Hi all,

My first post! 

Three weeks ago I took in a rescue staffy bitch aged around 5, who'd been found stray in a bad state.  Oviously, nothing was known about her past, but the rescue centre peeps said they suspected she might have been used for fighting and that I could have problems in that area.

Well, she is the loveliest girl in the world when she's at home, and I've fallen for her completely.  But she turns into the Spawn of Satan with other dogs, and it's really getting to me.  She will attack without provocation, and her speed and aggression are something to behold.  I learned quickly that she could not be let off her lead after she almost tore another (much bigger) dog to shreds.  I'd found some really isolated woods where I'd never ever seen a dog, and as fate would have it, that day we did :(

Anyway, even on the lead she can be a nightmare.  If other dogs who are unleashed come close enough she will grab them.  So I spend half my time picking her up.  This morning I was standing in the park chatting to a friend, and I had Stella on a very short leash.  I didn't notice two dachsunds toddle up behind me - and before I knew it, Stella had one of them in her teeth.  Luckily she didn't have a good grip, but it was all very pusetting, especially for the bemused owner of the dachsund.

I tried a muzzle last week, which was a disaster.  She wouldn't do anything except try to get it off, so we didn't get any walking done!

Sorry to be a bit hopeless but I'd appreciate any help.  I feel angry that some horrible people may have raised her to be so aggressive, but I also know it could be too late to do much to change it.  So what can I do?

I do feel for you in your situation ((hug))
I am surprised the rescue centre put the poor dog up for re-homing if they though she may have been bought up as a fighting dog?
Now I have no 'stereo typing' thoughts on Staffie, Rotties etc, as my dogs play and walk with Staffies so my answer here is to do with the actual up bringing of this dog and not her breed at all.  But I feel the rescue centre should have not had her rehomed, if any signs of being a fighting dog was present in their assessment.  And I would be terrified to take her for a walk if her behaviour toward other dogs was very aggressive and too I would not like my dogs to experience this on a walk in public areas.

I really don't know what to suggest, it must be very hard when she is so lovable at home but when other dogs are around she changes, maybe you could try a dog behaviourist but again I stress if the rescue centre belive her to be from a fighting background they may not be much hope :( :(

Very kind of you to take her on, but I am surprised that the rescue center had not fully checked her reactions to other dogs especially if they thought she was from a fighting background, and then they could have at least attempted to see if her problems may be workable. Not very responsible if you ask me that they have just passed her on. The safest and kindest thing may well have been to have her PTS. As it is you will have to get her used to the muzzle and it hopefully shouldn't be too difficult. If you just put it on with a jolly hockey sticks approach (possibly with a small treat in it at the far end), run around a bit (in the house/garden) to take her mind off it, just a few minutes at first and repeat several times a day. Probably lots of methods you could use similar to those used when trying to get a dog used to a head collar.

Good luck!

Could you perhaps PM and let me know which rescue you got the dog from?
I find it quite unusual that a dog that even may have been used as a fighting dog would be rehomed.
Have you contacted the rescue centre/people from which you got the dog?

I'm shocked that any rescue centre would rehome a dog (any breed) without checking it's suitability.  All I can suggest is that if you plan on keeping her, I would try to get her used to wearing a muzzle, make it a big game and heaps of fun.  She will have to wear this permanently when out walking as you can't risk the damage that could be done to another dog, or the owners trying to seperate them.  Also teach her the "leave it" command, which can come in very handy if passing another dog on the lead.
Best of luck,
Sarah.
P.S. If you get her used to wearing a muzzle, make sure you carry something to defend HER against a dog attack as with a muzzle on she cannot defend herself!

Like the other posters I am astounded that a rescue centre would rehome a dog suspected of dog fighting in the past.

I think you are probably going to have to accept that she will not be able to be let off lead in a public place ever.  Getting her used to a muzzle can be fairly easy but you will need patience by making it into a good thing, the basket type muzzles are the easiest ones for them to get used to and can be introduced using her favourite treats and having it on loosely and then gradually tightening it up so it fits properly.

