I understand from the Kennel club that as long as the bitch is over the age of 1 at conception, the litter can be registered.  Can anyone with experience of Cavalier King Charles tell me if they have ever bred a bitch as young as 12 months.
Thank you

Is this a mistake pregnancy or is this going to be a planned pregnancy.

I dont have experience with the CKCS, but I would say any dog is to young to breed at a year old.  It may be ok to do it, in regards to the KC registration and such, but I would have to say its not in the best intrest of the dog to be breed that young.

No pregnancy at the moment. Breeders I have spoken to have said it is ok as it is her second season.  I am just looking for some more feedback.  It seems young to me, which is why I can't understand the kennel club rules.

I guess if you look at it that if a dogs life is the equivilant to 7 of our years. You have to ask yourself would you be OK about a 7 year old child being pregnant if they have started their periods and are able to. And periods in a human can start as low as 6 or 7 & the doctors put you on drugs to delay this process. Some dogs haven't even had their first heat by 12 months. It might be OK by the KC to reg the pups but I think you have to search your conscience. If this is a mistake mating and not very far on your vet can advise you of the best proceedure but if this is a planned mating I wouldnt buy one of the pups and I dont think many people would.

I don't think you can relate dogs ages at all with human ones.  After all the reasons for young teenagers not having children are social ie completing further education, establishing permanent relationships, careers, etc not particularly health, these social reasons would not apply to our dogs generally :-)  Having said that, the reasons for delay in many breeds in to reach an age when breeding quality can be established with appropriate health checks which I understand would be the case with this breed.  The breed club are the best people to advise what is appropriate for each breed.

From a business point of view the more litters the more pups the more registration fee's. What I carnt also understand about the KC is that they put so much importance on having your dogs hips and eyes scored and making it compulsory for them to be KC reg. But why dont they also bring in a rule that says your dogs must also be checked over by your vet and be given an all clear certificate of the dogs generall health, like showing thier are no heart murmors that could endager the bitch at birth. This rule would show they actually cared about the bitch in general.

UK Kennel club seems to register more of less anything (more money for them!) and the limitations they give are pretty rubbish.
Elsewhere in Europe health testing etc has to be done and results need to be in certain limits/clear for the local Kennel clubs to register the litter...
I doubt the breeders you have spoken to are very reputable as most people with consience would not breed from a bitch that young!

I do not know the breed but do they have to have health testing done? Hearts tested etc?
Have the breeders you have spoken to mentioned anything about those?
I'm not sure but I seem to remember reading Cavaliers should not be bred too young because of possible heart problems surfacing little later in life?

I think that 12 months is still too young to breed for the first time.  The animals are still growing at that time and it means that any pregnancy is going to have an effect on their growth.  Even although the new way to calculate a dogs age in human years makes a dog of 12 months equal to 15 human years, I don't think anyone would want a girl to be pregnant at 15 years old.

> I don't think anyone would want a girl to be pregnant at 15 years old.

In many societies around the world that would be perfectly acceptable.  It is not for us because we aspire to more than just having babies but the girls of this age are physically capable of producing healthy babies without physical harm to themselves. 
In dogs, some of the smaller breeds will be mature at 12 months of age but, as I say, certain health tests may inhibit any question of breeding responsibly at that age.  Each breed club will advise as to what it appropriate.

Think some toy people consider it is fine to breed a 12 months because their breeds will be far more mature at that age than one of the larger breeds. It is also considered best to breed the first litter whilst the dam is still supple. It would be MO that a Cavaliers would be fine at the third season but perhaps a little young at 12 months.

But what about just giving the dog a bit of a life before you put it into a breeding programme. They should not be treated as puppy making machines but also animals have a right to a good quality life without being put upon.

Who say they will become a puppy making machine?  They could still only be having a couple of litters.  What life will they be missing out on?  My bitch had her first litter at the age of two.  She was an excellent mother and the moment they were gone resumed her life with the same interests and pleasures as she had before.  She was never going to go to university or pursue a career on the stage :-D

> But what about just giving the dog a bit of a life before you put it into a breeding programme. They should not be treated as puppy making machines but also animals have a right to a good quality life without being put upon.

