Do you have too? Or any dog for that matter.

We want to show our boy as you all know, but I have been hearing some real horror stories about annual boosters that we give our pets as we have been ordered by vets to do, Im really starting to worry about whether its actully safe to do this every year when there is no real point unless dog has been exposed or has a medical problem so here are my questions...

Can a dog who isnt vaccinated yearly still be a show dog and stud dog?

Would you be happy to have a studding from a dog who had no yearly vaccinations?

And do show dogs have to be vaccinated (for things like kennel cough) because of being in a place where loads of dogs are, IE show ring.

This has really got me thinking because if we decided never to vaccinate our dogs apart from the 8-10 week old first set of jabs we would never be able to kennel our dog or take a training class as they require proof of vaccinations, seems were forced to do something which has killed so many dogs :(

Any thoughts and answers please?! :) :)

Mine only have the puppy vaccinations and their first boosters after losing a number of Pomeranian's years ago after their vaccinations.  I show mine, but do get friends and family in to look after them if I go away.

Mine only have the puppy vaccinations and their first boosters after losing a number of Pomeranian's years ago after their vaccinationS

Im so sorry to hear that :(
What has happened to vets nowadays? They were once a safe place to take our dogs and cats etc to be vaccinated and/or treated but now they have faulty or sometimes deadly vaccines (not all granted but 1 is enough) overcharge for treatment, give false and inaccurate info about bitches pregancy and spading/neutering, whats going on!!?? :(

But just to confirm, its OK to show a dog without needing vaccinations? And studding, is that OK as well?

>its OK to show a dog without needing vaccinations? And studding, is that OK as well?

Yes and yes.

Vaccination is a matter of personal choice.

Thank you JG thats really helpful.
Got to think now if we actully want to vaccinate or not annually, tough choice :(

i dont vaccinate either just give then there first jabs then when there a year old they go on to Ainsworths Dog Combo 30.c 

dawn
xx

I do the same as you Dawn, and have done for the past few years.

I have seen in one show schedule for an open show requesting that all dogs exhibited must be innoculated...
It was one to be held at Sky Blue but I can't remember which one...

They might request, but do they actually check?

I don't know as I didn't enter that show..so can't comment.

All of my dogs are innoculated and have their yearly boosters too.
I am aware that there are some that don't innoculate not even puppy & 1 booster.
They go the homeopathic route or some don't innoculate at all not even titre test their dogs
to see if they have protection.

Did not think most vets advise annual boosters now, well at least mine don't.

They do suggest pavo injectons at least every year as that gives a short lived imunity. You do not have to have everything in the booster, ask the vet I am sure if asked they will tell you the latest situation.

To answer the actual question no you don't have to have an annual booster for any reason at all except some kennels and some insurance.

I get mine done as we spend so much time at doggy events, breed shows, agility shows etc.  so are in close contact with a lot of dogs most weekends and at training during the week.  My vet doesnt booster everything every year, they do lepto every year and everything else every other year.

I show my dogs and they are all vaccinated yearly, I also get the kennel cough yearly vaccine just in case. Haven't had any problems yet, touch wood! :-)

Lucydogs ditto, have my two boostered and kennel cough just in case plus chip checked to see if thats still ok. Have a Border & Cocker Spaniel no ill effects noted?

Likewise here. I've had my dogs all boostered annually for the past 30-odd years (that's a lot of injections!) and none of them have ever had a problem.

Likewise here. I've had my dogs all boostered annually for the past 30-odd years (that's a lot of injections!) and none of them have ever had a problem

I appreciate what you're saying, but it's a bit lie saying 'well, I've smoked all my life and never got lung cancer', yet no-one would suggest smoking doesn't cause lung cancer.

>I've smoked all my life and never got lung cancer'

But you don't give boosters every day, do you? If you only smoked on one day a year the damage would be minimal.

But you don't give boosters every day, do you? If you only smoked on one day a year the damage would be minimal.

