please can someone give me some advice, just took our gorgous 8 week cocker spaniel puppy to the vets for her first puppy check and were told she has a grade 4 heart murmur.  The vet told us that she will book an ultrasound but can not tell us any more but did say grade 4 is bad.  We are devastated and after speaking to the breeder she is also devastated.  She has offered to take out puppy back but it would break my heart to give her up.  The breeder has also suggested we go for a second opinion in the meantime.  Has anyone else had this problem with there pup, was surgery needed, does your insurance cover this?  The joy of having this lovely pup come bounding into our lives has been destroyed by the vet's diagonosis.

Heart murmur in pups is very common and usually goes as the pup gets older, however I am not a vet. would go for a second oppinion and if the second vet is concerened I would take the breeders offer. Sorry but you don't want a sick puppy although I think your vet may be a bit over the top.

3 years ago a friend of ours Boxer had heart mummor and had various tests etc and 3 monthly checks. Shes now 3 and the mumur has gone down to lowest grade. She does have to watch dog doesnt get over excited/ out of breath but apart from that she leads a normal hetic boxer's life!!

there a very good heart spec in guildford surrey

I don't think the vet can classify the grade just by listening with a stethoscope, I'd get a second opinion too beofre the ultrasound.

i would get a second opinion and let the spe do the ultrasounds and xrays. not your nomal vet

You may find this site helpful and comforting http://www.bregorreyglens.co.uk/as.html It does not give information on the young pup I don't think but does say that a dog with a grade 4 are unlikely to have any symptoms. Must say I think given time your pup will either not have a murmur or a low grade one. Vets can be a bit over zealous and in a 8 week puppy I think is really sticking her neck out.

Just found this on a site for Bull Terriers which I think may give you hope.

Young puppies can sometimes have an innocent murmur which disappears as they grow, it is therefore not recommended to test your bull terrier until they are at least 1 year old and yearly thereafter.

Can't say if the same applies to Cockers but I would get another opinion before even thinking of further tests. And yes I think if you already have the pup insured you will be covered by the insurance but if you phone them you will be told of any restrictions.

My Gordon Setter max was 'diagnosed' with a Grade 4 heart murmur at 8 weeks old - like you we were very concerned and fretting - told his breeder who also was worried - we had an ultrasound done and nothing showed up was just told to keep an eye on him - he was full of life and a typical puppy.  When I had his hips scored at 2 I mentioned re: his heart murmur and was told he doesn't have a murmur at all and that it was quite normal for a puppy to have a heart murmur!

Think the name is flow murmur?  Could be wrong though - so if I were you I wouldn't be panicking too much - is your puppy lively and healthy otherwise?

Unless you Vet is a heart specialist then i don't know how he could grade it. Many puppies have flow murmurs and by only a few weeks later they have outgrown it. Please do not get upset yet. I would wait a few weeks and then if your Vet is determined that there is a problem then get an ultrasound done by a specialist. I remember a friend who bred and sold  a puppy and the new owners Vet said that the puppy had a heart murmur that could kill him and to send the puppy straight back to the breeder (which they did). My friend took the puppy to her own Vet who checked it out and gave the first vaccine without problems. The puppy was sold on and has had no problems at all. I sold a puppy to owners that had had a Golden previously. Their original dog was diagnosed with a murmur at 8 weeks and they were told that the puppy wouldn't survive above its first birthday. As they loved it so much they informed the breeder that they would be keeping it no matter what. The 'puppy' died of cancer at 11.5 years old.

Having bred two breeds which have historically been plagued by heart problems, I have heart scored all my animals for many years and have quite a clear picture of what's going on in my bloodlines.
Ordinary vets do use the numerical grading system and, depending on their expertise, can usually detect murmurs quite well.
HOWEVER what they are often quite poor at is deciding the murmur's importance and the dogs long term prognosis.
It is VERY common for puppies to have 'flow murmurs' which resolve with time. Just where the noise is coming from within the structure of the heart is most important.
A small hole within the septum ( dividing wall) of the heart causes turbulence and noise quite far forward in the chest.This can be a developmental  problem which resolves with normal growth.
I had a whole litter diagnosed as having severe heart murmurs at 8 weeks and my rather enthusiastic young vet insisted I should take them to a vet hospital to be kept in, sedated and U.Sound scanned to see the extent of the problem. She was very concerned and was even mentioning potential surgery.
I chose not to do this, I've seen this before and accept that time is all that's needed.  That was my choice and I do have rather a lot of experience with puppies.
At time of writing all puppes have perfectly clear murmur-free hearts and that has rather suprised my vet.... well she is rather wet behind the ears!!
If you are in the position to wait - I would do so, rushing in is often a vet's first instinct and in todays litigeous society one can't blame them.
A cardiologist would probably just confirm your vets findings and I'm not sure if they would advise 'waiting and seeing' as many experienced puppy owners have posted on this topic.So you would be putting yourself in more of a quandry.Ask around in your breed or get your breeder to. You may find other people in your breed who better understand the implications of this murmur.

