my rottie has always been the best natured dog you could want but she is now 8 1/2 yrs old and getting grumpy.

she had a lump removed from her neck on 13/06/08 and i will be getting the result this afternoon of the biopsy.

this weekend she has snaped at a puppy twice on sunday and once today i am not sure if this is just old age?
being a stooge and just putting them in their place?
or a real temprement change linked to health?

she has always been great with my kids and grown up with them my youngest are 4&5 yrs and i am a bit worried whether she could change to be untrust worthy which i could not stand and i am having thought as to whether it is her time to pass on.

i am finding myself in termoyle (sp) with this much loved family member and the safety of my kids (she has not shown aggression to them yet) but could this happen?

What do you mean when you say her time to pass on???

she may be unwell and i think you should just wait and see the results of the biopsy.

if she is feeling off colour she may just want to be left alone, just give her some quiet time and see how she is

hope the results are good and she is just having a off couple of days :)

Is the pup pushing it's luck?  She may just be warning it to behave itself better.

What do you mean when you say her time to pass on???

i mean PTS

i can not and will not put my kids at risk.

pups are six weeks and trying to play with her she growls in a grumpy way which i think is normal at her age 8-10 being average age for rotties but sunday she snapped at one and made it scream she hs not marked it but frightened the life out of it.

we are keeping one of the pups so although the others will go to their new homes soon there will be one left here  my main concern is will she feel it ok to reprimand the kids as she get on in years.

I take it that they are not her pups and even if they were she needs some peace. She may be feeling unwell but even if she is not why should she have to put up with weaned pups pestering her?

She has always been a dog of impeccable temperament so why would this suddenly change? She has just had a lump removed so may well be not feeling 100%. I agree with MandyC, wait for the biopsy results before making any decisions. For the time being, if you are worried about your kids, keep her away from them. The same with the pups, if she is feeling a little delicate she won't want pups bothering her, and it's not fair to subject her and not expect her to react.

> we are keeping one of the pups so although the others will go to their new homes soon there will be one left here  my main concern is will she feel it ok to reprimand the kids as she get on in years.

If the kids are teasing her, disturbing her sleep, fussing her when she wants quiet time etc.. then, yes she may well tell them off, but they should not be doing this, they should respect the fact that this aging dog may want for a more peacefull life in her final years.

My old dog (14yrs) has got 'cranky' in his old age, but he is never forced into a postition by the children for him to feel he needs to tell them off, they have learnt to respect the fact that (just as some adults do), his tollerence for things has altered. He is not a 'snappy' dog, but I am still aware that he deserves more respect in his old age.

no the pups are not her she has never had her own pups.

she does get her peace and quiet as most of the time she tends to hide away now but both she and the pups still need to be socialize with the family.

i have just had the biopsy results back and they show no sign of cancer or anything to worry about just fibrous tissue.

i forgot to mention that lately she has been having pale gums and the vet thought she may have a enlarged heart which is common in large breed dogs as they get older.

so she may just not be feeling very well.

i agree with you about having respect for old dogs and all my kids have be born into a house with dogs so are very good with them but my two small kids don't always understand why this perfect family pet does not want the cudles that she has always loved she has never growled at them and still doesn't but just the look in her eye is no longer love and admiration but almost mummy get them off please she look strait at me for help.

of course the boys are told to leave her she a granny now but telling a four year old that learned to walk by holding her back that she does not want to be cuddled now is hard.

No disrespect, but you should be trying to make her as comfortable as possible in her old age, not having to put up with pups and children when she wants to be left alone. She can't tell your youngster she doesn't want him to cuddle her (other than snapping if it gets too much), so you will have to do it for her. It will come down to supervision really, which it always should anyway, with any dog and child.

I agree.  In the same way that we need to make special arrangement in our homes and lifestyles to accomodate our dogs when they are puppies we often need to do it again when they are elderly.  It's just part and parcel of dog owning.  I really think you need to keep her away from the puppies and children unless you are there to supervise and stop them doing anything that would make her uncomfortable. 

The lump may not be anything to worry about but she may have something else wrong with her that is causing her to be in pain or discomfort.

Before even considering putting to sleep as she has done nothing wrong I would like others have said think of ways of making her more comfortable.  She is getting older, I'm afraid in my opinion it is the children that need to be taught to give her some space.  4 & 5 is old enough to understand when you tell them something.

