Just joined freecycle and had to join Yahoo, the new item heading the website is the police warning about yobs now using dogs to intimidate people, give us your mobile or I will set the dog on you. The picture was off a staffie!!
Its appalling to think a poor animal is being demonised, there should be a rule re buying staffies etc to good homes only. Yes I know puppy farms etc. I once got really annoyed that the new designed cats are being sold nutered, is it time we thought seriously about desexing a dog if sold to people that did not want to show or breed.
I happily have one full dog and 1 castrated, I am just opening a discussion, I am so distressed as my niece has a staffie with two babies and one on the way and he's a dream dog...

I've heard this is happening.  V. distressing!  They are such gentle, friendly loyal dogs.

I always think the owners and admirers of Staffies and one or two other breeds are condemned by media hype and misinformation. The Staffordshire Bull Terrier are a lovely breed and the breed that really causes the problem is Homo sapiens.

jeez.  They obviously don't know the breed that well then do they? 

Trouble is i imagine any breed of dog can be made aggressive if the owner trains it that way.

Actually I don't think we just just put it down to media hype and misinformation.

As I've stated on other threads, I live in the city and see these kind of dogs every day and I avoid them where I can. Yes, it is the owners who are at fault, but there can be no doubt that fighting and guarding breeds ( anything from Staffs and Pits to Akitas) are being purposely bred and trained for aggression, whether as pure breed or cross bred. I have in the past been unfortunate enough to own an aggressive terrier with serious behavioural problems and I was often approached by "young men" who wanted to know if they could use him or where they could get one. Alas after a great struggle he was PTS.

The dogs I see are left entire and often walked off lead. Every other teenage boy seems now to have a staffie pup or adult male trailing along, off lead, behind him, complete with spikey collar. If something goes awry I have seen the owners run. I keep seeing bitches with extended teats-obviously having had pups. It's always the same type of dog. I've seen innocent dogs attacked in the local park, with one of these beasts charging 500 yards towards their quarry, latching on and refusing to let go, the cries of the other dog are terrible. The owners of the attacking dog having done a runner. A month ago a local child was mauled and badly bitten by a staffie, loose in the street. The dog then disappeared into a house. So, in the city at least my city, the reports are pretty bang on.

I am not a staffie hater, my sister-in-law has a lovely bitch. But we cannot continue to kid ourselves about how serious this problem is.

> But we cannot continue to kid ourselves about how serious this problem is.

It is not the problem we were talking of, well I did not read it that way, it is the fact that the web site have chosen to talk about dogs used as weapons and chose a Staffie to illustrate this. To my way of thinking you would have to go a long way to find a breed that is more people friendly so why always the poor Staffie? If it is not the media then who is it that have and are continually pretending a Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a people dangerous dog. There are many purpose bred dogs that people call Staffordshire something or something Staffordshire but they are not pure bred Staffordshire Bull Terriers who are not to be feared any more and may be less than the Goldie up the road.

Sorry Nova,

perhaps I did not express myself clearly. Yes, the dogs are being used as weapons and they are being not only trained but bred to be used that way. Staffs, indeed many former fighting breeds, are also very people friendly. However, there is some evidence that unstable/vicious, even atypical, dogs are being bred from. They are still Staffs and assorted mixes, but very bad examples of the breed. Thus they are dog aggressive and sometimes more people aggressive too. This is what is so scary. 

It is rather as if Golden Retrievers known to have food aggression problems (we know this crops up as a problem within the breed, but is controlled) were selected and bred from and then this strain of Goldies started cropping up all over the place.

It is rather as if Golden Retrievers known to have food aggression problems (we know this crops up as a problem within the breed

Really?  I've had 4 Golden Retrievers and have never found this to be a problem.  Any dog can be food aggressive, don't think it is in any particular breed.

Think we will have to differ freelancerukuk - perhaps I have been lucky but I have never met a well-bred Staffie who has been anything but people friendly. There are exceptions in all breeds I just don't see why we have to pick on the Staffie.

