What do you all think of Cesar Milan?

I would just like to say, that after going to some training classes in and around my surrounding area, I just found they were just not working with me or my dog, it was pretty boring really, I started to copy Cesar's way of training as id been watching his shows each night for the last couple of months and I decided to try his techniqe out, well I can tell you it has worked and it is a great way to train your dog (and yourself!) some people don't agree with his way but I most definatly do! AND IT DOES WORK! (well for me anway..) it's hard work as you have to keep it up everyday but I find it's a great result, does anyone else watch Cesar and has anyone tried his techniqe and what do you think??  thanx xx

>has anyone tried his techniqe and what do you think?? 

I haven't tried it myself, but a friend did. His dog ended up biting all three members of his family and was put to sleep earlier this year.

I'll give it a miss thanks.

Every way of training suit people and their dogs differently, personally I wouldn't use his technique and personally I wouldn't copy anything off the TV either.

>Every way of training suit people and their dogs differently, personally I wouldn't use his technique and personally I wouldn't copy anything off the TV either.

Ditto.

What I've seen of his training methods, I certainly wouldn't be using his techniques on a Newf (presuming that's what you have from your user name) as they don't respond well to harsher methods. 

I love Cesar Milan.

I do use some of his ways but not any of the physical stuff (alpha rolls, neck jabs, jerks on the leash etc..), it's the calm assertive leadership I like and the rewarding a dog whilst it is the right state of mind, not just doing what it's told.

There are 2 of his episodes that stick out and I have found them truly amazing.
1 was with a dog that was so frightened of everything it was even afriad of it's owners (they had rescued it from a laboratory which it had grown up in). Within a couple of hours of Cesars approach the dog was choosing to be with it's owners instead of running away from them. It obviously was somthing that would take a very long time to sort out & make lasting progress with, but Cesar knew exactly how to 'talk' to the dog and he wasn't using words - just body language and the dog was understanading him.

The second was a Boerboel (south african mastiff) named Nasir, that had been deemed too agressive to keep as it would attack it's owner and anybody going past it's kennel. Cesar changed him around too, on meeting hm for the first time Cesar was met with a calm, placid dog - this shocked the owner. Cesar connected with the dog using the dogs language - body language. There is a follow up on line about him (not via Cesar's web site), he had a new family and there are some pics of him enjoying camping trips and other days out.

Cesar really does know a lot about dogs, but I wish the more physical side of his methods were not on the TV, too many people miss-understand and think a simple jab in the neck/alpha roll of thier dog will cure all of it's problems, they do it with the wrong energy, at the wrong time and for the wrong reasons and then the dog ends up getting PTS for defending itself :( There is so much more to Cesar's methods than that.
I have learnt from Cesar that physical force/strength means nothing and is no way to control a dog, a strong will & mind are much more effective, I have aslo learnt that you must have the right attitude too, there is no room for frustration, anger, panick or any other negetaive thinking, positive mental attidue is the way :)

ETA: a Mastiff does not respond to harsh treatment (so I have read, I haven't personally found this out as I have never been harsh), but I use Cesars methods on my Mastiff to great effect, just not any of the heavy handed/physical stuff. Calm & assertive is great for my Mastiff.

> What do you all think of Cesar Milan?
>

Cesar Milan has been discussed quite a few times already. If you do a site search, you should be able to find the previous threads & get an idea of what people think of his methods. Here is a fairly recent thread to start you off : http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/105308.html

Thanx everyone for responding, I do myself use the calm assertivness on my Newf instead of the jerking the lead ect... as he doesn't need this, as he does need boundries as he can take over in the house, I do use sometimes the 'touch' on the side of the neck as he a bugger for cats when we are out, he is always on alert mode looking for them even tho he loves our 'shorthair' cat!!!! I was told when I was adopted by my Newf to be firm and set boundries and this way is just to 'snap' him out of the situation as if I didn't, I would most definatly be on my face trying to stop him charging after a cat... so Ceaser was the most effective way without hurting him.   I know this way does'nt appeal with some people but I think if it is applied well then it shouldn't hurt the dog at all, anyway, again thanx everson for your replies it has helped me a lot....xx

My Mastiff pup was very hard to walk a little while ago, as he would pull to greet people. The thing that worked best in the end was treats. Whenever I saw somebody I would let pup know I had a treat 'what's this', as it kept half his mind on me & he would then listen, if he started to pull I would show him the treat, if he walked past the person without pulling he would get the treat. In only a couple of days it started to sink in. If ever he gets exited by people passing now, he'll look at me & wait for my response :) If I want him to sit, he'll sit & get praise (sometimes a treat too), or if we're going to carry on past them I say 'walking' and he gets praise (& sometimes a treat) for walking without pulling.