I don't think that her snapping at a pup is anything disasterous, she probably didn't want them around her and it is the only way she can tell them.

Give your girl her own space, a bed out of the way of children and pups etc...she probably needs time to rest by herself.  Also keep a close eye on here incase something is medically wrong and that is why her behaviour has changed.

give her space and quiet, she is getting on. we have a 13 year old rott, she does not mix with my 11 mth GSD as he is far too bouncy, she is unsteady on her back legs and would justifiably snap or even bite if he barged into her, she does get on and mix ok with 3rd dog, a quieter 6 yr xbreed. She spends a lot of time separated by a stair gate - her choice, as she takes herself off to her 'quiet place' and just settles till her next feed time.
Chris

i agree with you about having respect for old dogs and all my kids have be born into a house with dogs so are very good with them but my two small kids don't always understand why this perfect family pet does not want the cudles that she has always loved she has never growled at them and still doesn't but just the look in her eye is no longer love and admiration but almost mummy get them off please she look strait at me for help.

of course the boys are told to leave her she a granny now but telling a four year old that learned to walk by holding her back that she does not want to be cuddled now is hard.

The small children need to learn that as we age we don't want to be pestered, and they need to learn that this lovely family member is feeling her age, and give her the respect she deserves after giving a lifetime of love and devotion to them. They can be stopped, if it was a human granny they would leave her, no different to the dog. This lovely dog is looking to you, her mum, for help when the kids get to much, she gave her help when the kids started walking, now you need to help her to have some peace in her old age. It may be hard for your 4 yr old, but it will be a good lesson for her that she can't always do what she wants and that other living things have feelings, and that they get old, frail, and eventually die. bfore then, they need love, care and attention.
This lovely girl won't bite if you keep aware, the younger children shouldnt be lft alone with any dog anyway, so the chance decreases. Your new puppy will also need sleep time, the children cannot pester then. keep puppy from annoying her, she deserves the best at her age. warmth, love, and time to herself

I do feel this lovely girl needs the love and devotion and peace she has well earned and maybe rethink keeping a puppy until she is gone...of old age. She's recovering from an op, maybe an enlarged heart. We owe our oldies everything to make their autumn years comfortable and peaceful, the oldies are so special. We have to be as selfless as they have been devoted, to the last beat of their heart. 

Benson, sounds like your Rottie Girls is having a hard time to me. She has had a lump off her neck so she cant be feeling tip top anyway, then has a litter of pups to contend with, which must be stressful for her.
Sounds like she was giving the pups a warning

Dont understand why you suddenly think this dog may attack your children if she has always been fine before, like you say she is getting on so just make sure your children show her extra respect and not pester her.

She could be in pain from whatever this lump was she had removed.

I really dont like the suggestion you are thinking of having her pts simply because she snapped at a puppy, dogs should be a loved member of the family not a throw away item!

Kim

this girl has been a very much loved member of the family and i agree with every thing that has been said.

it is hard to tell you every thing in one post about how her life is with us.

we have what i call our dog room it is a converted garage on the side of our kitchen with direct acsess  and we have a stair gate fitted so this is where she spends most of her time her own chose not ours, we are now shutting the stair gate when the kids get home from school so that she is not bothered by them she is happy to be there and will ask if she wants to come out.

i have just spoken in length with my vet and she had a good listen to her heart which sounds ok and her gums were pink while in the vets. her gums do go very pale and i think this is related to her mood change. the vet has said that we should wait a few weeks to see if her temprement changes back after the op site has healed but she agreed with such a large powerful breed that if her temprement gets worse and she warns the kids either by growling or snapping that she will respect and support our wishes to let her go.

please don't get  wrong she is in no way a throw away item but i would rather remember her as the loving loyal pet that she is than the dog that attacked my child.

we will try and make her last days weeks or years as comfortable as possible we owe her that.

please remember this is a busy house with three children under 12 yrs.

if i came on here and said my rottie attacked my child you would jump on me as irresponsible for keeping a dog that i new to be ify i am trying to take advise and opinions before this happens.

Could you get her a crate so that she can have her space - my old Irish has a bed she spends most of her day on and when she is there everyone dogs included let her be. 