It is rather as if Golden Retrievers known to have food aggression problems (we know this crops up as a problem within the breed, but is controlled)

I would  have to refute that claim too, never met a food aggressive GR ever!  And never heard of it being a breed trait.

The reason that the Stafford is chosen for these things, is who are the main group causing society problems? With bullying, mugging, threatening behaviour it is teenagers and under 25's being the main group, hanging around in gangs on street corners, (IMO their mothers should be dragging them all home by the ear, but that is by the by.) and unfortunately their chosen dog is the Staff, Staffs are the most popular dog for these bad apples, no question about it.

That is why our rescues are brimming with them and their crosses and that is why they are being shown as the weapons being touted, it is not the poor Staffs fault, but unfortunately it is a fact.

Agree with you Nova.  As the owner of 2 (and a half!) Staffs and having one previously (OK. prob. still not an expert!), I've never met a people aggressive Staff.  They're not nicknamed the "nanny dog" for nothing. 

Just clocked this news headline as well   http://uk.news.yahoo.com/skynews/20080612/tuk-gangs-use-dogs-instead-of-knives-45dbed5.htm

Nova,

I felt I'd been pretty clear. My point is these are not well bred Staffies, they are badly bred Staffies and Staffie crosses, deliberately badly bred to enhance bad traits. But they are still Staffies. Yes, it's a man made problem but how is an ordinary person meant to tell the difference between a well bred Staffie and a badly bred one? This is the reason why the breed is now being stigmatized.

Carrington,

It just so happens I have a food aggressive GD in my training class. Lovely family, lovely dog- but with an issue.  I chose the Goldie because Nova mentioned them in a former post and also because many behaviourists and trainers I have spoken to mention this breed as presenting more frequently with food issues than other breeds.

As you say, all breeds can have food issues, Goldies probably present more often because there are more of them and many live within families with kids , so people are more likely to try and get help.

My real point, however, was that you can take any breed and if you then deliberately choose to breed only from the dogs with aggression problems and sell them on to a ready market for aggressive dog ownership and they in turn follow suit, you are soon going to get that breed a bad reputation.

Yes, it is unfair, terribly unfair to all the decent, responsible Staff owners and to the many lovely dogs out there. As I said, I like the breed. But you can't say that something bad and dangerous that is going on is just media hype.

My real point, however, was that you can take any breed and if you then deliberately choose to breed only from the dogs with aggression problems and sell them on to a ready market for aggressive dog ownership and they in turn follow suit, you are soon going to get that breed a bad reputation.


Very, true,

Just as breeders try to breed out bad traits, it is just as easy to breed them in.

It is very odd, when anyone talks about dog aggression, even on the news recently, when Staffs were being newsworthy yet again, (sensationalised because noone famous died that day!) they always bring up the Golden Retriever!!! Not the Chocolate Labrador, or the snappy little JRs, always the GR!!! Why does this happen I wonder??? Lets hammer the Golden....again!!! Yes there are Goldens with dicey temperaments out there, of course there are, but lets keep a sense of proportion about it.  And if behaviourists are saying there is a food possissive issue with them they are talking c*** quite frankly. Because there is a food possessive issue with thousands and thousands of dogs of every different type of breed out there imaginable!! That is realisitic. And brought about by owners who cannot be bothered to do the leg work to find a good breeder or excellent rescue home, and put some hard work into their dogs training. Researching well before they got the dog as to what efforts were needed, and educating their children. No, thats too sensible! They want one and want one now! Look in the free ads and pick one up by tea time. Thats the reality of it.

As for dogs being used as weapons, there is nothing new there. They always have been for decades. Pitts, Rotts, Staff crosses by the worst type of criminals. I work in a deprived area and they breed Staffs like rabbits. So sad, poor souls don't stand a chance. Most of them are such nice dogs if they are in the right hands. As most Goldens are.