Maybe, if your Newfie is a food-aholic like my Mastiff, treats will give you the upper-hand in order to get through to him the behviour you want from him when he does see a cat?

I did start to think that treats were not the way forward - Cesar wouldn't need them. But only a week ago I saw Cesar using treats to distract a dog that would get aggresive with others. A treat can be used the same as 'the touch', something to snap them back into your reality and get thier attention in order to re-direct thier behaviour :) 
Food is the quickest way to get my Mastiffs attention, he would do anything for a treat :)
Another good thing about using a treat as a distraction - it is also a reward, so it never stops being attractive. I have tried getting my Mastiffs attention by touching his side, but after a couple of times of that he didn't bother - nothing intersting by being tapped on the side - more fun to pull to slobber over strangers, but treats - he always finds them a perfect distraction so it really made teaching him what I wanted very easy :)

Thanx everso mastifflover, by the way, they are fab dogs mastiffs - you lucky thing you!  my friend's got one and he's daft as a brush... but Newfs have been my breed for 15 years but I do love all dogs (as i'm a dog groomer) ...sorry for going off there!!! I do have treats when I go to classes but I will try the treats when im out with him, that does sound great, but boy, when he sees a cat I have to brace myself.   That is the only thing what gets me down and also he does love his food, I have to remove any morsle of any food in the kitchen as he'll be on the worktops and in the bin!.  But isn't hard work training them AND us? but we love it don't we! you seem to have a lovely dog and you clearly understand him together with having lots of patience. I have a partner and 2 young children who also follow ceaser's way (in a way!) but now i'll have a couple of treats on me when i'm out, thanx for mentioning that - silly me I should have thought of giving treats in the first place it may have been easier for me now thinking about it!! xx

Attempts to overcome a dog terrified of the sound of a toaster "popping" so advocates unplugging same and chasing dog throughout the house until eventually trapped under a table while repeatedly "popping" the toaster in its face ..... hmm, will give that one a miss.

Doesn't believe in verbal or physical praise for the dog exhibiting desired behaviour - owner remaining calm and ignoring it is sufficient reward ... hmm, another one to miss methinks

Solves pulling, lunging, fearful behaviour towards outside noises or stimmuli by using prong collars - nope, don't fancy that technique either

This could take some time - in short, I'm no fan ;)

As well as a Newfie, I have a Rottweiler X who weighs in at over 50kg.  He used to the be the problem when a cat came into view and would wind my Newfie up even though she's not bothered by cats generally. With 2 such large dogs who are physically much stronger than me on the end of the lead, I have to be 100% in control.  I taught them a solid 'watch me' command using a clicker & treats which I use to get their attention.  It has saved me (and most probably them) from injury on a number of occasions.

If you've owned Newfies for 15 years then you'll know that they need patience, consistency and kindness and, as far as I have seen, Cesar Milan's methods fall very short of these in many instances (like in the horrific examples already given by Teri above :-()

I tend to agree with you, though I take on board what mastifflover says too.

I do think that Cesar has something of a natural ability with dogs (Ian Dunbar has even said so). However, there is so much you don't see in terms of editing that it is difficult to know exactly what has gone on. In a number of programmes there are sudden lead changes, although the sequence of events is being presented as more or less unbroken.

A recent one dealt with an (I think) aggressive Samoyed. Cesar put him in a crate and then leaned over him for a while, to show his dominance. Then Cesar said it was time to get the Samoyed out of the crate and put his hands into the crate with a lead. The camera then cut away and back to the crate and Cesar is standing, all smiley, with the Samoyed........ on a different lead? The inference is that this was a smooth operation where Cesar got the Samoyed out without a challenge. Go figure? I just wanted to know what had happened in the interim that would need a lead change.

I don't think anyone should be copying stuff from TV where real events are contorted to fit the agenda of the producers. The primary aim of these type of series is to entertain not to inform. But it is addictive TV, I watch! It's a modern fairytale with a happy ending.

