My bitch had a litter of 11 just over 4 weeks ago. 
I started to wean them at 3 weeks to ease the pressure on her.  They have taken to it really well and are now on 5 small meals a day. 
I am trying to keep mum away as much as possible and only allowing her in with them once in the day and during the night. 
She is constantly cleaning up after them and I this this is what is giving her a loose tummy - when do you think I could let her feed puppies late in the evening and then not let her back in until early morning when I can do the clearing up for her. 
She is so thin now and I am keen to get her back to some sort of normality so her food is doing her some good as opposed to just benefitting the puppies.

I would never keep a bitch away from her pups at all except for when they are being fed by you.

The bitch will decide for herself when she wants to finally wean them which shouldn't be for a few weeks yet.

As for bitches that clean up after their pups you just have to be watchful and try and get there first.  Are you giving the bitch milk at all?  If so I would cut this out, and the looseness may ease.

Personally I wouldn't limit the bitch's access to the puppies other than during their meals of solid food. They still need her milk just as much as the solid food, and will for a couple of weeks yet, as well as needing her to teach them correct canine behaviour. Also limiting her access to them is increasing her risk of mastitis. If she's very thin (and they often look thinner than they are because of the weight of the undercarriage dragging the skin down making the ribs stand out more) then give her more food - at this stage she should be eating about four times her usual ration, and of very high-quality food so that there's enough for her as well as the pups.

You can really be taking her out at night now. I always take my bitches away from the puppies at night as soon as the puppies are able to eat without my help. After their last feed, when they have settled down, I put a shallow dish of very small complete feed, (I find Royal Canin Mini Junior is just the right size), in with them. It must be dampenened with hot water until it is soft. If they wake in the night and are hungry, they won't be calling out to her. Make sure the bitch is well away from the puppies so that she doesn't attemt to get into them and also the puppies can't see her and start crying. Another room is best.

Thanks Brainless - I'm not giving her any milk at all - she still wants to be with her pups all the time.  I am with her constantly so am able to clear up as much as I can but she often beats me to it!

Jeangenie - I am feeding her 4 large meals a day plus treats and have been since her milk came in.  Its not just her looking thin, she has lost a lot of condition all over - her face and legs - she feels as though she has nearly no muscle left.  She is on a variety of foods as she has really gone off complete - so she has that mixed with a good quality canned food or raw and occasionally porridge.  She has been loose since delivering puppies and it is a little better since I have restriced her access a bit.  I am watching her for mastitis - all ok at the moment.

What are you feeding her? If she's losing muscle (and of course muscle tone is lost very quickly wn=hen they're not getting their usual exercise) then she needs more protein - less carb and much more meat and eggs. If she really wants to be with the pups (as I'd expect her to) then forcibly keeping them apart will cause her so much stress that she'll lose weight that way too, and be really unhappy. A happy, thin bitch is better than an unhappy, thin bitch.

All of my 4 bitches must be very short of maternal instinct. By the time the puppies are 4 to 5 weeks old, they can't WAIT to get out of the pen after suckling the pups, especially if they have had a large litter and are being pulled about by the pups. If your bitch wants to be with the pups that's fine. I always let the bitch see the puppies being fed by me so that she knows they are not hungry.

Ells-Bells,

What food is she on?   I kept my bitch on puppy complete while she was pregnant and feeding the pups, she had about 3-4x the quantity of her normal amount and I also added raw tripe or raw beef mince in between as well as bitch milk (raw green tripe helped to stop any looseness ;) )  After feeding a medium sized litter of bouncing pups for 8 weeks she looked slim but not skinny and her muscle tone was excellent. 

By 7/8 weeks she was still feeding them, but as they were leaving that week I limited it to twice a day (she'd have fed them about 5 times) and put a T-shirt on her in between.   By 9 weeks the milk was all but gone.

Don't know if it helps, but I find raw green tripe, raw beef mince and raw lamb mince great for putting on weight/muscle at times of extra need ;)

Saxon, Ells-bells did say "she still wants to be with her pups all the time".

Dill - I have always fed Arden Grange for breakfast and raw food in the evenings.  When she came into season I switched to Royal Canin HD42 for 6 weeks prior to mating then on to RC puppy food.  She really disliked this and so I have been feeding a combination of canned food mixed with RC puppy and/or Arden Grange Prestige and also giving her 1 meal of raw with Laughing Dog W/m mixer.  She is having 4 large meals a day plus treats in between.  Perhaps I'll try giving her more raw meat instead of the canned and also let her have a little more access to the puppies for short spells and see if it helps.

