested to breeders for the good of the breed. BUT as the latest test involves a rather expensive MRI scan they still need to keep the bare minimum in place for those who are just prepared to do just that...... the bare minimum.

> Isabel
> I would think it highly unlikely that a puppy purchased from a breeder, who recommends breeding from one of her bitches at 12 months and with no apparent mention of health testing,will be capable of winning in the highly competitive Cavalier ring.

I agree, and like you suspect that very strongly from the history we have been given, but we don't know and this is one way to find out.  It also puts you in contact with much more suitable breeders and many people have moved from there into getting something much more hopefull.

Oviously no Cavalier person you have spoken to or Minnie Mouse is bothering with the veterinary experts advice re breeding cavaliers nor the advice of the breed clubs.

The current guidelines are no dog or bitch to be bred from before they are 2 1/2 years of age & the older the stud with a clear heart the better

Anyone who claims that Syringomyelia is not a problem in Cavaliers & merrily goes ahead breeding from under aged dogs & bitches is a fool & does have the welfare of the breed in their heart, only £ signs for the puppies. I had three cavaliers, 1 we know has SM through his MRI scan, one was PTS recently as the symptoms of SM became so bad he had no quality of life & my 3rd on has had several extremely painful SM episodes-they are all closely related & one's father was under 18 months when he was used @ stud, he was PTS with SM before his 3rd birthday

The Cavalier Club have lots of information regarding the health tests that must be done & also lots of recent papers on the research & breeding protocol.. Those of you breeding or intending to breed Cavaliers would do well to visit the club site & print of & read in detail what you may be ignoring by breeding from dogs under 2 1/2 years of age

> The conflict between the code of ethics and the latest recommendations is that ......the latest information has been suggested to breeders for the good of the breed. BUT as the latest test involves a rather expensive MRI scan they still need to keep the bare minimum in place for those who are just prepared to do just that...... the bare minimum.

The tests are being done at a subsised rate & are not that expensive around the £200 mark & as most people sell their for far in excess of this & it is a one off scan so lessens the effect on their profits from subsequent litters

> The tests are being done at a subsised rate & are not that expensive around the £200 mark

I am well aware of that fact having had my own dogs tested ( privately ) but if one buys a pet cavalier and the breeder who sold you it is advising mating it at 12 months, then do you really think it productive to tell people that they can't breed from their dog unless they do all the recommended tests? Who's going to police it? Wouldn't it be better to encourage potential breeders down the right path rather than barring the way and driving them to the 'pet-only' market.
When I turn down a stud I know that most pet cavalier breeders wont give a damn that some wacky woman spends thousands on MRI scans and wont let them use her dog.... there are hundereds of other studs out there. If they were encouraged to at least get their hearts and eyes done by specialsts then it would be achieving something surely?
I've never had a case of SM nor have any of my close friends dogs but I know of loads who have MVD. You are extremley unlucky indeed to have 100% of your cavaliers suffer from this condition but would be wary of saying that it quite so prevalent in the breed as a whole.
Sarah Blott's latest findings state "Syringomyelia is believed to be a complex disease, where the disease phenotype results from the effects of several genes plus environmental influences"
"Their database contains clinical observations for SM and CM on around 1,400 dogs and MRI scan results for around 700 of these dogs."
Probably 12,000 cavaliers have been bred and registered with the KC in the last year ( many more unregistered) and the statistics will include dogs up to say 10 years old so potentially over 100,000 cavaliers in that time... it is still quite a low proportion relative to the incidence of heart murmur.

As I said my breeder had said the second season, which is just after her first birthday.  I have no reason at all to rush her! So waiting 6 months a year is not a problem!


It is obvious you are not intending to breed just yet, (if you do) and are miffed by the 2nd season for breeding.  What you need to realise is that many bitches will have their first season anywhere between 6-12 months of age.

(Toy dogs generally come in at 6 months and their second is 12 months being toys their bones are more supple to breed at 12 months than later on, which is why the KC initally have the 12 month rule there.)

Cav's...... your girl has come in at 6 months, but perhaps your breeder did not cater for that, perhaps she is expecting the 1st and 2nd season to be later?

Personally for a Cav 12 months would be too young for me, they are still puppylike at that age, no matter what the rulings are I like a bitch to be mature, and that does vary a lot from breed to breed. :-)

As for wolves yes the younger bitches in the wild would not be used to breed from, the Alpha would be the only female to be mated, she would make sure all knew their pecking orders, however when food and habitat is very good the Alpha does allows other females to be mated with as all pups would survive, so even in the wild food, weather and habitat will dictate changes, and mating behaviour which is why I am not a supporter of the talk of allowing the wolf back into Scotland as they would thrive with plentiful food and good weather and packs and sub packs would soon become very large indeed.