UMm I have read the previous discussion with regard to Ceasre and I have mixed views. I do think some things work very well. What he does show is often problems are more with their owners ( which i am sure we would all agree with). I do use a few techniques and they do work, mainly to do with lead training and he has a natural ability, and understands dogs canine behaviour. Luckily with smaller dogs we do not have major behaviour problems. Apart from a cocker's recall - very much - wait a minute Im sniffing!!- Our breeder (border's breeder) told my OH to growl at Jake when he misbehaves this he has done from 8 weeks old and JAke lies down on his back and will not look OH in the eye!! Then he's fine again and calms down (he's 14 months old). We use a halti on Jake and he is very obidient for OH does ignor me a bit cause I cant throw a stick as far as OH. But in a way we deliberatly made Whistler my dog and Jake OH's. They went off on site about 6am and I may bump into them later, OH is a consultant and does visit a lot of sites and when its cool like today Jake is sat on the back seat in his seat belt! Will not go in the crate in the back anymore turns his nose up!!
I think my view is that Ceasre's tv show only shows part of the training, myself I do try some of his techniques and they work for us. Each to their own, but i also do use treats and I have stopped Whistler barking at the door by using a Dog Stop thing ( bit like a hand alarm) that stops his barking as he investigates what the hell the noise was! its worked. So if they work for you great, may not work for everyone.

His method isn't dog training as such - he is geared at the reahabilitation of dogs who otherwwise might have to be pts.

He actually advises against using his dominance methods without professional help.

To train a dog is very very easy - the proof of it is that even I can do it. The methods you use all depend on the type of dog you want and what fits your personality. If you want a rather flat droped robo dog you use punishment. Cesar is actually not infavour of punishing dogs and damaging their spirit, having read a lit of critisism of him I decided to read his books and you can tell he absolutely loves dogs and lives for them. He is an extremely gifted and talented guy within a very specialist field : which is to save unsavable dogs from death row due to faults in the way they've been treated rather then viewing the dog as being bad.. If you bring up a dog right you won't need to go there!

His methods are all about stopping bad unwanted behaviours.

Possitive training though is about teaching dogs what you want them to do rather then what not to do. There are heaps of easy to follow puppy/dog training books and magazines that ofer simple step by step training that will develop a good relationship between you sand the dog and make training all about having a lot of fun with your dog and they will work a treat .

Attempts to overcome a dog terrified of the sound of a toaster "popping" so advocates unplugging same and chasing dog throughout the house until eventually trapped under a table while repeatedly "popping" the toaster in its face ..... hmm, will give that one a miss.

Doesn't believe in verbal or physical praise for the dog exhibiting desired behaviour - owner remaining calm and ignoring it is sufficient reward ... hmm, another one to miss methinks

Solves pulling, lunging, fearful behaviour towards outside noises or stimmuli by using prong collars - nope, don't fancy that technique either

This could take some time - in short, I'm no fan 

Agree with Teri - I'd avoid him and his methods.

Good articles here:

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

and here, http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm regarding his methods.

It's like this -ALL training methods work on at least some dogs. They just work for different reasons. That's why bullies like Cesar Millan who use fear as a training method manage to get a following -oh, and being on telly doesn't hurt. (Now I do miss the rolleyes smiley!) But personally, I'd go for kind methods anytime as there always IS a choice.

And it has been proved that kind methods are MORE effective. Not to mention that it makes for happier dogs. Of my 3 current Malinois, the oldest (8) was trained using old fashioned methods, choke chain, punishment when doing wrong etc. The other two (2) were clicker trained. Guess which are the happiest? And which have learnt MORE in a quarter of the amount of time? And guess which dog will curl up and try to hide and look miserable if I ever shout for any reason (not even AT the dogs, but shout at the kids, shout because I've stubbed my toe, anything) and which two wag their tails and think its a new fun game?

and here, http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm regarding his methods.

Oh goodness -some of that brought tears to my eyes. The poor, poor dogs. But what an excellent link -have bookmarked it and will no doubt (sadly) get a lot of use out of it, passing it on to people.

Cesars methods are not all about flooding and physical dominance. He does advocate reward based training and stresses the importance of praise & reward, but it must be given at the right time. Like I said, my Mastiff responds fantastically to the calm assertive part and showering him with praise works wonders too.