Saxon - she is always happy to get out of the box/pen but keen to get back in a short while later.  She is not being shut out or anything like that, as its a nice day they are outside on the patio in a large pen and she is also outside watching them.  They are very happy - not pestereing for her to go in.

Thats always a lovely scenario, when the puppies are enjoying the sunshine and are contented, mum is nearby keeping an eye on them, It paints a lovely picture.

Agree wholeheartedly. It is wonderful to watch puppies playing out and enjoying the sun. Mum is obviously very devoted to them. I personally keep Mum away as much as I can without distressing her. However, I have been lucky as most of the time at 4 weeks Mum has wanted to be with the other dogs playing.

Well I'm glad somebody agrees with me. People have to bear in mind that as long as the puppies keep suckling, the bitch will keep struggling to produce milk. Not only is there a greater risk of pre eclampsia, but it also makes it much harder on the bitch when the puppies go to their new homes, especially if they have been allowed to suckle her on demand, not to mention the fact that they now have very sharp little teeth. Weaning, by definition, is a gradual process whereby the puppies are encouraged to explore their indepenence from their dam and learn to interact with one another.

A gradual process, yes, where ideally the bitch is in charge of the process by having free access to and from her puppies when they get too much for her. If she wants to be with them then she believes they still need her - and the bitch usually knows best, imo. Forcibly keeping the bitch away isn't in either of their best interests, because she has a lot to teach them, other than just being a milk bar!

This is exactly my point. If the bitch is shut in with the puppies all night then she doesn't have the opportunity to get away from them. In my experience, (38 litters over 43 years), when the puppies get to nearly 5 weeks, the bitch doesn't want to be shut in with them for 8 hours at a time.

38 litters over 43 years?  Blimey - that, on average, 1 litter every 13 months!    Have you kept a puppy from every litter?

i asked for advice regarding this with my first litter last year. One o fmy mentors, and a very experienced breeder suggested restricting the bitches access to the pups once they were being weaned onto solids. My friend, same mentor, had a litter two weeks older than mine and had already started restricting access. I decided not to restrict my bitches access to her pups, and friend then decided the same. She said both Mum and pups were happier when allowed free access to each other, and it was a joy to see.

I personally worked it by having the pups in their pen, and simply letting Mum in whenever she asked me, including at night. She stopped asking to go in at night at about 6 weeks and instead decided to sleep upstairs with me. We kept three puppies for people until 9-10 weeks, and one until 12 weeks. Once we just had the four left, they had free access to Mum and the house, just liek Mum did, but slept in their crate at night. They all self weaned and Mum's milk gradually dried up. She was still occasionally feeding the one pup left until she went, but would soon tell her if she didn't want to feed her.

It worked well for us, with Mum and pups all very happy.

>If the bitch is shut in with the puppies all night then she doesn't have the opportunity to get away from them.

My bitches are never shut in with the puppies - they always have free access to get in and out of the puppy room (because they can easily pop over the barrier) from day 1. I find that from about 4 or 5 weeks they begin to stand to feed the pups making suckling harder work so the pups find it easier to look for food elsewhere, so by 7 weeks they're just having the odd comfort suck and the bitch is nearly dry. In the meantime she enjoys playing with the pups and generally keeping a fond eye on them.

> 38 litters over 43 years?  Blimey - that, on average, 1 litter every 13 months!    Have you kept a puppy from every litter?

Not every litter. I sometimes miss a year and sometimes I have 2 litters in a year. It all depends when my bitches come into season. I don't think this is excessive, most serious breeders have at least one litter a year and I've usually got a waiting list for puppies.In the 60s and 70s it wasn't unusual for the top breeders in most breeds to keep 50 or 60 dogs, of course, in those days a kennelmaid was paid about £3.00 a week and her keep. As with most breeds, I've seen many changes in type over the last 40 odd years and what was considered a stunning dog in 1965 would be lucky to get placed at a limited show nowadays. You have to constantly strive to improve and you sometimes have to do test matings to see if combining two particular bloodlines will work. The hardest part is ensuring that all your puppies have the best possible homes and I've been very lucky in that respect, in fact I've got one young lady waiting for a puppy from my next litter whose parents, grandparents and great grandparents have had puppies from me.