Thanks everyone for your support.

I had no idea it was considered bad form for a rescue centre to try to re-home a fighting dog.  Of course, the rescue centre couldn't say for sure, but they had noted that she was aggressive toward the other dogs there.  She also had a lot of deep cuts when she came in, but that could have been from foxes when she was stray.

I will do as you say and get in touch with the rescue people, to ask why they didn't give me a clearer picture.  I don't want to name them cos they're very nice, and a bit overwhelmed, I think.  I was taken aback when they let me have her on my first visit, without asking me any questions; but that was okay with me cos I know I'm a good person and would try my best for the dog.

I will also persevere with the muzzle.  That seems the only option, really.  Would you say I could let her off the lead in a secluded spot, IF she was muzzled?  She is so overjoyed when she can run free,  but right now I just can't risk it.  Quite frankly I'm scared enough when she's on the lead!

stella's dad, could you get access to somewhere she wouldn't get near other dogs.  A good place I have found is tennis courts but they are quite busy in the summer.  Outdoor ones in the park usually have gates that can be bolted and if you can get someone to stand outside and ask others not to go in she will be able to get a good run around albeit in a fairly confined space. 

the only other thing I could suggest is trying to find a behaviourist who specialises in aggressive dogs.

> Would you say I could let her off the lead in a secluded spot,

If it was me then only somewhere that I knew was secure and there was no chance of meeting other dogs e.g. someones private paddock, an indoor riding school.
Other people may think differently but for me I would be hesistant about letting her off anywhere else, more for my own piece of mind and knowing that we could both relax a little.

You need to get her used to wearing a muzzle. If she is frightened by it (rather than irritated), then it's best to get her used to it slowly.
Let her smell it & see it, you could put a treat in the end (or hold a treat at the other end if it is a nylon muzzle) and encourage her to put her nose in on her own accord, don't try and fasten it at this stage.
Once she has no problem putting her nose in, you could try to slowly put the muzzle on her your self, again without fastening it, lots of praise & take it back off.
Once she is happy to have it put on her nose & taken off, leave it on her for a few moments while praising, then romove.
Next step is for her to be used to wearing the muzzle with it being fastened.

This is a slowly, slowly approach., similar to the way I got my pup used to wearing his halti, the first time I put it on him he freaked out (jumping around like a bucking bronko!!), a week later and he didn't bat an eyelid at it :)

If she is just irritated by the muzzle she will soon associate it with going for a walk if you put it on her before putting her lead on. I've had a dog-agressive dog in the past, as soon as we learnt he was like it he wore a muzzle, he didn't like it at first - (it bugged him) but tuff - it stayed on,  no muzzle = no walk. He soon got used to it :)

Don't let her off-lead without a muzzle unless you are in a secure area where you KNOW (not think) that there will be no other dogs, as you've found, if you find a secluded spot that you think nobody else uses, as soon as you unclip her lead a dog will appear - sods law!

stellasdad, I think we can safely say that ALL rescue centres are pretty inundated at the mo, can definitely say stafford rescues are!
I understand your reluctance to name the rescue, but I am still very surprised that rescue would rehome a dog which was known to be so aggressive, AND let you have her on your first visit.
I am a volunteer with Stafford rescue and I can say hand on heart that is NOT how our rescue operates.
I hope that you have some positive advice from the rescue people you were in touch with, please let us know.

She goes in the muzzle without demur, but hates it when we're out.

It's one of those soft muzzles that go round her snout, not the Hannibal Lecter type.  How tight should it be?  The one I have (which is supposedly the right size for a staffy - and she's small (13.5 kg) still seems tight.  She can just about poke her tongue out.  I think she should be able to hang her tongue out and pant.  Should I get the next size up, or try the Hannibal Lecter?  They look so horrible, but that's tough luck.