I dont know what I think about the way Cesar will use flooding to overcome behaviours, but I do know that he knows more about dog behaviour than I could ever hope to. He has changed dog's behaviour without flooding - maybe he knows why the dog is acting that way, maybe be can tell when a dog is frightened as opossed to attention seeking or something??? I don't know, which is why I make sure I stay away from anything like that, when calm, assertive leadership with praise for wanted behavior doesn't work for me & my dogs, I get out more treats :)

My Mastiff pup is very precious to me, I would never do anything to frighten him or ruin the trust he has for me. He is very self assured though and will take advantage of any situation given the chance, Cesars methods have shown me how to stay in charge WITHOUT using force/punishment/physical stuff, a lot can be achieved with the right state of mind.

What cesar is saying isnt really anything new, i.e taking control & being pack leader, however his ways of enforcing it are quite contraversial.
A lot of training is common sense, however, i would never attempt any of his methods as they seem far too harsh & something that shouldnt be "copied" from the TV. I think the best way for something other than the basic training, is to get advice from the professionals & let them look at your animal, work out the best way to deal with it and give you a structured training programme based on what they have seen, as well as showing you the correct way to go about it.
Training the dog badly or doing it wrong could have catastrophic consequences and as someone has said they followed the methods of C.M and got it wrong, that dog was destroyed

It quite clearly states on his programmes, do not use these techniques without expert help. I have found him saving PTS case using harsh and last resort methods, but nervous dogs he has made so much worse.

I too beleive in calm leadership skills, but I would find a stimulating training club too.

I think the one that really made me think twice about him was when he visited a rescue centre in Mexico. Amongst the pack of dogs there was a tiny dog that refused to interact with the others or to really move. I instantly thought, that little dog is ill.

Cesar took it back to his pack and forced it to interact with the other dogs, holding up its tail so the other dogs could sniff it, and allowing it to be repeatedly nudged by one of the bitches, who was clearly perturbed by the little animal. No change in the little dog at all, it looked severely depressed. All the while Cesar was grinning at the camera and saying words to the effect of look, you see it's working.

This went on for some 15 minutes, at least that was what was flashed up by the producers as an aston. My bet is it was much longer.

At the end of the programme they slipped in that the little dog had died, it had severe liver failure.

Of course everyone makes mistakes but that dog should have been checked first and then subjected to a bit of Cesar canine psychology. He was way off base in his assessment and I think this is one illustration of how the agenda of the programme obstructed not only his common sense but the welfare of the animal.

This programme is hilarious (sorry I hope that doesn't offend anyone). I mean, him rollerblading with all the dogs pulling him is the cheesiest thing on the planet  - I wouldn't trust any of his methods  (okay I'll admit to saying the occasional tssssh - for a laugh ) but it does make great TV. - I can't believe anyone takes him seriously or attempts his training methods.

freelancer:thats really sad. how awful that someone who claims to know so much about dogs and psychology couldnt pick up that this poor little dog was ill and spent his last few days being subjected to that.
I am so glad that i dont watch it

The only thing I agree with is that he seems to be an advocate of physical and (sometimes) mental exercise in order to help combat some problems.
The rest of the techniques I don't like from what I've seen - e.g. slapping a dog for 45 mins to break its fixation, dragging a dog into a car with a pinch and prong collar etc - not my cup of tea at all.

I saw the episode with the little dog - very sad :(

The full story of the rescue Chinese Crested was that it could only be walked on it's front legs-this should have rung warning bells & added to the non interaction should have resulted in a veterinary assessment.

Instead what happened was CM took the dog back with him & kept it for a month, subjecting it to enforce"swimming"in a washing up bowl & being pushed around by nearly all his dogs.

After a month & no improvement finally it was taken to a vet, who found it had a serious neurological condition, was totally blind & was in the end stages of liver failure ! The poor thing was then shipped back to the rescue where sadly it died shortly afterwards

The fact that neither the rescue nor CM bothered to seek veterninary assessment for so long, simply sums up what I think about this "dog whisperer"

I have to say I don't like any of his techniques but I do watch his programs so when people say how great he is I can talk knowledgeably about his techniques and why I don't like them.

The first thing I would say is that after reading Turid Rugaas' book I gained a lot of insight into the stress responses that dogs give off (so much so that my dissertation this year is using behavioural observation to determine the stress in dogs). I then started to watch his programs with the sound off. I found it really disconcerting when the sound was on because you have him saying "see", "there", and "good" when I could see no good behaviour from the dogs what so ever.

