I live in the USA...our hip ratings from OFA are very easy to understand. Can someone please explain to me about your hip ratings? I see things like 3/6 and 4/2 and haven't got a clue. Are the elbow ratings done in the same manner? OFA only states if elbows are normal. Thanks so much

I will try!!

With our scoring system, each hip gets its own score (henc the 3/6).  That is usually followed by the total (both added together) like this.... 3/6 = 9.

The lower the score, the better the hips.  The range for each hip is 0-53, or total 0-106 (0 being the best, 106 the worst).  Our BVA also produce a list of the Mean scores for each breed, and this value is basically what the KC and BVA recommend dogs to use as a guide for breeding, with dogs being used if they are well below the mean for that particular breed.  For example, the 'mean' may be 20, so it is not recommended to breed from a dog unless it's total score is below 20.

Of course, all of this is a guideline, leaving breeders to do what they like (they do not even have to score here if they do not wish to).

Elbows are slightly different, and I am not very up on elbows.  From what I can gather, they are scored from 0 to 3, with 0 being the best.  If one elbow has 0 and the other has 2 the score given would be 2 (is that right?).

I also have OFA'd dogs, and although it is simple to understand, it leavese a lot of room for interpretation.  After all, how large is the range between a good 'good' and a bad 'good'?  Here you would have (and please don't take this literally) a range of maybe 10-20, with 10 being a good 'good', and 20 being a bad 'good', so we know exactly where we stand.  Does that make any sense?

I understand that the PennHip test is more like ours, but I must say, I don't like the way it is done, and I think it is performed on animals too young, but that is only my own opinion.  At least it is not a system that has to be used, as you can still use OFA too.

Incidentally, foreign dogs can have their hips scored under our system, but they would need to be submitted to our BVA.  It would be interesting to see an OFA'd dog be done under the BVA scheme using the same x-rays, and see how the score's relate!

I hope this helps a little, I am sure I am wrong somewhere, so if anyone else knows better, then by all means chip in!!

By the way... where in the USA are you from?  I lived in Missouri and Ohio over a period of 5.5 years, we came back to the UK in August 2006!

Millie

hi  yes the UK hip and elbow rating is scored by numbers, the lower the number the better the hips and elbows.
For example, my girls hips are scored at 3/3 which means a score of 3 on the left hip and a score of 3 on the right hip, giving a total of 6, which is a good low number for the breed.

Elbows are similar way, the lower the score the better the elbow, so my girls elbow score is 0/0 meaning a total of 0 for her elbows.

My other girl has hip score of 4/7, right hip 4 and left hip 7, giving a total of 11, which again is a low score for my breed but not as good as my first bitch.

Hope this is clear for you, I did not understand it all when I first got my breed :)

If you look at the bottom of this OFA page it will explain it and compare: http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html

Thanks so much for clearing this up. I agree with Millie about the good/bad and good/good. I only breed OFA excellent dogs to have ensure that my dogs have the best hip rating. I am wanting to import a chocolate Labrador male pup. Who is the best Labrador breeder to approach? I live in California about 90 miles east of San Francisco.  Thanks so much for your help--Jan

Thanks for that link!  The comparison at the bottom never used to be on there, I am very glad they have included it now!  I was taught in the USA that you do not breed from anything unless it is Excellent or Good, and only Fair IF it was put to an Excellent.  When you look at the comparison chart, it does not surprise me that the movement on American dogs (not all, but the majority) is far better than dogs in this country (again, not all, but a good few!!).  In our breed we have people that breed from dogs with scores that would equite to Mildly and Severely dysplastic without worrying about it!

I think I will be bookmarking that page, it's great that they have those clear diagrams too showing the hips and the degree of damage as it relates to the scores!

Thanks again!

Millie

That's funny, a friend of mine has just imported a Lab pup to West Virginia, she looked at British Kennels, and ended up with one from Finland!! :)

Good luck with your search, I don't know anything about the Labs over here, so can't comment I'm afraid!

Millie

> When you look at the comparison chart, it does not surprise me that the movement on American dogs (not all, but the majority) is far better than dogs in this country (again, not all, but a good few!!).  In our breed we have people that breed from dogs with scores that would equite to Mildly and Severely dysplastic without worrying about it!
>

My older champion bitch is acknowledged as one of the best movers in my breed, and generally which is why she has doen so well in stakes and always got a look in in the group.  Her score is 7/7 = 14, which woudl only gain an OFA Fair.