I really want to solve this.  Apart from anything, I HATE the fact that I've had to be very violent with her.  I'm not a violent person, but last week she would have killed the other dog if I hadn't thrown my whole weight onto her back.  I was smashing her snout as hard as I could with the casing of her (retractable) lead, and she took zero notice.  She was just full of blood-lust.  The owner of the other dog (who was irresponsible herself, out with a toddler, plus a baby in a stroller AND two big dogs off the lead) was absolutely hysterical, as I rolled around on the floor trying to separate these two dogs :(

My poor Stella is lying on the floor as I type this, very much aware that she's out of favour.  Poor thing.  I hate the people who made her so aggressive with other dogs!

I'm not a fan of the "soft muzzle" as the dog can't pant etc.  The baskerville, though you think is a bit hanibal is kinder for the dog.

Stellasdad this you said before My poor Stella is lying on the floor as I type this, very much aware that she's out of favour.  Poor thing.  I hate the people who made her so aggressive with other dogs! Is so true :( Im glad you said that as its makes it clear that tis dog was not born aggressive but due to some people who I cant say what I really feel on here but should be hunted and destroyed themselves had made her this way.

If she is perfect with you and is your little angel until she meets another dog, then it is only dog aggression she is dealing with and it is seldom completely curable, a muzzle is a really good start and if you start slowly and easily, IE everytime she lets the muzzle just be near her on the sofa you give her a treat so she assiotes Muzzle = treats and daddys love!!

As she gets used to it being close, slowly just hang it off her muzzle or fix one strap of it on and is she lets it stay there for even a second then praise and reward :) eventually she will let it be on with no fuss and you wont need treats at all but its still nice to give treats I think.

If you do all this on your sofa or somewhere relaxed and comftable rather then putting it on straight away outside where its all new and alien I reckon you will be able to have some lovely walks in no time.
She may always have to be muzzled but thats better then her or another dog being hurt and the main thing is shes good with you :)

Staffords are so wanting to learn, so be patient and reap what you sow :)

Hi sorry to hear about this dog you have taken on.. I;m afraid you will have to let her put up with the muzzle-she will get used to it eventually. Until then you may get severely bitten one day by picking her up when she is in a temper. A halti lead and a harness with 2 separate leads is a must too, it will stop her from using her strength to fly at dogs with her teeth a gnashing. If you don't do all you can to make it safe for you and other members of the public it only takes a person to get bitten or even to scare them half to death with trying to break up a fight - then you have the dog warden/police at your dog and you will end up in court for owning a dangerous dog.. Sorry to to so brutal I have been through this myself with my BT and it took 6 months. I took him to an aggression expert to sort out why he had anger with other dogs- But he was just a pet? found out it was jealously! god knows what your poor little girl has been through to be like this. :( Best of luck. 

About the type of muzzle- I've got the Hannibal lecter sort lol funny! but they can have a drink and you can pop a treat in through the bar's- you will get odd looks off people but at least she can pant- which they can't do with the nylon ones that keep their mouths completely closed  

Thanks everyone, you're all being so kind and helpful.  I will get her a Hannibal muzzle.  They seem better, even if they're frightening.

I hate to think about Stella's previous life.  I don't think it was nice.  She's the only dog I've ever known who doesn't know the word "walkies".  And she seems to have no concept of the word "play".  I've tried a dozen toys but she just doesn't get it.  All she likes is having her tummy tickled, and licking you.  She doesn't even get that excited about food, apart from the evil Frolics, which she adores (but make her pooh go bright yellow and slimy - erk!).

I'll be honest - if she was aggressive with people I'd probably give up.  But I'm determined to find a way round the walkies problem.

Am I right in thinking she couldn't do much damage to other dogs if she's wearing the Baskerville?  Will she still attack with her claws?

>It's one of those soft muzzles that go round her snout, not the Hannibal Lecter type.