Do think you may be putting your own feelings onto the bitch, they take it in their stride it is a natural process and without our interference would mate at the first season. They are only on puppy duty for 4 or 5 weeks anyway hardly a lifetime.

My dog is 4.5 she is pregnant and due to give birth in the next 48 hours. It will be her one & only litter purely becuase she is such a wonderful bitch and the stud dog equally as nice that I need to have one of her pups. I have a waiting list of 10 people on it. 9 weeks pregnancy and 8 weeks rearing x 2  = 34 weeks. Dont know what breed you have but I would say that a pretty long time for a dog to be inconvenienced.

>I understand from the Kennel club that as long as the bitch is over the age of 1 at conception, the litter can be registered.  Can anyone with experience of Cavalier King Charles tell me if they have ever bred a bitch as young as 12 months.
>Thank you

Regardless of what the KC regulations are, no one should breed from a Cavalier(dog or bitch)before he/she is 2 1/2 years old & had all the health testing done-including Syringomyelia Screening by MRI scan. The KC will not register a litter from a bitch who was mated under 12 months of age for any breed.The fashion for breeding from young dogs has been one of the reasons that SM 7 MVD problems are quite common in Cavaliers

I promise you she will not be "inconvenienced" for 34 weeks.  The first 6 weeks of gestation barely impacts on a bitch and after weening gets going in earnest most of the hard work will be yours :-)  As long as your bitch is a happy mother, and most are, those few weeks when they are "inconvenienced" are a pleasure to them, fulfilling all their natural instincts.

>It would be MO that a Cavaliers would be fine at the third season but perhaps a little young at 12 months

So you wouldn't be concerned that SM could raise it's ugly head after she was bred from ?????

So there you have it. Good valid reasons from a moral point of view and a science point of view. Be told & stop getting so upperty because we have hit a raw nerve.

> Be told & stop getting so upperty because we have hit a raw nerve.

Sorry, who are you directing that to?  What raw nerve?

anybody that is argueing against me.

I am confused, Moonmaiden has pointed out the recommendations for the Cavalier that Nova was not, apparently, aware of. Not sure what that has to do with your stand that dogs are not emotionally or physically capable of reproducing at 12 months.

I dont think the argument is if they are emotionally or physically able to breed at 12 months but more the moral side of it. Why put a young dog throught that? Has the said animal been health tested?Shown? Why breed from her? The OP has mentioned none of the above which is why i think some people may (rightly or wrongly) think the OP sees using her Bitch at a young age as a money maker not for the good of the breed.

Moonmaiden is not argueing against me you are.

Just had a quick Google as was curious about when a female wolf would first have a litter (yes I know dogs aren't wolves :-P) and found this:

"Female wolves usually become sexually active at age two, although a female wolf may breed as early as age one. However, many female wolves don't mate until they are four or five years old. The alpha female in a wolf pack is usually the mother of the pups."

from http://www.freewebs.com/alphawolfsabrina/reproduction.htm.

Interesting (I thought so anyway!). Surely that is "natural" though and if our dogs lived in packs the same would apply.

I was guilty of generalising on size not breed, of course you should always do the health checks recommended for your breed before considering if the animal is good enough to breed from, that in it's self being a reason for not breeding until the dog is adult enough to know it's quality.

> I dont think the argument is if they are emotionally or physically able to breed at 12 months but more the moral side of it. Why put a young dog throught that? Has the said animal been health tested?Shown? Why breed from her?

Sorry, yes, there is more than one issue being raised here and I have already pointed out the need to complete all appropriate testing but to say you are putting a young dog "through" anything when they are a breed matured by that age is anthropomorphic and erroneous, in my view.

> Moonmaiden is not argueing against me you are.

So what has been said to negate my points?

It's possible the moral issues/angle that I am pointing out that you are not underatnding.

>I guess if you look at it that if a dogs life is the equivilant to 7 of our years.

That's not considered to be an accurate guide, because dogs mature so much more quickly than humans. The accepted chart with a good explanation can be found here.

> Interesting (I thought so anyway!). Surely that is "natural" though and if our dogs lived in packs the same would apply.