There is much more to good movement than radiographically perfect or near perfect hips.

Think I would agree with Brainless that the hip score and the movement do not seem to correlate at all. I am also surprised that in the USA only dogs rated excellent are used for breeding, I may be wrong but I do not think in the UK that many dogs are scored 4 or below and wonder if we, in the UK, would be able to continue our lines if we did the same and how many dogs with otherwise everything to recommend them would not be used in favour of a lesser dog with a lower hip score.

Not intended as a criticism but I do wonder if it is the best way to decide on the breeding potential of an animal to just considering that one thing. The small amount of American dogs I have seen being handled by an American the most noticeable thing is the speed they move around the ring, it is so fast it is difficult to assess the movement at all, may be that handlers who travel the world with their dogs have a particular way of showing.

As I said this is in no way a criticism of the Americans or their dogs I am just puzzled how the breeders manage to improve their stock if the hip is considered the ultimate reason for breeding and why they seem to be moved so fast or have I totally misunderstood.

In the USA, I found the majority dogs used for breeding are mostly goods, as Excellent is not an easy score to get. 

The biggest difference I see in the USA with hip scoring is that the very large majority of ethical breeders, whatever the breed, hip score their dogs, and certainly their breeding stock.  That is something we just don't do here, some breeds are far better for hip scoring than others as it has become 'expected' within that breed.  Of course, in Europe, some countries will not register pups without the parents being scored, something I personally would like to see here (not that it is likely to happen as the KC would not want to see their money dwindling!! LOL).

As for the hips being the ultimate reason for breeding a dog, obviously it is not.  as without everything else you cannot maintain good dogs!  But it is a very important factor.  Most people in the USA think nothing of travelling very long distances to use a dog at stud, and loaning of bitches to have litters occurs quite often too.  The American's certainly place much more importance on hips than we do here in the UK!

Having lived and shown in the USA for 5.5 years, and also having lived and shown here for the other parts of my life, I see a huge difference in the way dogs are handled here and in the USA.  The American's are far more 'professional' about it, mostly because the handlers are being paid a lot of money to show the dogs, and win!  I agree, some of the dogs are moved far too fast, but then, that happens here too, though not to the same extent!  They also have another factor to consider with breeding/showing - their judges!!  Most of their judges are all rounders, who judge multiple breeds in one day.  Most of those judges will look for the 'generic sporting dog' movement, which for most breeds as we would look at it, is totally incorrect!  However, these are the dogs that the judges put up because they are not breed specialists (we have the same problem with some breeds here in the UK when some of our all rounders judge!).  So again... the Americans (again, please don't tar all americans with the same brush, but certainly the majority at the shows I went to) seem to strive for the dog that will win because they have that generic movement.

I guess we are very lucky that most of our breeders are still breeding for the dog that fits the breed standard, in every way, and a lot of our judges are breed specialists (ok, maybe not in our own breed as we are a rare breed who have next to no breed specialists!! LOL).  For that I am thankful!!  I would hate to see our judging/breeding go the same way as the Americans, but I do think we could change our attitude to health testing!

I am rambling again!!  Best get home from work! LOL!

Have a great day (even though the weather sucks!!). :(

Millie

Oh, the other thing I was going to say, was that I am not convinced that comparison chart is a true representative of what actually happens and how the scores relate to each other!  On the other hand, if the hip scoring agencies are happy with it, then why should it be wrong?

I have no idea!!  I will continue to use the UK system (as I prefer it anyway), and will carry on using our own ethics (which for our kennel is to not use any dogs unless they have a total score of 15 or under, unless there are good reasons to use a dog which is slightly higher!) :)

Happy breeding!! :)

Millie

Thank you Millie, that is very helpful.

Because we do not see many American dogs or handlers what you do see sticks in the mind. So the speed of moving the dogs, if I were judging I would have to ask them to move again at a slower pace in order to asses the actual movement and the grooming in some breeds that would be best, from a judging point of view, shown un-groomed apart from being brushed and clean.

Have seen photos of my own breed taken in the show ring in the USA and then when meeting them after their being imported they are a different dog with the skill of the groomer removed as in this country they are shown in their natural state no backcombing as it were.