>I've never had a case of SM nor have any of my close friends dogs but I know of loads who have MVD. You are extremley unlucky indeed to have 100% of your cavaliers suffer from this condition but would be wary of saying that it quite so prevalent in the breed as a whole.

You cannot state that unless all your dogs have been MRI scanned & all the puppies you have ever bred have been MRI scanned. The same goes for all your friends dogs & their offspring. My boy who has been scanned is asymptomatic & has no symptoms at all, he carries some of the most popular bloodlines in the UK.

I do know exactly what Sarah has written my boys were amougst those who donated blood & Lou was only scanned at the request of his father's breeder(not his breeder please note, they sold his brother as a stud dog when they got rid of all their dogs but two oldies & have now bought in two bitches & have used Lou's brother(unscanned)on one of them)

As for it not being widespread, I would like to bet most vet's wouldn't even know what the symptoms are let alone diagnose a case correctly. I'm lucky in that my vet was a student under Geoff Syrett & has probably referred more Cavaliers for an MRI scan for SM then any other vet in this area. I know of at least two dogs from the same litter bred by a breeder who breeds for the showring & who doesn't scan, who both had SM yet it was misdiagnosed by their GP vet(they both went to the same vet as their dogs breeders)as in one case a a slipped disc(MRI scan showed SM) & the other a fused spine(again MRI scan showed SM)Their breeder still claims that they have never had a case of SM !!! I know my vet has seen more than a dozen dogs with SM symptoms who have been MRI scanned & had it confirmed in the last year alone. It organized for Geoff to come over & give a seminar for all the vets in the area-the take up was low, only two veterinary groups attended & one of them was our vets. The two most expensive vets never even replied & one of these had misdiagnosed a case of SM & the others replied with the comment they did not need an awareness seminar as they were fully aware of SM(three of the groups had in the ast misdiagnosed SM cases) The misdiagnosed dogs have now been taken on by my vets & they liase with Geoff regarding management.

One sad thing about my two remaining dogs both now over 7(the eldest is 8 in Sept)is that they both have clear hearts  So sad as they cannot be considered for use @ stud

IMHO if you don't scan all the dogs you produce or breed from then you cannot state that you do not have any cases of SM in your lines-why did you have your own dogs scanned privately ?

>As for wolves yes the younger bitches in the wild would not be used to breed from, the Alpha would be the only female to be mated, she would make sure all knew their pecking orders, however when food and habitat is very good the Alpha does allows other females to be mated with as all pups would survive, so even in the wild food, weather and habitat will dictate changes, and mating behaviour which is why I am not a supporter of the talk of allowing the wolf back into Scotland as they would thrive with plentiful food and good weather and packs and sub packs would soon become very large indeed.

As offspring begin to mature, they disperse from the pack as young as 9 months of age (Fritts and Mech 1981; Messier 1985; Mech 1987; Fuller 1989; Gese and Mech 1991). Most disperse when 1-2 years old, and few remain beyond 3 years (Mech et al. 1998). Thus, young members constitute a temporary portion of most packs, and the only long-term members are the breeding pair. In
contrast, captive packs often include members forced to remain together for many years (Rabb et al. 1967; Zimen 1982; Fentress et al. 1987).

The one use we may still want to reserve for "alpha" is in the relatively few large wolf packs comprised of multiple litters. Although the genetic relationships of the mothers in such packs remain unknown, probably the mothers include the original matriarch and one or more daughters, and the fathers are probably the patriarch and unrelated adoptees (Mech et al. 1998).

Multiple births are very very unusual in the "normal"sized wolf packs, because the other possible"breeder"have already left the pack to breed elsewhere

Minniemouse I'm afraid I must disagree. Crofty you should absolutely NOT breed from your girl unless she is 2.5 years old, has clear heart and eye certificate, with the heart preferably listened to by a cardiologist and not just your usual vet, and also has been MRI scanned for SM - if she is an 'A' dog (no malformation) she is ok to breed from, if she is a 'D' (malformation but no symptoms) she must ONLY be bred to a type 'A' dog. I would also strongly recommend you get her out at the shows, even if just the open shows, as it's by far the easiest way to determine if she is physically of a type good enough to breed from. She should also have the correct friendly, bold and fearless temperament - there are FAR to many Cavaliers around who are either creepy and nervous, or dog aggressive, and I don't just mean a bit of un-neutered male testosterone grumbling. :-(

> why did you have your own dogs scanned privately

Because I can.