I have to say that over the last couple of days I have agreed with almost all that Freelancerukuk has posted. I am lucky enough to live in a particularly leafy suburb of London but in the last six to nine months I have been shocked at the number of young men wandering the streets with poorly bred staffs and even pit-type crosses, most off-lead, and all with little, if any control over their dogs. This is not an attempt to knock the breed, as I to have known many adorable staffs and recognise thay they are not people aggressive by nature. However the poor and irresponsible breeding/ crossing by unscrupulous individuals is what has lead us to this  place. At the weekend I was in Jolleyes, Enfield and as we parked I saw a large crowd gathering so as we entered I popped over to see what was going on... stunning huge puppy and the owner was proudly telling all who were gathering to look that it was an American Pit Bull, Great Dane cross. I have seen the adverts local to where I work advertsing openly for pit bull/ D De B crosses and these are not cheap, over £1000 .
One of my biggest issues is why the police are not doing something. I believed that it was illegal to breed from APB types in the UK, This phenomenon is mushrooming in London at an amazing rate and I see at least 2-3 of this type of dog being walked openly every day off lead which in itself is illegal...all dogs walked on the streets should have a collar to identfiy them, yet nothing is being done. Why??

I think its because its too big a problem to Police. It is in every street in every town, in every deprived area in every town. No ID's on owner, no ID on dog, by the time police dog van comes, both have gone, but oh there is 10 more in the next 2 streets. They simply do not have the man power.

But the hardest thing of all to take is the shocking things they do to these souls to make them aggressive. That is my concern. And it will never stop.

I've seen at least two pit mix type pups in my local park, young too, possibly not even 6 months, both covered in bite mark scars.

I tried to engage the owner of one of them in conversation. She said the pup was a rescue and so didn't know where it had come from. But she didn't seem to know much about the dog, or the breed and so I have my doubts as to whether she was telling the truth. I also wonder what kind of rescue would rehome a puppy in that state. The pup seemed very nervy too.

If these bullbreeds are so untrustworthy as you say Freelance why is my bitch stafford the most submissive dog in the world and is often bullied by other dogs bigger and smaller then her? mostly by dogs you would probably see as better breeds?
We were out on a walk only the other day with our 2 staffords and we were set upon by this crazy retriever dog who we had to litrally kick off, couldnt believe how a family pet could be brought up so badly to make it such an offensive dog and aggressive, I gave the owner a pice of my mind as well.
But the whole time it was happening my girl stafford was at my feet looking right into my eyes obeying my commands to 'watch' me while matt was getting rid of the dog and protecting our puppy, so not all staffords are covered on scars from attacking, sometimes its from being attacked by a breed we all see as perfect, but of course the staffy started it didnt it in your eyes or everyone elses who has been blinded and brainwashed by the media.

I am not a hoody or criminal and I own a stafford but why should I also be tarred with the same brush as the bad owners?

I hate it when people tar all staffords and pitbulls with the same brush, I was badly bitten by a springer spaniel when I was very young and yet I dont hate all springers, you have to take each dog on its own individual personality and merit, to tar all dogs of a breed with the same brush and speak bad of ones you havent even met is simply wrong and unjust to the highest point.

Rach85,
I can see that you are very angry after your experience. It's awful whenever a well behaved dog is set upon by one that is not trained or under control, or indeed, one that has problems. And, yes, of course any breed will throw up rogue dogs.

I'm nor sure from your post if you are implying that I am saying all Bull breeds are untrustworthy. If you are then please read my posts again. You will see that I am saying there is a growing problem in my area, the city, with purposely BADLY bred dogs, the majority of these being Staffies, pits or Staffie mixes.

Most that I see are also entire males, not bitches. I'm sure you'll agree that entire boys of almost any breed have to be watched more carefully around other entire boys, once they hit adolescence or reach maturity. I'm certain, from what I have observed, that these dogs are not properly supervised or controlled as they should be, the majority are off lead all of the time. They have been bred, deliberately to be walking timebombs. 

At the risk of repeating myself, may I say again, that I also know of many properly bred, good Staffies. I have also said that I like the breed, when it is bred as it should be for temperament.