As far as I'm aware the soft ones are only intended for use during grooming. You're right that she won't be able to pant in one of those, and will rapidly overheat in the hotter months. Best to get one of the cage types as mentioned. I know they look horrible but on the plus side you may actually find that other dog walkers will actively avoid you which would probably do you a favour! If you are unsure about sizing you could perhaps ask the pet shop if it would be ok for you to buy two sizes and then return one once you've established the best fit.

>I was taken aback when they let me have her on my first visit, without asking me any questions;

Wow, this place sounds worse and worse! I wonder how many unsavoury people actually go around looking for possible ex fighting dogs? They would get them no problem from this place by the sounds of it, raring and ready to go.

Good luck with her. Once you have her safely muzzled I'm sure she will enjoy her walks once more, and she'll be aware that you are more relaxed too. At only 13.5kg she sounds a very manageable size (as long as she can't get her teeth out!) so you at least have that on your side

> I'm not a fan of the "soft muzzle" as the dog can't pant etc.  The baskerville, though you think is a bit hanibal is kinder for the dog.

Totally agree. We first tried the soft, nylon muzzle on our dog (years ago), after 1 walk we refused to use it again, he was trying to pant & couldn't, so we got him the 'baskerville' sort, like a metal cage - much better for him (lol, it does look like a 'hanibal' thing!) :)

> Am I right in thinking she couldn't do much damage to other dogs if she's wearing the Baskerville? Will she still attack with her claws?

She can't cause damage with her teeth, but it depends on what she's like if she will use her paws as weapons or not, she could scratch by trying to hold a dog down?.
Years ago we were walking our muzzled dog (the one who wanted to take on most dogs he met), he bolted accross a field, slamming his head into another dog and knocking it to the floor, it was a lovely well behaved retriever, who did nothing to warrant an attack from my smaller cross-breed :( , my dog used his face to pin the other dogs neck to the floor. The other dog was not physically damadged, but the poor thing was frightened wit-less. After that we kept our boy on-lead unless we were positive that no other dog was in the same field as us :(

Another type of muzzle you could get is the type used for greyhounds but custom made for your dog. This is what a friend of mine did for their rescue who tried to kill anything the size of a Yorky. The dog was a Heinz57 with a wide muzzle. It worked a treat as it was very light, strong and fitted the dog perfectly.

No she will not use her claw's to attack. AS mastiff mentioned before I have "heard" also  of a BT charging and head butting to attack- but I think that is a bully way of having a pop- my snoop when he had his muzzle  on would hide behind my legs when he saw another dog they seem to know they can't fight- well he did anyhow..  If you do let her off lead somewhere empty of other dogs, I expect she will just do loads of floor dives rubbing her face/ muzzle to try and get the thing off! looks funny but try and get her up and run about with her.. The excitement of bombing about and having a muck about with you will take her mind off doing that.
I once had a 6 month old staff x who had been locked up in the back yard with so much furniture out there with her only had about 2 ft square room to move- she also didn't know how to play :( when I got a tennis ball and rolled it across the floor she got up and looked at it! its a whole new concept for them as before there existence was to survive- sad but true.. didn't realise she was so little? Is she under weight? odd that the homing centre gave you a under weight dog too ? Take some photos of what she looks like now- you will be amazed looking back at them in 6 months time. :) 

>didn't realise she was so little? Is she under weight? odd that the homing centre gave you a under weight dog too ?

She sounds fine to me weight wise. The breed standard states bitches should be between 11 and 15.4 kgs.

Am I right in thinking she couldn't do much damage to other dogs if she's wearing the Baskerville?

I was taught by a behaviorist how to train a dog to wear one of these -and training is required for the dog to enjoy doing it. In a nutshell, you start off by using the muzzle as a food bowl! Put lots of tasty treats inside it, like hot dogs, and feed her from it whilst you hold it. When she happily puts her head inside it, eventually you can fasten it on -and then KEEP pushing treats through the wire. By doing it this way, you should end up with a dog that doesn't mind wearing a muzzle at all. :) It worked for my dog.