Have heard it said that there are groomers in the states that are so good they could groom a goat to win in a dog show ring, sure that is not true but they do seem to work wonders with the viewable construction and if the judge only does a summery check of what they see, then the grooming must have a big effect on the dog show world.

Do hope showing in the UK stays as it is - in most part the judge is a breed enthusiast and good or bad they know what they would like to see in their breed and care about its future.

If in America they are only breeding from excellents which is equivalent to our four in this persons breed, then I would be very doubtful at all that the comparisons are at all correct.  How many of this breed score 4 or below in the uk?  I should think that it would be an extremely small percentage.

One of my boys scored excellent in his country of origin supposedly that it is equivalent to 7 or under here in the UK, he scored FOURTY ONE on his BVA score, although my vet, the Spanish vet and many others are still shocked at his BVA score.

What breed it it? Would seem relevant that we know as it does have a bearing.

As they are looking to import a labrador Male I would think this may be the breed concerned.

Your right, now I feel really stupid :-(

No worries Jackie it was easily missed I had to reread the thread :)

Grooming is a HUGE part of dog showing in the USA.  Dogs are literally sculpted - Newfies look like cardboard cutouts!!  I learnt a lot about grooming while I was there, but thankfully I am not good enough to be able to do anything like they do! :)  The dogs actually spend more time on the grooming table than they do in the ring over there, using hairspray is done openly next to the ring, dyiing is second nature, and just about all the dogs are bathed and 'blown' every morning before they are shown! 

Even the terriers.......although during a show you do not bath body coat, the legs, beard and undercarriage are bathed twice a day (once before being shown, then again once showing is finished.  The bathing after the show is finished is to remove the acres of hairspray, dye or chalk, and then to put oil into the coat for protection stop it breaking (terrier harsh coats can break easily!).

I was in hysterics watching Westminster in Michael's hotel room (we had just finished getting everything out of MS Gardens and caught some of the Terrier Group on Telly), when the Lakeland came on (one of the breeds we had been showing).  The commentator made a huge thing about the wonderful rich colour of this dog, and how breeders had done a fantastic job breeding for this beautiful colour.  I laughed out loud, it had nothing to do with breeding, it comes out of a tin!!! :)

American's wouldn't know how to show here, with no electric, bathing facilities, room for at least 3 and often 6-10 tables per handler, they wouldn't know where to start!! :)

I do have American friends that do show here, live here, and they are great, but they do now show their dogs naturally here even though the lady is a trained groomer.  I often wonder how they cope when they come over to show at Crufts..... but I am sure they have plenty of friends here that can sort out them being able to use one of the stands that holds dryers etc to get their dogs ready!! LOLOL!

Mind you, on the other end of the scale, we have people that show their dogs (in my breed) even if they are groomed they are not bathed, and the smell is unbearable (I am not joking!!).  I find that despicable and an insult to the judge.  It doesn't take long to bath and groom one of our breed, and it doesn't need bathing every week!!  Our girl was bathed just before Crufts, and her next one was just before Southern Counties, she is groomed for 1/2 an hour every week.  That's it!  At Southern Counties we were aksed what I 'do' to her coat to make it look like it does........for a start we said.....I don't, mum does (she lives with Mum), and then we were trying to find out what she meant by 'do' to the coat.  Apparently because her coat lays so nicely, and looks so good, they think we somehow 'do' something to it to make that happen.  Our answer was basiclly, she is groomed and clean!! :)

Millie

OOps, I forgot a major part of her grooming.... she has her pads trimmed! LOLOLOLOL!

Millie

Have to say although I think there are good breed examples on both side of the pond, I really do hope that we continue with our 'enjoy a day out with the dog type showing' the idea that showmanship of the handler and groomer should take over from the breeder fills me with horror :-O

> . I am also surprised that in the USA only dogs rated excellent are used for breeding,

Certainly I don't think that is so in many b4eeds, dogs that score in the normal range up to fair are used.

I wouod say that the chart probably stands up as a dog who was assessed as good in USA using the same plates was scored 10 here in UK.

I wonder if because many breeders in the US are breeding from only excellents that is why many of the breeds seem to have many more health problems listed than we do here?

Here you can find exact and well explained info on the three methods (UK KC/BVA, FCI and OFA) used in hip grading/scoring:  http://www.grsk.org/Fluckiger_Scorig.pdf