That's irrelevant. There is increasing evidence that boosting dogs every year is not only unneccessary, but can cause serious problems, even death. In the same way, there is evidence that smoking causes cancer. Smoking less might lessen the risk, just as boosting less frequently might lessen the risk, but the risk is still there all the same.

a booster jag is rather more potent than a ciggarette.

can i ask why you booster instead of titre test?

out of interest does anyone know why the vet drugs trade makes a vaccine that (claims) it needs boosters every year when our vaccines don't?

our eldest started getting strange spells after her boosters, loads of other people have probs as well. since then we've always used titre tests

I haven't routinely vaccinated since the early 1980s. I went to a vet who all that time ago was concerned about the number of bad reactions he was seeing to boosters(& in some cases to initial vax). He offered titre testing in co junction with a research group at a Vet School. My dogs all had titre levels that showed they did not need a vax & since then I have always titre tested before vaxing & to date I've never had a dog that needed boosting. My parents did not follow me down this route, until a lepto booster killed their Cavalier within 3 hours of it being given to him, he never came home from the vets after going for his booster, he started to be ill minutes after being vaxed & he had had a annual check up before the vax which revealed he was in tip top condition with a sound heart, three hours later he was dead of complete organ failure !

My research into reactions to vax has turned up that the Lepto vax causes the worst & most letal reactions. The only Vax my dogs have is their Rabies to keep up their Pet Passports

Do you mean me?

I don't routinely vaccinate, I titre test. So far I haven't needed to vaccinate. I don't titre or vacc for lepto though.

thats awful moonmaiden, and a scary warning

no, i replied to JG didn;t i? oops sorry! i was backing you up Jackson :)

I actually had one farm bred ISDS reg BC, whose mother had never had any vax, who never needed a vax in his life for any of the diseases you can vax against & to have vaxed him once let alone yearly could have pushed his immune system into overload. He never caught Kennel cough despite his lifelong companion contractiong it(who had actually been given the KC vaccine before I got him)

>can i ask why you booster instead of titre test?

Because I've never felt the need to do so.

I considered titre testing this year but then realised the boys would have to go into kennels so would need a booster anyway.

Some kennels (increasingly so) will take dogs who have been titre tested as immune.

the ones im using dont - yet, but they are perfect in every other way.

given the number of dogs who suffer negative reactions to boosters, above is one horrific example, and many others have been mentioned on the site so i'm wondering why you'd prefer boosters? (i'm not attacking you for this i'm genuinely just trying to understand)

titre tests are i understand much of a much cost wise and are harmless. worst comes to it you pay out for jabs as well if they come back with no immunity. the worst case senario for boosters i losing your dog, personally i prefer to avoid the worry, distress, guilt and broken heart.

>given the number of dogs who suffer negative reactions to boosters

The number with negative reactions, when compared to the number which are boostered, is actually very very small. In two years at work we've had two suspect reactions (one of which turned out to be a reaction to a foreign body, not the booster after all), the other very minor, but which was reported anyway.

where did you get your figures? i fancy a look at them as its an interesting subject

a negative reaction is rare but they do happen, frankly i'm not willing to put Tio at risk when there are other ways that keep him safe without being dangerous to him. titre tests and homeopathic methods sound better to me than something that can kill or otherwise damage him.

>where did you get your figures? i fancy a look at them as its an interesting subject

They're not 'official' figures, just a two-year sample from one veterinary surgery. But there's no reason to believe they're any different to any other surgery.

theres no reason to believe its the same as any other surgery either. i personally know 3 or 4 dogs (1 of my girls included- hence the change to titres) who have had adverse reactions to boosters. i'm not that involved in the dog world so its not from massive numbers of dog owners i know. your vets might have been lucky so far.

My world is dogs and always has been, and I dont know anyone who has had a dog had a reaction.  I do however know of people who blame boosters for all sorts of things - never any solid proof though that it was the booster.

I would never forgive myself if my boys caught something that could have been prevented.  Obviously this is my choice, I believe everyone should be able to make up their own minds.

of course they should! everyone should have the right to make up their own minds but a mind should be made up after discussion and information gathering :)

even were it not for the incidence of reactions i would prefer titre tests. i don't like taking pills or any kind of chemical etc if i can avoid it so why not test first to see if the dog really needs a virus injected into them (albeit a dead one)?, best for everyone i feel, but of course thats JMO

The point is, you can titre test and know the dog is immune, without vaccinating unneccessarily. So you're not risking your dog catching anything that could have been prevented. Vaccinating a dog that is already immune doesn't make it 'more immune'.

