I'm new at the whole breeding thing. My pug is ckc registered and is pretty much the perfect pug in every aspect. I want to breed her, not for the money because i know it costs more than i'd make, but to keep her bloodline going. She is about to go into her first heat and i just wanted to know what heat or how old she should be before we breed her. Also, she is nine months old and has yet to go into her first heat. Should i be worried about this or is she just a late bloomer?

Are you in contact with her breeder?
She should be able to give you the help and information that you need.

how do you know she is perfect? you need to show her first. dont you belong to a breed club? surely they have ethical rules about the best age to breed? you could not only not make money but lose a huge amount- pugs often need c sections and babies are hard to rear- many of them die

There's no such thing as the perfect dog especially if you understand conformation but secondly there's plenty of 'show' dogs out there that are far from perfect being bred from because the owner's don't understand basic conformation.

9 months is ok for first season for msot breeds i think then they normally regulate to around every 6 months BUT every dog is different and some will have them more frequent others less.

I dont know about pugs but the norm is not to breed until around the 2yr mark (not sure if the toy group breed a little earlier) and that way you'll be able to see how she is maturing and if she's still a good as you think she is now.

You could also get going with showing between now and then, this will also give you an idea if she's good enough to breed from and you can look out for the stud at the same time.

Hi and nice to see you on the forum and asking for information about breeding.  Your breed can be a somewhat particular one with regard to breeding.  They are not so easy let's say.  However to answer your first question about the age of her first breeding, pug breeders and most toy breeders breed before 2 years of age but not before 18 months.  My youngest girl was bred at 22 months which meant actually that when she gave birth she was at the 2 year old mark.

Regarding her first heat, I would worry so much.  It is completely normal even if she had her first season at 9 months.  One of mine had her first at 10 months and then her next 8 months later.  The girl who I bred at 22 months was also almost the same, having also had her first season after giving birth 7 months later.  IT all varies a little, just like women I would say.

Regarding breeding, as I said, pugs are not the easiest to breed.  And this for various reasons.  They can have difficulty giving birth and may need a C Section.  This is because pug puppies have a very big head and the mothers can have problems passing them.  Also as they are a small breed they can also have small litters - also only one puppy at times.  This can cause problems with inertia as one puppy may not be enough to get things going when the time arrives.  Then there are the problems with feeding.  Pugs are not the best of mothers or at least some of them and they may take no interest in the puppies.  Then there are the general aspects of breeding to be  taken into consideration - the long hours and hard work which goes on for months.  Sometimes from the minute your bitch becomes pregnant. 

Speak to your breeder and to others regarding breeding to.  It is something which needs to be very carefully considered and a thing which brings a lot of hard work and stress.  It can also be very rewarding though.

pugs often need c sections and babies are hard to rear- many of them die

There isn't any difference in the amount of pug puppy deaths in comparison to other dog breeds.  They are however not difficult to rear.   The fact that they can require C Sections is true but have to say that this is another reason why they are bred before the two years as in this way their anatomy is still somewhat flexible for a first time birth.  I know many pug breeders but know very few who have required to organise C sections.

Welcome to the forum :)

We have quite a few pug breeders and owners on the forum and I am sure they will all be able to advise you of the things you need to consider before breeding from your bitch. As someone else said, there are things that you need to consider with this particular breed. In the mean time you may like to check out the post at the top of this forum which I think you may find of some interest.

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/89071.html

Hi xIAMMJx welcome to the site, :-)

to keep her bloodline going.

You have obviously realised that breeding is not about money which is good to see so I commend you on that, but the job of keeping your bitches line going is down to the foundation breeder who has spent many years getting the best stock, showing and matching pairs together to get the best temperaments and breed standards that they can.

Good breeders of any breed will endorse their pups so that not just anyone can breed, throwing off a good line, more so than improving it. :-)

So have a check on your KC ownership paper you should find that your bitch is endorsed. Meaning that the breeder would need to lift the endorsement otherwise any pups your bitch produces will not be recognised by the KC, and the pups will be unregistered. A breeder will lift endorsements if you were to show that the bitch has done well in show, proving it to be of good standard, and no breeder is going to refuse a bitch doing well as it is a reflection on themselves.  The only time a breeder may refuse is if for instance there are already others in the line doing well and she does not wish for an overflow of her line at this time.