Some people will have you think they do and in that case they would not breed at all because the owners would be alfa male and female who would not tolerate another female in the pack reproducing

I haven't actually said I was planning on breeding her, yet or ever (please refer to my original post), it seems to me that everyone jumps to conclusions on this site.  My breeder recommended that if i did want to breed her it should be the second season, which will just be after her 1st birthday (I feel this is quite young).  I am just looking for some information from experienced CKCS breeders, as all breeds mature at differnent ages.  IT IS NOT A MONEY MAKING SCHEME, I am insulted that you can come to that conclusion from a fairly simple question.

I don't think I have had any difficulty in understanding your point I simply don't agree with it :-)

Well Done Zarah

Everybody is going to have their own take on this but I think what most people are trying to say that have good morals is that you are probably best leaving it till the bitch is at least 2.5 years old when she has had a chance of life of her own and her body is also well ready for it then.

Gosh! hope I did not give you that impression, if I did I am sorry I read your post as asking for advice not making a statement.

Crofty, if you are seriously interesting in breeding I would recommend you start with showing.  This will give you the opportunity to test the quality of your bitch against several knowledgeable peoples opinions.  Your breeders encouragement does not ring true of a responsible, knowledgeable breeder I am afraid.
If you bitch does well in the opinions of judges you should then take the recommendations of the Breed club before moving on from there.

> most people are trying to say that have good morals is that you are probably best leaving it till the bitch is at least 2.5 years old when she has had a chance of life of her own and her body is also well ready for it then.

What morals are we applying, human ones?  What chance of life are we denying them?  Of course her body should be ready but some breeds are mature by 1 year old and a great many more by 18 months or 2 years.

> Well Done Zarah

Confused again :-)  Can't open the link but Zarah says that some wolves breed at 1 year old.  Where are their morals? :-D

Yes I was looking for advice, for which I thank you for, some has been very helpful.  Everyone has very different opinions and I would not consider breeding my bitch until she has been vet checked and had all her checks. I do apoligise to those who haven given good advice!

I personally would be completely put off by having a pup from a bitch that is only 1 year old & I think a lot of other peole would be to. But you will have people that it wont bother at all, but then I would be questioning the potential new homes. Maybe no morals or very naive or 1st time dog owners and so therefore dont know what is involved with taking good care of a dog for the rest of it's life. What I'm trying to say that I anybody that has a great genuine natural love and bond with dogs would think that a mother at 1 is not the best situation.

I have cavaliers 18 months to 2years is the right age for there first litter on there thred season. After the tests have been done.

I have cavaliers 18 months to 2years is the right age for there first litter on there thred season. After the tests have been done.

Thank you minnie mouses, that is perfect. 

Genesis.........just wondered what breed you have and how long you have been working/and or showing, and breeding dogs?

I guess it's also down to how many litters are you planning how early you might want to start. And breeding to early is much the same as breeding to late in a dogs life. I personally dont agree with a bitch having anymore litters than 2. You have really got to search your heart and what you really want out of this.

Crofty:whats the desire to breed from her at one year as opposed to 18months/2 years + ???

> What I'm trying to say that I anybody that has a great genuine natural love and bond with dogs would think that a mother at 1 is not the best situation.

That is rather insulting.  Just what harm do you think is committed to a bitch that has matured by 12 months? So why would the owner, or the perspective purchasers be demonstating any lack of regard for the animal.  I do think you are using nothing but athropomorphic perspectives on this, which is fine for your own personal choices but I don't think you should try to project these morals on others in a critical way without examining them properly.

> Can't open the link

I seem to have put an extra dot at the end of the url.

Breeding at a year old would be less common was the point, because it would usually only be the alpha female that would mate (I was trying to go with the angle of what age would it be "natural" to have a litter at).

Freds mum,

As I said my breeder had said the second season, which is just after her first birthday.  I have no reason at all to rush her! So waiting 6 months a year is not a problem!

> I have cavaliers 18 months to 2years is the right age for there first litter on there thred season. After the tests have been done.
>
> Thank you minnie mouses, that is perfect. 

This is not what the breed club recommends, Crofty, you need to read it through, particularly the appendices.