We also went through a stage when she first suffered from epilepsy where her behaviour was unpredictable - my daughters were told that she was old and unwell and she should be left alone.  She never ever went for the children - but I was very careful in that time - as initially the drugs really changed her - thankfully it didn't last too long.

So if you could give her her own space - dog room sounds perfect rereading - and teach the children that when she is there they must leave her along - whilst I agree on the socialisation I think perhaps at her age and if she isn't feeling too great maybe keep them separate.

My old girl as I said spends most of her day on her bed in the kitchen - gets up for a tickles, food and for a potter in the garden with us.

So yes take precautions and don't leave kids and her unsupervised and perhaps ensure they give her plenty of space.

Hope it works out with her and she sounds like she has been a wonderful companion for you all.

> if i came on here and said my rottie attacked my child you would jump on me as irresponsible for keeping a dog that i new to be ify i am trying to take advise and opinions before this happens.

She isn't 'iffy', she's old bless her. She isn't unpredicatble either, as it is easy to predict that an aging dog may get grumpy in certain situations.
If her quality of life is dramatically effected (as opposed to just being old), then having her PTS is the final good thing you can do for her, but if her old age impacting on everybody elses life (ie, having to make special considerations for the old girl) is the deciding factor in having her PTS it is quite upsetting :(

It is possible to give an old dog some peace and quite during thier final days/years, even in a busy household as long as everybody is willing to 'muck-in' and make the adjustments that come with caring for an elderly, loved pet.

Your dog hasnt been any threat to your children in all the years she has been alive. She is poorly and oldish, and just days after her operation you foolishly allowed weaning puppys to pester her. That was your decision to do such a thing, and if meant it she could have killed that puppy. ANY dog could, but she didn't.

Please for gods sake give her the respect she deserves and as you and your Vet both think there is something wrong,  find out what it is. And let her live her autumn years with peace, dignity and the love she has always afforded you.

That was so well said Golden Lady! 

I'm not sure why growling at children would be grounds for pts? I do only have little dogs but I have always thought that's how they can communicate if they are not happy and need to be left in peace.

thank you to every one for your reply's.

we will be keeping her in the dog room when the kids get home from school until they go to bed which is only 3 1/2 hrs a day except weekends will be longer and the pups will not be aloud access to her until they all go then we can work on her getting used to the one that will stay they never get left unattended with her anyway.

the breed of pups i have are not crazy as pups compared to some so hopefully when she is feeling better things will be ok.

it is a shock when you get such a temprement change in a dog you have always been able to trust and i think i was panicking regarding the kids but you hear such terrible story's of dogs attacking without warning and i am very aware that she is old but still very powerful.

i would prefer her to chose when her time comes as it is a very hard decision for anyone to make the feeling of guilt did you leave it to long with your dog in pain. 

as her problem is her heart i dont know how bad it is making her feel i have never had a dog with heart problems before but she is still so full of life on her walks its like she is a 5yr old then when at home calm and hiding away.

i understand that some people think growling at a child is the only way a dog can tell a child/dog but with respect a rottie that has never growled but would just walk away to show this change in character is not something i take lightly.

we all have our own views of what we consider exceptable behavior but should respect the difference in breed traits.

10 years ago my old collie would grumble at the kids as he got up and walked away and that was fine but my girls growl showing teeth and snapping with chase on my pups is something i never want to see on my children.

> 10 years ago my old collie would grumble at the kids as he got up and walked away and that was fine but my girls growl showing teeth and snapping with chase on my pups is something i never want to see on my children.

This is perfectly understandable, but I don't think the way she is with pups is an indication of the way she will act to your children (as long as they stick to the 'rules'). When I brought my Mastiff pup home, my old dog took a few snaps at the pup with teeth showing & snapping, occasionally he'll still do this if pup pushes his luck, but even when the old dogs teeth have made contact with pup no damage has ever been done it is simply a warning, it looks an awesome sight in my little lab-cross, so I can understand you feeling un-nerved seeing a Rottie act like this. Even though my old boy's tollerence is not what it used to be he hasn't once came close to snapping/growling at the kids, but he is alsways given the space he needs and is supervised while with the kids, so they never get a chance to 'push him too far'.

> i would prefer her to chose when her time comes as it is a very hard decision for anyone to make the feeling of guilt did you leave it to long with your dog in pain. 