Breeders who wish to continue their line and are not doing so themselves may well ask a new owner to continue in the programme with them. :-)

If your pup is not endorsed this generally means that your pup has come from a pet to pet breeder, who knows no different and is not in control of the line or which dogs breed with which, which may lead to the line slipping via looks, build or temperament, depending on how many generations of pet to pet breeding have gone on.

Even so if this were the case, it does not mean that your pup is not of show quality and a good breeding bitch, but you should prove this by showing her and doing well, and getting advice from those in the show world as to which stud dogs are good to use, and would match your line, then to keep her bloodline going is a valid reason to breed if she should do very well in the show world.

This is the way that things should be done, but not always is.

I'm wonder if the OP is abroad as they mentioned "ckc" registration -never heard of that.

They are in America, I did think perhaps she meant AKC?  May be wrong though. :-)

Canadian, I assumed.

M.

I think she means Canadian Kennel Club which usually means that there are no endorsements.  Not so sure but think that UK Kennel Club is the only one who does endorsements for breeding stock.

Could be Continental Kennel club in which case there definatly would be no endorsements..

http://www.wonderpuppy.net/kc.htm#kclinks

i was told by pug breeder that you often lose 25% of pups- much higher than normal breeds and they often fade and die when older, not always  at birth

i was told by pug breeder that you often lose 25% of pups- much higher than normal breeds and they often fade and die when older, not always  at birth

Need to be honest.  I am a breeder and have also many breeder friends.  I have never lost any and the people who I know who are breeders have also lost only a few in many years.  25% could be right though bearing in mind that the average litter size for pugs is 3.  So to arrive at 25% its not so difficult.  Haven't ever heard of them fading and die when older.  Any which I have heard of have been the same as average puppies - i.e. during the first few weeks - most during the first days.

I have a pug.  People keep pestering me, asking me when im going to breed from her, and although i will at some point, i do admit that i have been putting it off!!

I dont think its right to make out that pugs are no more difficult to breed than other dogs, cos thats just not right.  I've not bred them myself, but know a lot of good breeders in the UK and overseas and although the majority of their whelpings go ok, a few dont.  I have heard horror stories.  Mum giving birth to pups fine, then a few days later all of them (mum included!!!) dying.  Not to mention one particularly sad story of a man who was having his first litter of pugs and panicked about the panting and pushing and no pups for a while (they can take a long time to get started) so he took her to the vet and the vet in all his wisdom decided to give her a c-section.  Mum died under the anaesthetic.  Stupid vet put her under with her heart rate racing and she just died!!!

Also pugs are not always very maternal.  I've heard of several litters just in the last couple of years having to be handreared mostly because mum wasn't really interested.  Apparently if you sit mum in the box and put the pups on her and pretty much hold her there she will feed them... But they wont voluntarily do it.

The worst i've heard was a few years ago, and a very good, respected breeder in this country lost a pup cos the bitch dug through it - literally!!  They think she was just digging up her bedding and either didnt notice the puppy or didnt care...

So although pug breeding can go fine, it is certainly not something to be taken lightly!!!  And i would say leave the breeding to those who know what they are doing, with dogs who are shown and have been proven to be good examples of the breed.  Im sure the bitch is a lovely pet, so i wouldnt risk anything happening to her for the sake of a litter or if you do decide to go ahead, please find a local breeder who is experienced and can be on call to help you!

> I have a pug.  People keep pestering me, asking me when im going to breed from her, and although i will at some point, i do admit that i have been putting it off!!
>

out of interest then jess why are you planning on breeding? you seem deeply unkeen on the idea and aquiring a new pup rather than breeding one is a damn site easier. (not suggesting you should just asking why since you seem rather against the idea)

My dog is very nice Astarte and has done very, very well.  Im just starting out in pugs and what i would like in, say, ten years time, is to have my "line" from my current girl.  She is a beautiful little girl and i dont think i could get much better as a 'foundation bitch'.  I will have a litter from her, but it does worry me, hence why i will make sure i have all the help i can get!