Good luck

I had a pup with a heart murmur and he out grew it, the owner still wanted him. Dozer who is now going to be 7 yrs old he had a heart murmur as well but he to out grew it, think most puppies do. Dozer is the one standing on top of the other 3 in my avetar :) very healthy except for his rectal prolapse :(

I am wondering if these "Heart Murmurs" in young puppies have anything to do with stress.  These puppies have gone to their new homes, away from their siblings and mother....evrything in their lives has changed.  I hear of so many puppies going for a check up when they go to new owners that appear to have heart murmurs.....but once the puppy has settled into its new home the murmur disappears.  Could it be stress related?.

> I hear of so many puppies going for a check up when they go to new owners that appear to have heart murmurs.....but once the puppy has settled into its new home the murmur disappears.  Could it be stress related?.

It is commonly due to the switch over, at the moment of birth, from a single circulatory system (ie no lung involvment) to a double one.
The opening that takes blood from the heart (through the Pulmonary artery) to the lungs,  is closed until the moment of birth and the opening which once took blood to the placenta needs to close.
Quite a lot to do in that first breath so can take a little longer...up to 12-14 weeks in fact for it all be sorted. This delayed developmental murmur is what is generrally called 'flow murmur'.
There are, however, other places in the heart that can send out abnormal heart sounds, immature valves for example.
It is possible that an abnormal heart sound comes from a congenital ( made up wrong in development of feotus) problem which wont resolve.
The stress theory wouldn't have applied in the case of my whole litter suffering from FM as I had kept all 3 and didn't let them go until they were declared perfect.
I didn't want the 'stress' of other vets telling my puppy owners that they had a tragic situation on their hand..... which it patently wasn't.
The reason it is first picked up by new owners vet is because that is usually the first time anyone has listened to their heart

where as it is common for some puppies to show signs of heart murmur which then disappear, sometime it is possible they do have a bad heart murmur, we were told out labrador puppy had grade 5 by the vet, we did ultrasound and she does indeed have a bad heart murmur so we went to see the cardiologist at queen mothers hospital for small animals, and she ended up having an angioplasty operation where a balloon was inserted into her back inner leg into the vein and travelled up the body to the heart valves where the ballon was gently inflated to stretch the heart valves, risky operation 50/50 survival rate, but she did survive, and is now a healthy 15  month old lively labrador, she still has a murmur at present it has gone down from 5 to three/two, but she is loving and living life to the full, whatever the future brings she will have had an excellent life, one problem though insurance would not pay the £4000 plua operation as she was born with the condition, so it was a might expensive for us to say the least but worth evey penny.

The reason it is first picked up by new owners vet is because that is usually the first time anyone has listened to their heart

I have only bred two litters, with both, I had my puppies vet checked, including their hearts, before they went to their new owners.
I thought that was part of being a responsible, caring breeder. Personally, if purchasing a pup, I wouldn't consider buying from a breeder who didn't vet check.

> I thought that was part of being a responsible, caring breeder. Personally, if purchasing a pup, I wouldn't consider buying from a breeder who didn't vet check.

In this case the breeder was as surprised as the owner (I believe from re-reading the OP) leading me to surmise that he/she didn't do as I routinely do......vaccinate and health check each and every puppy I bring into this world. Which of course requires me to have them stethoscopically examined at 7-8 weeks and again at 10 weeks keeping them until their vaccinations are complete.
For many puppy owners however,my original statement stands true,

I agree with you Tooolz, the point I am making is that all pups should be health checked before going to new owners. My puppies were checked soon after birth- vet in to check mum and pups and again at 8-10 weeks.

thank you to you all for your replies.  We went to another vets and were told that is was a grade one and they were not concerned, so weight off my mind for now.  I was under the impression she had had a puppy check before we got her, I agree the breeder should have done this as a matter of course, but maybe I should not have assumed going off what I was told.  Anyway our puppy is a little live wire and I am sure I will be on here like a nervous mother asking loads of other things

That's really good news for you, Maisiemay.  Enjoy your lively pup!

Best wishes.

Perhaps she did and that's why she was surprised your vet had picked up a murmur if her vet hadn't? Anyway it's most likely it's just the flow murmur and will go away. Have fun with him!

Very pleased with your news but cross that you had to go through all that worry when all that was need was for the 1st vet to tell you they like to do a second check in about 3 months, you would not have had the unnecessary worry and they would have been able to check what they thought may have been a problem.