It is an awfull thing watching your dog age before your eyes. As I've said, my old dog is over 14yrs, he's deaf, his sight is poor, his back legs aren't very good and although he sleeps much more these days, he still enjoys life, I find myself studying him atleast every day wondering if he really is as happy as I think, but as long as he has that 'sparkle' in his eyes we'll do all we can to keep him with us. I think, when they have had enough, you can see it in thier eyes.

Benson67, do see where you are coming from but feel the dog is in pain and frightened, hence the change in her. Think it is fair to say dogs' temperaments do not change but their need to express how they feel does.

Good idea to keep the children and the old lady apart if the children can't be trusted to leave her and you are too busy to supervise. Is it not possible, at least till she is better or you find out what is wrong, to separate the pups too. She needs a place to call her own where she feels safe and can sleep without the worry of something taking advantage of her being sick. Don't forget that it is only our protection that stops a sick animal being attacked and killed by it's own kind or other predators, it is an inbuilt memory back to the wild that a sick dog needs to hide somewhere safe and their only protection is to attack first.

Do think your vet may be telling you what they think you want to hear, they should be taking tests to find out what is wrong with her as it is obvious that something is.

I had a rescued tervuren bitch about 18months? a year later I had my son- I knew that she [kye] did not like children- well not that she did not like- but did not trust them she was good until they tried to put any weight on her like sit [I think the previous owner allowed her 2 small kids to treat her as a cuddly toy] she would give a little growl, i have photo's of my young boy in nappies drinking his bottle while he has his head on her side so she did learn to trust my son. Only one day when he was 18 months old I heard a noise went into the front room and josh was crying and I knew instantly she had gone for him- I put her in the garden and sat my child on the work surface and checked him over and I found a small nick about an inch long on his forehead the skin was broken but no blood so not deep, I could see that she had snapped and caught him there. Now as I was worried I called my sister who had a 4 year old son and a dog also- her answer was yeah I tell my son if he irritates the dog she will bite you ! now that shocked me- but has held me in good stead as children should learn very early on that family pets some days can be grouchy or depressed and not in the mood to be playful. My son learned a lesson that day not to climb on kye and kye learned that it upset mum when she told her boy off- never again did kye go for any child or anyone else. My son became very respectful of her space and not assume he could do as he pleased as a lot of kids do think that.
With old age comes the right to be moody and not up for young pups or young kids to hassle you. She only told the pup to get lost in her doggy way if she had turned aggressive/mean she could of very easily killed the pup.

> With old age comes the right to be moody and not up for young pups or young kids to hassle you.

Well said.

If you can't tell people and pups to P*** off when you're old and given a lifetime of service to a family,when can you?
AND from what you've described that's all she's done...bless her.

So agree with that

the pups are not with her she has her space but at the time she snapped i had let her out for a pee in the garden and to meet the couple that came to see the pups they also had rotties before and wanted to meet her the pups are not left with her at all.

the kids also do not tease or pull any of the dogs around kids that have been brought up to respect dogs don't do this.
and are not left alone with her ever. as i agree you should always supervise them.

any way i just got back from my vets with another of my dogs and let her out she came bounding out full of life and wanting to play so i think i am worrying to much as has been said by a few on here if she has never done any thing wrong before why should this change now we will respect her peace and play when she want on her terms and continue to love her as we have always done (she is my biggest baby) and always will.
i have always been luck with having very good dogs but lately i seem plagued with problems and i am a worrier.i have had most of my dogs as pups and with this you can mold and train them to be the way you want i always go training not just as pups but think it is good to continue and refresh as they grow with you, with my other girl that attacked the jr she came to me a 2yr old and unsocialized and she has made me a bit more on edge when problems arise. i also think that in the past i would just deal with it but since finding this forum i can learn more from some people with experience.

> let her out she came bounding out full of life and wanting to play

Ahh, bless her :)

> i have always been luck with having very good dogs but lately i seem plagued with problems and i am a worrier

I think, when you have a large &/or powerfull breed, there is a tendancy to over-anylise every little tiny behaviour in an attempt to be 'on the ball' with potential behavioural problems. I know when my Mastiff pup was younger, I sought advice over the fact that he used to go and find somewhere quiet to sleep - I was so worried it meant he wasn't sociable and didn't like human company!!