There is no medical research to say that vaccines cause problems. Currently. Of course there isn't, because who is going to fund it?! Not vaccine companies, those who can most afford it! Yet when a dog has an adverse reaction and there is no known possible cause other than the vaccine, they pay out. They don't do that through the goodness of their hearts, do they now?!

There is some info here: (The bit about the lepto vaccine is especially interesting)

http://www.canine-health-concern.org.uk/

I had a PM done on our dog & the results showed that the Lepto booster caused the immune reaction that killed him. The PM was done by a top professional forensic pathologist, who had in the past done work for the Vax company into other fatal reactions to various vax they produce.

There are cases where the Vax company have admitted liability & paid all the costs of treatment.

Lepto Vax does not give your dogs any cover for the servovars of Lepto in this country, it doesn't even cover all the servovars in the country of manufacture(USA)

Why if there is no link have the major Vax companies amended their regimes from yearly to three yearly ? There is no change in the vax they produce(have seen the scientific data)so why suddenly the change ? Because they were losing court cases in the USA in hundreds & their creditability was being severely damaged(ie sales were down !)

However what you have done to your dogs is, has already been written, your choice, but please do not be blinded by the Vax company's hype, there is scientific evidence that vaccinations can & do make dogs ill & sadly, like our dog, actually cause their deaths

>theres no reason to believe its the same as any other surgery either.

The Animal Health Trust's Pooch Report - a study of over 4000 dogs - tells a similar story. The summary states "Results demonstrated that recent vaccination (<3 months) does not increase signs of ill-health by more than 0.5% and may actually decrease it by as much as 5%."

>homeopathic methods sound better to me than something that can kill or otherwise damage him

I wasn't aware that there was any independent scientific evidence that validated the effectiveness of homoeopathic methods. Could you tell me where I could find them please?

i've not done any research into the issue but i understand that homeopathic methods are available. personally though i'll be going for the titre testing. i was simply mentioning the other options. though i should think googles a good place to start :)

i understand that the reactions are rare but i've seen the results in my own bitch- her reaction has been relatively mild (absent seizures that started immeditely after receiving boosters) and plenty others have seen the devestating effects it can have (moonmaiden for example). this is nt scaremongering its actually happening. whats the need to risk it when you can check immunity before having them? it is very rare but many things are rare- my friends aunt died of CJD, my other friends sis won the lottery, my sis got pregnant while on the pill and using condoms!- rare is not impossible is my point and i just don't see it as being worth the risk while their are alternatives.

Vaccinations are not compulsory in this country do not be bullied or frightened into vaccinations read up on everything and make an educated decision.

If you decide to go down the vaccine route find a vet that will use the three year vaccine as the less stress on the immune system the better for the animal.

As for the Lepto vaccine some only provide immunity for approx 3 months up to 9 months also as what moonmaiden stated not for all servovars or the ones for this country.

Only allow your vet to vaccinate your dog if it is 100% healthy all vaccine manufactures state that the animal has to be healthy.

You can titre test each year and only vaccinate the ones needed but mind you some vets do not keep single doses so you may have to find a vet that would work with you on this. 

As for homeopathic nosodes some homeopaths say they work others say they do not.

When it comes to talking about vaccinations this can be a very emotive subject so my advice to you is arm yourself with knowledge keep asking questions, do as much research as you can and come to your decision in your own time with ought others pressuring you.

Personally (for my dog) I would never booster again. With 3 (2 puppy 1 Booster) injections my dog has had 3 reactions. For my dog's health I will never vaccinate again and this decision was made between me and vets. What maybe the right decision for my dog maybe the wrong one for someone elses.

So I will reiterate again arm yourself with as much knowledge as you can :)

> The Animal Health Trust's Pooch Report - a study of over 4000 dogs - tells a similar story. The summary states "Results demonstrated that recent vaccination (<3 months) does not increase signs of ill-health by more than 0.5% and may actually decrease it by as much as 5%."