With the sound off you can really concentrate on what is happening. His "touches" are not soft at all but really quite hard and you can see the dogs flinch and be pushed side ways when he uses them. Looking at the dogs you can see so many calming signals it is horrible. A lot of the dogs just "shut down" by the end which is when he says the behaviour is fixed. The dogs never look at him. They are constantly looking alerted with dilated pupils and most commonly you see many licking their lips and yawning (both big signs of stress).

I always think that a good trainer doesn't push the dogs to aggression. Almost every single aggression case he takes on he gets bitten by.

Personally if a dog is so aggressive that it needs punishment to stop it from performing the aggression is NOT a safe dog to have in public. This is my opinion but if a dog with a really good temperament can flip into aggression when they are fearful or in pain why would you use fear and pain to try and train an already aggressive dog? It makes no sense to me.

On the walking on leads aspect of it. He doesn't teach the dogs anything. He uses the lead to again cause pain so the dog doesn't pull. If you press gently against your jaw line just in the soft part below the ear lobe you can feel it is painful. This is the area on the dogs which he places a slip lead or prong collar. Not what I would say are kind techniques.

I do agree with dogs needing structure and a calm owner who is consistent in what they ask of their dog. I don't like to use the word leader as for me that makes people feel overly assertive of their animals.

This is just how I feel but perhaps next time just watch with out the sound and look for lip licking, yawning, lowering of posture, panting and looking away.

Anna

I like the 'calm assertive' bit but not the more physical things. I did see an episode where he helped a severely disturbed dog who was an ex-lab trials dog and his actions there (going in backwards so as NOT to overwhelm the dog) were totally different from his usual manner, very nice to see.

One of the alarming things you notice when you watch most of these dog training programmes is how little exercise many of these 'problem' dogs get.

Walking with your dog is not only good for both of you but a lovely way to spend time together.

I'd chew the bloomin' furniture or bite the kids if I was stuck in the house all day every day!!!  Wouldn't you?

The majority of the dogs he sees are not exercised at all, and you don't need rocket science or behavioural diplomas to work that out!

> I like the 'calm assertive' bit but not the more physical things. I did see an episode where he helped a severely disturbed dog who was an ex-lab trials dog and his actions there (going in backwards so as NOT to overwhelm the dog) were totally different from his usual manner, very nice to see.

that episode was fantastic, it just goes to prove how good Cesar really is, he accomplished in a few moments what the owners had be tyring to do for years - show the dog it nolonger needed to fear them. It does make me think though, how much of his harsh approaches are for the sake of quick results in front of a camera.

The full story of the rescue Chinese Crested was that it could only be walked on it's front legs-this should have rung warning bells & added to the non interaction should have resulted in a veterinary assessment.

Instead what happened was CM took the dog back with him & kept it for a month, subjecting it to enforce"swimming"in a washing up bowl & being pushed around by nearly all his dogs.

After a month & no improvement finally it was taken to a vet, who found it had a serious neurological condition, was totally blind & was in the end stages of liver failure ! The poor thing was then shipped back to the rescue where sadly it died shortly afterwards

The fact that neither the rescue nor CM bothered to seek veterninary assessment for so long, simply sums up what I think about this "dog whisperer"

Just quoting that post in full as I think it's very important.

There was no excuse for this mistake, except possibly ignorance, and as CM set himself up as an expert, there isn't really an excuse here.

The little dog went through an extremely stressful (I'd suggest extremely frightening) time, during which it was subjected to all sorts in an effort to get it sorted out.
Most experienced dog people would have realised something was very wrong. An experienced behaviourist certainly would,  and would be discussing the case with a good vet.

IMO just this one episode should have had him off our tvs and any dog lover should not frankly be supporting him. This is obviously just my view, but I feel very strongly
about this sort  of thing. How can we just shrug it off and say "yes but..."

We should be clamouring for his departure from tv never to be seen again, banished in disgrace.

A vet is always the first port of call if there is any doubt whatsoever. The fact that CM did not get the dog vet checked immediately is appalling.
He has set himself up as an expert. He should not be making such basic mistakes as this with a dog paying the price.

newfiedays, have you had chance to try distraction with treats yet, when your dog sees a cat?

When I started using that method for Busters pulling to greet people, I used cheese. I always carried plain old dog treats for reward, so the cheese was something extra special in Busters eyes - well worth paying attention too!

> When I started using that method for Busters pulling to greet people, I used cheese. I always carried plain old dog treats for reward, so the cheese was something extra special in Busters eyes - well worth paying attention too!