I know exactly what you are saying Jess - You have managed (you jammy thing) to get a fantastic show girl right at the beginning of your involvement with Pugs when you are still learning about them. Therein lies the dilemma - to breed or not to breed.

I myself have had my first Pug litter after much thought and consideration and it was with the full support from my own girl's breeder who is I might add, totally there for me and is happy to share with me all of her hard earned knowledge to help mum and babies. She was at the end of the phone 24/7 and I am completely indebted to her.  I agree Pugs are NOT EASY to breed and are not for the faint hearted,

However, I have seen your girl Jess and she is gorgeous, I would take her home tomorrow:-)

Trust me Ash, the way she is behaving today you can have her! lol

I have tonsilitis AND glandular fever so im feeling crap and she is being SO bad, thinks its great fun to jump on me and do her wild charging around the bed over me lol!  My other pug Lilah is being the perfect nurse, but with Gracie its all me me me!! She's so bad!!

But I have been lucky to get her and she is a lovely girl so it would be a shame not to breed from her.  The breeder has also been fantastic and has promised to help every step (she has been fab so far with all my questions, i dont know what i'd have done without her on call!!) and she has said that when Gracie is having pups she will be available 24/7 for anything i need which is great.  I wouldnt even consider breeding pugs (or any dogs for the first time, we have bred other breeds though) without someone on hand to help and give advice. 

I have made some space for her on the sofa - she would be welcome any time so don't forget:-)

My Black Pug girl is like that Jess, she is such a Diva - yesterday she had a 2 inch grass dart removed from her right nostril - the vet has taken a photo to show his colleagues as they won't believe him otherwise - he said it just kept on coming and he thought it would never end and can't believe something so big worked its way up there - I have kept the dart as a souvenir and to show my friend Elaine on Monday when we go down there.

I hope you feel better soon and if you do breed her - have you got any Stud dogs in mind?

> My Black Pug girl is like that Jess, she is such a Diva - yesterday she had a 2 inch grass dart removed from her right nostril - the vet has taken a photo to show his colleagues as they won't believe him otherwise - he said it just kept on coming and he thought it would never end and can't believe something so big worked its way up there - I have kept the dart as a souvenir and to show my friend Elaine on Monday when we go down there.

Oooh so sorry but that did make me giggle.  What did she do as the grass dart was removed - I imagine her eyes must have rolled!!

He had to give her a whiff of gas to sedate her so he could get a good grip on the dart without her wriggling - if it had come out of a Labrador nose then he could have understood it - he compared it to a human having a ruler up their nose (ouch).  She had a nose bleed afterwards but seems fine today - she has some antibiotics and anti inflams

I can quite imagine your pug getting that up her nose, they dont realise they are tiny with squishy faces at all! lol

We have a stud dog sorted for this litter.  And if she has this one ok we will have one more from her using AI from an overseas dog.  But if not, she will be spayed after this one.  She has phantom pregnancies with every season so we will definately get her spayed as its just a nightmare.  She keeps trying to feed our labrador pups!!!!!

Oh, I am sorry that I laughed.  I hope she is her normal self soon :)

ah i see. well best of luck with it, better not struggle with it to long though! while we all have breeding horror stories when it comes too it most go ok or the breeds wouldn't survive. as long as you have a good mentor etc i'm sure you and your girl will do grand when the time comes.

Oh bless her - phantoms are a right pain in the rear and no fun for the girl or her owners - luckily so far none of my girls have had them and I hope  it remains so

Now you have me intrigued - so I don't upset admin, would you pm me privately to let me know who you plan to use on her?

Just had a peek at your girl she's lovely & an obviously showgirl ! not a breed I would have, but one i like as they are real characters A friend has one called Percy & he's hilarious at times

I couldn't possibly Ash, its a secret ;)

Moonmaiden - i waited twelve years to get my pug, i have wanted one so badly for so long! and im so pleased with both of my girls, they are a wonderful breed with such amazing characters!

ooooh a secret - It will have to be someone rather special me thinks?