My sister-in-law has a lovely Staffie bitch, She was bought, on my advice, from a reputable breeder and is everything one could wish for in the breed. She is also rock steady with other dogs. Her only vice, if you can call it that, is she used to play rather more boisterously and roughly than some of her other doggie friends like. But because she has a repsonsible owner, the play was supervised and stopped if it got out of hand. Accordingly she has learned to adapt to different types of dog and she is a gem.

So, I hope you see that I am not just being thoughtlessly critical of all Staffs and their owners.

The pups I was talking about were in response to Golden Lady who said how those dogs being badly bred are also being subjected to awful abuses. It is not often you come across pups covered in bite marks.

I know you were not implying that they are all untrustworthy but I see so many posts on here saying staffies are this and staffies are that and staffies are the worst breeds for trust etc and its so upsetting as anyone who has ever owned a stafford they will see they are so loving, loyal and steady with their temperaments its criminal to see so many good dogs being ruined by the scum that take them on and try to make them hard. :( :( :(

So freelance when ever I see a post that has the typical slandering of the stafford or cross breeds of staffords I will be there to defend them as its Blame The Deed Not The Breed. and that goes for crossbred staffords as well as if you say they are untrustworthy due to being crossbred then you could say that of every single cross breed in the world and people dont so I really wish people would just back off the stafford and let them live in peace.
Blame Deed Not Breed should be the last word about staffords and their negative media hype.

there is some evidence that unstable/vicious, even atypical, dogs are being bred from

With the risk of sounding critisising, is it possible you could point us in the direction of that evidence?
Do you mean with facts/figures freelanceruk?

The only dog my husband will not touch with a barge pole - he and his x wife had kennels is a dalmation, when I wanted one it was an emphatic no.. As he never says that to me I knew he hated them. It was the idea of the media reporting that a dog was the new "weapon" to be used in street crime I was concerned with and the use of a poor staffie, I am more concerned/interested in the view of de-sexing these dogs so if they do get tin the wrong hands they can't be breed willy nilly. Myself I would have a staffie tomorrow if he would let me have three dogs!!

Tessies Tracie,

Fair question. As I'm sure you know, because it's a growing problem that no one is sure how to deal with, the evidence is largely anecdoctal, born out of the experiences of dog wardens, police forces and other dog/crime agencies. I believe that the Dangerous Dog's Act is under scrutiny again and something may come out of that. However,off the top of my head, I recall that last year the RSPCA conducted a major undercover operation, uncovering dog fighting pits across Britain and getting information on those attending and their dogs. They found that youths, keen to breed the "best" fighting dogs were breeding existing fighting dogs with others known to have a bad temperament.

Whistler,

Aside from the dog fighting element I think it is true that dogs are being used as a weapon by the same unscrupulous types.

You are right, once we admit there is a problem the next step is what to do? I said before that I keep seeing bitches that look as though they are in pup or have recently had a litter, so there does seem to be a lot of breeding going on. The problem is unless you track down every dog owner you can't know if the breeding is responsible or not and what has been used. But, neutering is something that perhaps needs to be considered.

I would hazard a guess that bitches wandering around off lead, in the city, are perhaps not owned by the most responsible breeder. But, before I am shot down in flames, I know of other "good" dog owners who will walk their beautifully behaved animals off lead too. I just have a bit of a problem with dogs off lead.

 

Hi FreelancerUk,
Thank you for answering.
Do you mean crossbreeding is a growing problem?  And people of a certain type trying to use them as weapons?
Yes, the pitbull amnesty in Liverpool turned up quite a few fighting rings, weren't a lot of the dogs simply cross breeds deemed 'of type', and a lot were returned to their owners too?
Fighting dogs are as far as I'm aware are specifically bred for fighting each other, and any found to have human aggressive tendancies are a big no-no.  That's how it was in the olden days at least.
I guess the idiots who think they can breed a human aggressive dog are just mistreating them to try and make them that way.

Hi Tessies Tracey,

Yes, you are right on that. Old fighting dogs had to be steady to humans and the breeding of them was something of an (forgive me) art.