I do hope that you're not claiming that as a CM method! Common sense has been around for as long as man has been domesticating dogs.

Common sense may have been around since time began but sadly, not everyone possesses it. Neither do they have Dog sense. 

> I do hope that you're not claiming that as a CM method! Common sense has been around for as long as man has been domesticating dogs.

No, I am not claiming it to be a Cesar method. I don't think there is any need to imply I lack common sense either. Cesar would reccomend a jerk on the lead and Turid Rugass reccomends changing direction. I decided to use treats myself, I am not asking for appreciation or suggesting I found the method in any body elses repotoir, I am simply sharing a method that worked wonders for my dog in an attemp to help a fellow dog owner, rather than just slate other people.

And wasn't it Ian Dunbarr that brought us lure and reward training??

ETA: 'that method' reffered to an earlier post of mine, where I told how I used the distraction & reward of treats.

Lindsay said

>IMO just this one episode should have had him off our tvs and any dog lover should not frankly be supporting him. This is obviously just my view, but I feel very strongly about this sort  of thing. How can we just shrug it off and say "yes but..."

>We should be clamouring for his departure from tv never to be seen again, banished in disgrace

I couldn't agree more :( :( :(  I didn't see this episode (can't bring myself to watch him now) but that poor little dog's fate was horrific and I can't see how anyone could stand by the man or his methods after something like that happening.

I didn't think my opinion of him could be lowered further - I was wrong

Supervisla said

> but perhaps next time just watch with out the sound and look for lip licking, yawning, lowering of posture, panting and looking away.

I think that's a very valid point Anna - it's so easy to watch simply what he's  doing (highly edited of course) and listen to his supposedly "magical words" that most people wont really be looking at the dogs' body language - only the end result, i.e. has it stopped barking/lunging/growling/stealing or whatever.

Teri :(

> And wasn't it Ian Dunbarr that brought us lure and reward training??

Oh please ....... People have been training animals by reward since cave-dwelling days. Now it's another 'Celeb Trainer' who needed to tell us what we've known for years.... we all respond to reward.The first thing I teach all dogs, my clients or my own, is "watch Me" and I've been doing that for decades. Dog trainers the length and breadth of the country have been training like this since before there were TV trainers or in fact TVs!
IMO When it comes to these Celebs - some of them talk some sense, some talk a little sense and a few just like to dress up and get on the telly....but all of them are there to make lots of money.

I have only ever seen two episodes of his show, neither dog was terrible or aggressive, but he just introduced routine and exercise, which is of course a good thing. I cant believe the toaster popping thing i havent seen it, but can imagine the scenario from how you have described it. The dog should have bit his face off and rightly so. I believe and this is how i train my dogs with reward and praise, i by example im a good natural leader and the dogs never have to challenge me with that never have had dominance issues, i believe in some theories of pack behaviour but non of this alpha roll nonsense, we all gel together like a good family pack, they know their place. I ignore naughty behaviour, (its never bad behaviour, the are not aggressive just cheeky) get over excited when i come home so i ignore them until they calm down stop jumping up and i dont speak to them ask my guests not to either or give them eye contact, once they have calmed down a sit and they get a pat and a treat. My Dogues dont respond to negative behaviour either it wouldnt get me anywhere.   Ive just started with clicker training, gives us all something to do after walks and they enjoy it, recommend it to anyone that has a highly sprung dog.

>> And wasn't it Ian Dunbarr that brought us lure and reward training??
> Oh please ....... People have been training animals by reward since cave-dwelling days. Now it's another 'Celeb Trainer' who needed to tell us what we've known for years.... we all respond to reward.The first thing I teach all dogs, my clients or my own, is "watch Me" and I've been doing that for decades.

In other words then, reward based training (as in that recomended by Ian Dunbar), is nothing different to how cave men treated dogs, in which case there really is no need for trainers - they must be all out to line there pockets by selling information a cave man figured out??

I am not suprised at Cesar getting a slating, his methods are very controversial, but I am very suprised at Ian Dunbar getting a public forum 'dissing' - a man who apparantly has 'revolutionised' dog-training, by bringing a 'hands-off' approach!!!!

I obviously have much to learn. The respected trainers like Dunbar & Rugass are obvioulsy just capitalizing on cave-man methods, if that's the case, I don't know what to think about relative 'small time' trainers! this is sarcasm

> And wasn't it Ian Dunbarr that brought us lure and reward training??