I understand your coyness, so I won't press you further:-)

I agree with you they are wonderful and I wouldn't be without Pugs now even my OH is smitten - I can't wait to get a good show one myself as I am itching to get going. 

Do you show the pugs you have now?  Presumably i have met you at a show, is that where you saw Gracie?  I have to admit, sometimes people come and chat to me at shows and i have no clue who they are!lol  Im useless with faces.  If someone tells me their dogs name then i know who they are, but otherwise im rubbish!!  So i probably have had a good chat with you and not even realised lol!!

No I don't show yet, my girls are not "show quality"  but are sisters, daughters and granddaughters of Pugs doing/have done well in the ring and so am hoping that they will produce me something that I can show. They are nice enough however and so am hoping to improve on them.

I saw your girl at LKA last year and thought she was fantastic.   I only know one person well who shows and she is the breeder of my girls. She is giving me lots of help and advice etc:-)

if they are not show quaility then maybe you should not be breeding them?

have they been health tested?

Ahh, i see.  Thats why we breed, to improve on what we have :)  I cant wait to see what Gracie produces, im just worried about the risks in doing it lol.  Stressful.  Oh well, i dont have to worry about it for a while yet!!!

Luvpug - Unfortunately, over here no pugs have to be health tested before breeding as they do in America.  Some breeders test for hemi vertebrae but many do not.  Its a shame really as our other breed, labradors, go through very serious health testing before we breed from them. 

Luvpug - Unfortunately it is very difficult if not virtually impossible for any newbie to a breed to be offered a "Show Quality Dog" as the established breeders naturally want to keep all the best show babies for themselves or for their friends/other exhibitors in the breed.  Until a newbie can get experience and get themselves known a good one rarely comes there way.

My girls are well bred, are very healthy and though not good enough I feel to attend champ shows and get 1st, 2nd, placings haven't been hit with the ugly stick either and have no major faults. I have developed a very good relationship/friendship with their breeder who has many years experience in the breed and know if they were a bad example of the breed she would have 1. put endorsements on their paperwork before selling them as a pet only and 2. told me in no uncertain terms that I would be bringing shame to her good name by breeding from them.  I have her full support and she is guiding me.  On the ONE litter I have had I used a very good dog that is doing very well in the ring and was chosen due to his compatibility with my girl and his glorious good looks, colour and bone to produce what I hope is something special to start showing with:-)

My girls are however my babies and live the life of riley, they will not be over bred and will be retired immediately if any difficulties arise as their well being comes first.

Hi,
so the litter you have had you are pleased with?

the parents have been xrayed etc?
with no cleft palates or other genetic problems within your litter?

i know it sounds harsh but with a breed like ours there are lots of people breeding from "unsuitable stock"

I have had pugs now for twenty plus years and have seen the quaility drop beyond words.

Dont know pugs, BUT today I had to explain about breeding them!
Only in that an 11month pug puppy is about to be considered for surgery as he limps badly due to crumbly hips or something similar.
When some bright spark said..."well that is the trouble if you buy pedigree breed dogs, nothing ever happens to mongrels like that".
So I had to point out that decent breeders eliminate as best they can through selective breeding of health tested blood lines and it was more likely that indiscriminate breeding caused the problems. So if people wanted dogs they should research properly and be as selective as possible.

Karen

Crumbly hips??  Are you sure its not hemi vertebre??  Its a spinal deformity which affects the backend and makes them lose balance....    I have one with it and its not nice..

Though i have to admit, i've never heard of hip problems in pugs.  The pug club, nor the kennel club, advise hip or elbow scoring for pugs, although i believe it is done in america.

She has the boy on a pug diet as  he is overweight which is /was making it worse, and as he is so young this has to be carefully done too.
It is definatley an arthritic thing as a pharmacist was also involved in the conversation confirming the name of the drug.

Karen

Thats sad that he has arthritis at 11 months old.. Poor boy.  Was he from a proper show breeder or from a pet breeder (or puppy farmer?  Far too many of those churning out pugs!!)?