I think the really scary problem here is that these idiots now don't really know what they are doing. They want an aggressive dog to impress their friends, make them some money and protect them/ threaten other humans. These people don't deal in bluff, as the growing amount of stabbings etc.. shows. They'll do whatever it takes to get an all round aggressive animal and adding a rogue dog into the mix can get them a result more quickly than training them to be human aggressive. That set of genes, if selected for by aggressive trait, then makes its way out into yet more dogs. Idiot breeder may then sell dogs on outside of immediate dodgy circle to someone who just wants a pet.

But of course, they are also training them, keeping them shut away, letting them be attacked as pups and so on to guarantee results.

I do think crossbreeding is a growing problem, an earlier poster talked about pit/dane crosses. A huge problem is that to the untutored eye a Staff with a bit of Pit or something else, can just look like a Staff. And I would guess, that with all this mixing going on, there are people out there who think they have a pure Staff, when it's not!

My dog has two Staff x girlfriends who he adores. Both are Staff x whippets, but most people think they are Staffs.

to the untutored eye a Staff with a bit of Pit or something else, can just look like a Staff.

Thank goodness some of us know what we're looking at! :-)

Such a sad situation huh?

Ultimately though, I'd still say, humans are the animal to blame for all this.  Sadly is seems that a lot of dogs are suffering from it.
I don't know if you saw my post on another similar topic some time ago - my silly niece and boyfriend ended up with two Stafford crosses that could quite quite easily be deemed of pit type.  Not sure of their temperament as I have not seen them since pups, but there are some gullible people out there!
Thanks for replying.

Perhaps there needs to be some kind of positive ad campaign to rehabilitate the breed in the eyes of the public? Perhaps with stickers saying something like "Proper Staffs love you and your dog". If such a campaign led on temperament people might start to say anything that's dodgy is not a proper Staff?

I know lovely cross breeds would miss out but then you could award any dog with a good temperament honorary Staff status.

Sorry if the above seems a mad idea.

Totally mad! :-D
One of my Staffords doesn't like other dogs!!   Ooops!
But I do take your point :-)

TT

LOL. Yes, I knew 'twas mad as I wrote it and was waiting for someone to respond as you did!

Still, something needs to be done and perhaps others here can come up with something more workable and realistic!

I think it is a good idea, if we got staffs a "cuddly" identity yobs would not want them, its not a tough status symbol to own a peke is it?
ere i'll set my Jack russel on yah!! the problem is what to do! hence my original post. As a kid at boarding school we had a black & white cocker, bit everyone in sight. My cocker is so loving and is likely to lick you to death, its all down to homo sapiens to make or break a dog. Yes I do know breeding ect and with spaniels "rage syndrome". But I am sure that something can be done!!

Yeah, but I bet he/she loves people though!

Its like if all the pensioners started wearing hoods the hoodies wouldnt be seen as cool and it would stop lol.
Sadly there will always be idiots on this earth.

They sort of already have started compaigning like you say Freelance with the slogan' Deed not Breed' seems to hit home with most, but sadly not all :(

> I think its because its too big a problem to Police

I think you've hit the nail on the head Golden lady.
I was listening to the Jeremy Vine radio phone in about knife crime and a lad came on saying he was attacked in a park. His brother, hiding in the trees called the Police while it was going on. Their reply was that they didn't have enough man-power to intervene against a large number of youths with dogs and knives. So basically get on with it!!
The interesting thing was this young chap felt his only option for the future was to get himself a knife and/or a Staff or Pit.
So sad.

I would be interested to know where all these young people with SBT type dogs got the impression that they are the ideal dog to be seen with and thus "enhance" the hard image that they wish to project? Why did they choose this breed above others? There are plenty of dog breeds out there but it would seem that they don't see them as fitting their image so presumably the bull breeds were singled out for a reason?

that's the thing Whistler, the majority ARE bloomin' cuddly and daft with humans - totally.  I agree with the homo sapiens part of your sentence too! 

In response to Harley
I too would be interested as to why bull breeds were singled out? 
Is it the way they look?
i.e. the sometimes large head, large mouth?
I really don't know.

Yeah, but I bet he/she loves people though!
ADORES them.. with a passion... daft girl that she is!