On the BSAVA footnotes of POOCH Report  "The study was funded by members of the National Office of Animal Health (NOAH), the trade association for the manufacturers of licensed animal medicines, to properly investigate the safety of routine vaccination in the UK canine population."

Donations of monies In my opinion does not make an independent report.
I personaly question this study as it did not look at vaccinated vs non vaccinated dogs.

I think the reason some of us don't trust vets to make decisions on vaccination is because IME:

a)  some permit people to over-vaccinate their dogs by giving vaccinations yearly that the manufacturers state need only be given every 3 years.  If people tried this at the doctors, would they permit it - I think not!

b)  some perpetuate the IMO shameful myth that if boosters for parvo/distemper/hepatitis are overdue, the owner has to start vaccinations from scratch, ie double dose.  The double dose is only ever necessary for puppies where maternal antibodies might interfere and I have had this confirmed by Intervet.

c)  some are willing to vaccinate unhealthy dogs.

c)  some seem to be extremely unwilling to put any ill health down to a recent vaccination.  If they were more willing to report suspected adverse reactions and also informed the public that they were also at liberty to do so and how, then I think people would have more faith in the published figures of adverse reactions.

I say 'some' before people accuse me of vet bashing again, which I'm not!  Obviously not all vets behave this way.  However, the fact that the industry doesn't seem prepared to stop some vets behaving in this manner to me is inclined to bring the whole vet/vaccination advice into disrepute and I would now always advise people to do their own research and make their own decisions.

Edited to add that I am rather shocked at some people's idea that if one dose of vaccine is good, double or triple doses must be better. :(

>the fact that the industry doesn't seem prepared to stop some vets behaving in this manner

If people have solid evidence (not hearsay) that an individual vet does the wrong thing and they don't report him/her, then how is 'the industry' meant to stop them doing it?

Excellent and very valid points Annie ns :)

Also as Katt says, vacs are not compulsory and IMO owners should look into routine meds given to their animals with the same degree of interest, concern and need of assurances as they would from their GP/health visitor for their child(ren).  

An informed choice is the best choice :)
regards, Teri

I think the veterinary governing bodies are probably very well aware of some vets over-vaccinating JG and choose IMO to ignore it, preferring not to 'rock the boat'.  In at least one case that I am aware of, the vet in question admitted giving yearly doses of a three yearly vaccine and this was taken as the vet's prerogative!  And this isn't hearsay, I have actually seen the correspondence from both sides.  As you are someone who has admitted choosing to have your dogs vaccinated yearly despite the manufacturer's advice, presumably you don't see this as wrong doing anyway but I feel vets should at the very least least challenge owners when they ask for more vaccine doses than recommended by the vaccine manufacturers.  To do less, IMO, is failing in their duty.

My own vet practice has tried to convince me to give double doses of vaccine because boosters were overdue.  I wouldn't report them for this, being in all other respects an excellent practice, but having done my own research would just choose to ignore their advice - many others who hadn't done their own research would maybe go along with it, perhaps to the detriment of their dogs' health.

>As you are someone who has admitted choosing to have your dogs vaccinated yearly despite the manufacturer's advice

Excuse me? The manufacturer's advice is to vaccinate yearly. Not the DHP part yearly - that's guaranteed for three years - but the Lepto part is separate.

>My own vet practice has tried to convince me to give double doses of vaccine because boosters were overdue.

Have you told him why he's wrong?

It was the DHP part I was referring to JG - have I misunderstood that you give that yearly as well?  If so, I apologise but I thought you had said that in the past.

No, I haven't told my vets they are wrong, surely I shouldn't need to tell them as they should be very well aware of vaccination timescales and doses without my help so I can only assume they chooses to behave in this way.

No, in the past, when the manufacturers recommended DHP was given annually my dogs got it annually, and had no ill-effects. Now that the manufacturers suggest it can be given tri-annually, I go by their advice. But the lepto they get every year.

I can understand you not wanting to tell your vet that you think his advice is wrong, or to report him, but equally can't you see that unless clients don't complain then nothing will change?

Also as Katt says, vacs are not compulsory and IMO owners should look into routine meds given to their animals with the same degree of interest, concern and need of assurances as they would from their GP/health visitor for their child(ren).  

An informed choice is the best choice

I agree entirely Teri.