I would have expected if he was from a show breeder that they would have wanted to be involved with the treatment and should at the very least offer the owner some of the money back for the pug.  Sounds like its going to be expensive to fix!!

> Unfortunately it is very difficult if not virtually impossible for any newbie to a breed to be offered a "Show Quality Dog" as the established breeders naturally want to keep all the best show babies for themselves or for their friends/other exhibitors in the breed.  Until a newbie can get experience and get themselves known a good one rarely comes there way.

Ash, I would have pasted your whole post, because I totally agree with what you're saying.  I'm not new to breeding, as I started in the 70's, but I have had my latest breed for just over 3 years.  Agree strongly that nobody was going to sell me a top show quality bitch.  Why would they?  Unless they had them coming out of their ears.  But I spent a lot of time looking around before I bought a bitch from a well known exhibitor, who told me that she would make me a good brood bitch.  As he bred some superb foundation stock from her dam, I didn't doubt the breeder.  Having experience of dogs for donkeys years doesn't mean that I can't learn from people.  I too, have had a lot of support from my mentor of the new breed.  Like you, mine will never be overbred, as they are my much loved pets first.  Like you, I have used a very good dog on my foundation bitch (recommended by my mentor), and I've kept the litter.  Toy breed, only 2 pups, so hoping to show the dog, and hopefully breed from the bitch, with advice from my mentor.  While it would have been nice to have been sold a show winner, it will be lovely to breed my own for the show ring. 

Jess - looks like you're local to me, love the Lab pups!

> Though i have to admit, I've never heard of hip problems in pugs. 

If you look on this page http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html you will see that in the USA Pugs are rated as the second worst breed for hip status (only the bulldog is worse, and another breed rarely scored in UK).

Of the 364 x-rayed none were excellent (scoring 4 or less by our system), and 62.1% were dysplastic (over 25 total score based on our scoring system).

If the breed Establishment are not health testing maybe people new to the breed should start to do it, and shame them into it!

JeanSW- It seems we are in the same boat, my girls indeed come from a reputable show exhibitor who allowed me to have good "Brood" type bitches - it has also allowed me to learn about the breed and their particular care.  My mentor has a good reputation and to support me in my endeavour with poor quality dogs would only reflect badly on her own breeding and she has worked very hard in only breeding and breeding from good specimens.  I am also running on my two babies to see how they develop. I will then make a decision on their suitability as show, breeding or pet quality and will go from there.  Here's hoping that they are good enough and if not my Mentor allowing me to have something of "Show Quality" now I have shown my commitment.

Hello Ash

I repeat, was your litter free from Clefts?etc

Hello Luvpug - yes it was,  but can I add that clefts are not always a genetic problem but can occur due to a Vitamin deficiency in early pregnancy - folic acid I believe is a suggested preparation to give your bitch just before mating and in early pregnancy  and some fine clefts can also close on their own - I am sure someone will come along and correct me if I am wrong:-)  Just as there are now three discussions on hernias, one being a genetic problem another being an overzealous mum washing and tugging on the area and a third I recently came across that discussed "delayed closures" which can occur and are neither genetic or caused by trauma and can occur when you least expect it.

All any of us can do is our best and I will always use the best animals I can.  If I have any doubts as to their suitability for breeding then I won't breed from them.  I couldn't live with myself if I was producing animals that would live a life of pain and discomfort and would rather not  breed at all then perpetuate a problem.  My dogs are first and foremost my pets and I love them.

Sorry Ash,
I must be confusing you with someone else.

I am sure i was told that you have just hand raised two cleft puppies(and seen the photos) a boy and a girl?

> If you look on this page http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html you will see that in the USA Pugs are rated as the second worst breed for hip status (only the bulldog is worse, and another breed rarely scored in UK).
>

Barbara that is alarming, wonder why the breed club does not insist on the breeding stock at least being scored. I suppose being small they manage on hips less than satisfactory so no one has bothered to date.

When you consider the amount of pug crosses being bred it does not bode well for those poor designer dogs.

Hi Luvpug - my puppies have been vet checked at 8 weeks including their mouths and have been given a clean bill of health by him.  I hope this ends any unpleasantness