Reading through the whole thread, it looks like you did freak out for a minute and just panicked about the safety of your kids. In your panick it came accross as the dog was just too much trouble. It's obvious now, that this is not the case, she is a loved & respected member of the family, long may she be with you :)

ahh she will never be to much trouble for me bless her, and today she 5 again so mybe just post op grumps.

i hope she can be one of the few to last into her teens we have loved every minuet with her and will be lost without her she has been a very good ambassador for her breed and has changed to perception of the breed for may in my village and my own family who didn't like the idea of such a powerful breed with children but she has been a pussy cat and long may it last.

thank you everyone for thought and support i will now stop panicking and carry on as we were.

Our girl gets grumpy with our puppy and she is only 2 1/2! We take grumpy signs as a sign to give her some time out (a nice blanket in the kitchen with her favourite treats and toys, so she feels really special like its all for her :) )
Any dog thats older wont tolerate young pups hassling her espicially is she is ill :(
There is no real need to speak of being pts in my opinion as she has done nothing wrong, only told a couple of young pups where her line is!!
And if shes ill, surely you can arrange so she is seperate from them but not you?

She was there first before the pups and now she needs your help, please dont do the old age thing out with the old in with the new :(
But from looking at the whole thread seems like you know where you are with her now and good luck with her results :)

> ahh she will never be to much trouble for me bless her, and today she 5 again so mybe just post op grumps.
>

If she had a GA it was not surprising she was under the weather, it takes 2 days to get over an operation and about 10 to recover from the GA.

So pleased both she and you have regained your confidence in the situation and hope she continues to regain her health.

thinking back on it it was day 9 post op that she told pup off day 11 today and has only been loud out with pups after op at the week end so thinking about it i probably was the GA she has ignored pups today through the gate so maybe is feeling better.

but i will keep a check on her gums and when they are pale i will not let pups get near her as this could be when she feels poorly as well.

sounds like she was just feeling crap after the surgery bless her heart!
i am sure your companion of 8 years is still the wonderful dog she has always been, just wanted to be left alone and a growl or snap is the only way she can say that.

she is a pensioner now for her breed so let her live the easy life doing things at her pace when she wants to

i hope she gets better everyday and that she lives many more years a happy family companion

give her a big (((hug))) from me too :)

A big hug from me too (((Hug))) bless the old girl :)

Hy, Good...good to get your confidence back as I have just had a GA and op on Tuesday and I feel like C***.

I have a Rottie too, and nowhere has it said yours has ever growled at your children!

It will take her weeks to get over a GA, the older you are the longer it takes. The Vet should know that one. Give her lots of peace and rest, as one minute you feel great, then you dip down badly,  trust me, I know!!! and give yourself some time.

I rushed into the wrong decision once, 25 years ago, and I still cry myself to sleep over it.

PS I ought to add on the above, it was not a PTS situation!!!

well she has been very good all week except last night when a friend came round that has know my girl since a pup and loves her to bits i was telling her about her gums going pale showed her the mouth which was very pink she was laying down beside me then her husband spoke my girl then jump up ran to him for a fuss and her gums went instantly pale. she then came back to me and had a cuddle on my lap, my other adult dog got up on the sofa beside her and she growled at him this is not normal for her to do and i just gave her a cuddle and reassured her that every thing was ok.  so i think it may be more to do with her heart and feeling sh**y.

Thats not normal, what has the Vet said? Be careful of cuddling her after she has growled, as that just says 'its' OK to do that'

Sounds like she needs thorough health tests to me.

i have never had a dog with heart problem. considering her age 8 1/2 what test and treatments can or should be done, the vets have not offered any what should i ask for?

My 9 yr old bull terrier lies on the armchair and tinker my 4 yr old lab terrier mix always gets up and lies right on top of him- as she's been doing it since she was 5 months old snoop my bully has never grumbled or moaned at her up until a few months ago, he has a bad spine problem now he is on medication for it. Some nights he's not bothered but then it will happen out of the blue. I know he loves Tinkerbell very much but when she puts her weight on him I suppose its the only way of him to let her know get off. That's most probably why your girl growled at your other dog when she came over- most probably got hurt unintentially- so now your old girl is being over cautious with your other dogs, I expect if they were tiny light weights she would not be telling them off ! My tinker is only about 18kg were as snoop is over 30 but she still hurts him.