So you do not share the results with Claire Rusbridge & others trying to research & find the causes of SM ?  How very supportive of the breed. You must be one of the few breeders who scan as normal practice.

I'm not very comfortable with your insistence that this thread be hijacked for the purposes of jumping on a soap box and rattling your sabre.
The subsidised MRI scheme is just that - subsidised and since I neither need the incentive nor the discount I don't feel the need to take it up (what is, of course, funded from charitable donations.)
Ms Rusbridge is aware of my scan results and has incorporated them into her data. I along, with others, are doing our best for our dogs with out ramming it down other's throats. I have just used a champion dog on one of my scanned bitches and was supplied with his clear certificate, his mothers and his sisters. None of these are published.
The OP is probably long gone now and may have dismissed any advice given here as domineering ranting.
As far as I'm aware in Britain in 2008 there is still some free choice.
Please remember none of my dogs have any symptoms of SM and now that they are scanned have any features of it either. Yet I still scanned them at my expense so why do you think it warrants a comment like ........> How very supportive of the breed  ....You think that helps?

The published MRI list contains that fact alone... that they were scanned and until a score is given I see no point in having such a list.

Going back to the post, I have cavs and i think 12 months is fair to young. Before i started breeding i was advised by my breeder to wait until the 3rd season or once the bitch is over 2 1/2 years. I have just had my first litter and feel this was an ideal time for my bitch. I have 2 younger bitches of 2 years and 1 years. the youngest was horrified when all the little puppies were running around her and to me proved that she is still a puppy herself. The 2 year was more eager to 'help' with motherhood. All my litter were endorsed and this will not be lifted until the new owners have shown me clear heart and eye certificates and that the bitch is over 2 years old.

Having been a member of C/D for quite a while, but never posted, I feel I must have my 10p worth here. I too have cavaliers and feel that to mate a bitch before the age of 2 years is criminal. As far as MRI scanning goes, yes it tells you if SM is present but it doesn't tell you if your cav is a carrier. There are several well known people in the breed who have MRI'd and know their stud dogs have SM and reapeatedly use them at stud. The best we can do is carry on with Heart and eye testing and know in our own mind that we have done everything possible in order to breed healthy puppies.

The best we can do is carry on with Heart and eye testing and know in our own mind that we have done everything possible in order to breed healthy puppies.

Not my breed, but I'm puzzled by this statement.  How can any breeder think they have done everything possible to breed healthy puppies if they only carry out two of the recommended tests and omit testing for a third common problem because there is no foolproof answer.

Having read this and another couple on hip scores, I can't help feel that some breeders interpret findings to justify breeding from dogs that are either untested or have been tested and found problems.

What I find very frustrating in my breed (Goldens) is that some breeders carry out the tests (Hip scoring, eye testing, and some elbow) when the scores come back even if they are diabolical they will still carry on regardless and breed, A dam was bred 3 times she had a hip score of 33/34, I know one of the progeny had to be pts due to severe HD, some ignore failed eyes and carry on breeding, I know of a person who advertises studs with hips total 36 and the other dog 28, what is the point of going down the testing route if then you don't like the outcome you carry on regardless. It makes my blood boil.

I suppose the average Joe Bloggs would see an advert that says parents Hip/eye tested etc, but would they know whether the result of the test was good or not?!!!

or would they ask to see the relevant paperwork confirming  the results.  i doubt it!

Regarding asking to see relevant paper work in support of eye test results and hip scores etc... most members of the public do not know about them when they go to buy a dog, let alone ask to see the paperwork. So to try to stop at least one or two buying with out knowing they should ask about these papers, when I get an enquiry I send the enquirer a letter which I keep in draft form on my PC explaining the tests you might expect a flatcoat to have before being bred, and then I pass them back to our litter recorder as Mrs Johnson will only accept puppies from tested stock on her litter book.

Sped through alot of this and YES in my eyes breeding at 12 months is way to young, no matter what the breed they are NOT fully mature at 12 months.  To breed at 12 months in highly unethical and I believe cruel.  Only puppy farmers and people breeding for self gain or money and no thought for the bitch would breed at 12 months.

Have we to assume that the breed clubs who consider their breed to be mature at 12 months either do not know their breed at all or have we to assume they are all puppy farmers breeding for gain?