Oh please ....... People have been training animals by reward since cave-dwelling days. Now it's another 'Celeb Trainer' who needed to tell us what we've known for years.... we all respond to reward.The first thing I teach all dogs, my clients or my own, is "watch Me" and I've been doing that for decades. Dog trainers the length and breadth of the country have been training like this since before there were TV trainers or in fact TVs!
IMO When it comes to these Celebs - some of them talk some sense, some talk a little sense and a few just like to dress up and get on the telly....but all of them are there to make lots of money.

Ian Dunbar was pretty revolutionary in that much previous training had been pretty harsh and much based on military methods - Koehler, Most etc.
He brought the concept of early puppy training and socialisation to the dog world :)
I am sure over the centuries people have used rewards but very often, historically, most of what is documented appears to be based more around
using harsher  or very firm methods. Not all bad but not always easy on the dog either.
I think these days we don't get dog trainers on tv like we used to - they all have to have some kind of crazy or outstanding characteristic, pretty much!!
Part of the dumbing down we've sadly gotten used to.

.

> He brought the concept of early puppy training and socialisation to the dog world :-)

Before Dunbar, it was the norm to leave training until the pup had reached 6 months, wasn't it? That is something hard to imagine now-adays.

>I think these days we don't get dog trainers on tv like we used to - they all have to have some kind of crazy or outstanding characteristic, pretty much!! Part of the dumbing down we've sadly gotten used to.

It is a shame, allthough I am a Cesar fan (I don't agree with the harsh stuff), it would be fantastic for people to see that training is not all about pushing/shoving and physical force. A reward-based training slot on the TV would really help people (and a lot of dogs). I think the only programme on is Dog Borstal, but again that is about changing bad behviour, if there was a show that could demonstrate to people how to raise a pup with the right training in the first place there would be many more happy dogs & owners.
I think TV shows are more influential than training classes, because people can see the end result and so maybe are more inclined to put in the effort. If they could see how easy and fun it is to train with treats & praise there would be plenty of people willing to copy. That (IMO) is why Cesar's shows are so successfull, there are dramatic results shown, people don't realise they can be achieved without force :(

> but I am very suprised at Ian Dunbar getting a public forum 'dissing'

So am I, even Ian would not claim that he 'invented lure and reward' techniques.I think he is best described as bringing canine behaviorism to the general public. His book 'Think Dog' was ground breaking in that it was aimed at the pet market with problem solving solutions. Most of which, the author himself might well say, are common sense. IMO most dog owners are not stupid but too lazy to put in the work and are looking for the 'magic spell' to solve their problems.

> reward based training (as in that recomended by Ian Dunbar), is nothing different to how cave men treated dogs,

No in the hands of the most successful ones, not much I suspect. Nuts and bolts perhaps but the principle is probably the same, a symbiotic relationship based on trust and the provision of the things that drive them. I make their life better (I hope) and they reciprocate by behaving in a domesticated way.
The comment on "small time trainers" I wont respond to as you don't know who I am and I don't care for you to.
Suffice to say that if one has to be on telly to be qualified to train other peoples dogs, then I've been training for decades under false pretences.
As my mother likes to say ( and she's been breeding and training dogs since the 50's) "there's nothing new under the sun -just that some are slower to see it".

> So am I, even Ian would not claim that he 'invented lure and reward' techniques.

"Dr. Dunbar's unique lure/reward, off-leash training techniques provided a delightful alternative to inane and inhumane leash jerking."

This is a claim on his dog-training site, not a claim to invention, but (as slow as I am) 'unique' tends to suggest the lure & rewards methods were not practised prior to Dunbar.

>The comment on "small time trainers" I wont respond to as you don't know who I am and I don't care for you to.

You have taken 'small time' out of context, it was not said derogatory, I said something along the lines of relative small time, meaning small time in comparison to to the likes of world famous trainers ie Dunbar and Rugass.

> "Dr. Dunbar's unique lure/reward, off-leash training techniques provided a delightful alternative to inane and inhumane leash jerking."
>
> This is a claim on his dog-training site, not a claim to invention, but (as slow as I am) 'unique' tends to suggest the lure & rewards methods were not practised prior to Dunbar.

Ian's lure/reward, off leash training techniques are different to the ones I use(& I was taught these way back in 1965 !!)& they were unique in the USA/Canada when he first started using them & TBH this was at a time when most training was using the bullying techniques seen in CM's programs & chokers & negative methods were the norm.

If you have a look at a certain"behaviourist's"site here in the UK & in her books-she actually claims that she invented reward training in the 1990s !!!!

> You have taken 'small time' out of context, it was not said derogatory, I said something along the lines of relative small time, meaning small time in comparison to to the likes of world famous trainers ie Dunbar and Rugass.

I was trained by a small time trainer & consider myself a small time trainer as well.

There are lots of people in Obedience who have been around from the 1960s too & their methods have changed from compulsion to lure & reward & some have developed their own unique techniques & there are also a good few who still train the same way they did with chokers etc !

> world famous trainers ie Dunbar and Rugass

But world famous to who?  I think most of the family pet owning public in the UK have heard of just TV trainers - so, decades ago, Barbara Woodhouse and now the likes of her that's into the black PVC (name escapes me :-D ) and with satellite TV the likes of Caesar Milan :(

Sadly there will be hundreds of families watching these types of programmes, and taking the least appropriate measures to work on what they may wrongly assess to be their dogs' problem(s) - IOW see something as a quick fix which (a) was normal dog behaviour and didn't need fixing and (b) was something they've neglected to use basic training for at the appropriate time - like pulling, failing to recall, resource guarding.

I think tooolz has made some very valid points re training techniques which are common sense and have been used by caring owners and professional trainers for donkeys years.  The difference nowadays IMO is that some "behaviourists" can make so much more money - whereas good trainers work quietly away in the background, get great results but don't make interesting TV.

> This is a claim on his dog-training site, not a claim to invention, but (as slow as I am) 'unique' tends to suggest the lure & rewards methods were not practised prior to Dunbar.

>provided a delightful alternative doesn't claim ownership of a technique.I would think dogs walking on leads would provide a delightful alternative to Paris Hilton's method of taking her dogs out. 

One can claim anything but I can assure you that not all dog trainers were working with negative re-inforcement techniques before tv trainers. Plenty of Joe Public were influenced by another TV trainer Mrs Woodhouse. We laughed at her then I can assure you and many of us cringed when dog owners came to classes demonstrating her OTT style.
Apparently I had sussed out by the time I was a toddler how to move large muscular dogs to where I wanted them to go by waving my rusk under their noses (so Mum tells me) and I've never had a tv show but I saw what worked and brow-beating large boistrous dogs doesn't and never has. Operant conditioning in action I would say.

> brow-beating large boistrous dogs doesn't and never has.

You say this as if it is something I do, when I have clearly stated the way I train my Mastiff (most defiantely large & boistrous), is by treats & praise, I wouldn't dream of being harsh or even jerking his lead, even the way people parade thier dogs around the rings at Crufts is harsh in compariosn to how I treat my dog.
i am lucky enough to work from home, wich means I have spent nearly every 1 of my dogs waking hours with him, I have put the effort into finding out his motivation in different situations, I have put the effort into building a fantastic bond of trust bewteen us, I don't need to shout, push,shove,jerk or anything like that, a whisper, nod or handsignal and he knows what to do, this takes time effort & patience not bullying tactics, and I don't like the implication that I am a bully to my dog.

I find it quite strange that for somebody with so much experience in dog training, you have felt the need to have digs at me, all becasue I offered some help to the OP, which turns out to be the same method that you use, lure & reward.

> You say this as if it is something I do

Strange as it might seem I didn't give what breed you had a you a minutes thought and was entirely refering to my own large muscular dogs ( see avatar)  namely our family of Boxers stretching back to before I was born.
I don't know how you treat your dogs and I wasn't refering to them in our debate. I was, however, refering to opinions held and then related over an open forum - stating sucess with a celeb trainer's methods.
Many progressive trainers abhor 'razzle dazzle- quick fix for the camera' methods and fear for the safety of the owners and feel pity for the dogs.
You may have cherry-picked the kinder elements of a certain trainer but many will take on the method wholesale including terrorising and brow-beating.
I hope that explains why some small-scale, dedicated trainers hold the view we are expressing and one we have long held.

Before Dunbar, it was the norm to leave training until the pup had reached 6 months, wasn't it? That is something hard to imagine now-adays.

Yes, I believe it was because pups were considered not physically able to cope with the training before then. It seems kind of odd now, doesn't it?