As for being able to do any damage with a muzzle on -yes, it is still perfectly possible. I speak from personal experience here, and a dog doesn't stop attacking just because they are muzzled. If the other dog is the same size or bigger, only the muzzled dog will stand much of a chance of getting injured (but that IS a big risk, as the dog being attacked will not understand that it cannot be bitten, so will defend itself most likely) but if the dog is SMALLER, it could still end up being killed just by the force of a heavier body.

I think you really need a good behaviourist, most likely via referral from your vet.

Thanks again everyone.

Mudmops - could you tell me a bit more about that greyhound muzzle?

I'm going to change her soft muzzle to a basket one this morning and we'll go from there. 

I took her to a freiend's big garden early today and let her off.  Blesser, she ran around like a lunatic till she was knackered.  Plus she did her business immediately.  When she's on the lead it can take two hours!

I must sort this out.  She's just so happy when she's running free.

Hiya, i used the baskerville muzzle on one of my rotties, my boy used to sulk when i put it on him, but he got used to it, she shouldnt be able to do much damage with it on she may still try to but i found and it can work both ways that because they are unable to defend themselves in their eyes they dont go looking for a fight! but it can also make them panic and act more aggresiviely as if to say back off.... they can feel more intimidated. I also cannot believe that a rescue has rehomed a staff that has been knowingly bred for fighting! I applaud you for taking her on well done, can i also say that my rottie was like theat when out, and he wasnt bred for fighting as long as she is a sweety at home you should be fine,

xx
roxie buster and babys mum x

I'm sorry but I'd still be interested to know which area even this rescue centre is in.
With all the media hype, etc, I cannot believe that a rescue would knowingly do this.
I hope that you get on ok with the muzzle I really do.  X

***Putting my tin hat on, ready for the onslaught***

But, just giving my honest opinion.

You have a dog which has been used in dog fights, certainly the evidence proves she detests other dogs and is extremely volatile around them.

IMO when a dog has been used like this, you would have to be a miracle worker to desensitize it, it is a forever problem.

You can never let this dog off lead ever  unless it is an area with no-one around.  Where is the fun of the walk? Dog ownership for me is all about your dog running free enjoying meeting other dogs, playing, chatting to other dog walkers, not spending it in fear of your dog turning into a mental case everytime it sees another dog.  Even if muzzled it will still snarl and growl and try to get at a dog, (horrible for other dog walkers to have to put up with) if she were to break free even if muzzled, she still has nails, body weight, and possibly will get the muzzle off.

Where is the pleasure in dog ownership?

Sorry, but you should never have been sold her, I would take her back to the rescue, who should put her to sleep, she is a danger, this is not a little dog agression that can be worked on, this is a killing machine now, that may very well maime and kill someones beloved dog not to mention the damage that may be caused with human intervention in trying to break up a fight.

Go via Tessies Tracey's rescue, and get yourself a nice Staffie of good temprement, I'm sure she will help you. :-)

I dont really have any advice for you but wanted to say really really well done for taking this on & going about it in such a good way. Like the others have said it seems very bad practise to let any dog go on the first visit, especially a dog they suspect as coming from a fighting past. Presumably they didnt do a house visit then either? (Thats not me saying your house in unsuitable but most rescue centres do a home check as common practise). Luckily you are a good person but it seems to me this dog could have very easil ended up in the wrong hands.
Good luck with Stella & keep us informed. With time & patience, plus lots of TLC i think you could come on leaps and bounds. Have you thought about approaching a trainer/behaviourist? I know they are not cheap but they could offer and demonstrate some really usefull practical advise.
xxx

I'm agreeing with Carrington here... it's one heck of a responsibility to have a dog with this type of behaviour?
Have you owned staffords before?
There are so many questions about this situation....
I am MORE than happy to help you find a good rescue.  Even if you're not in the area that we deal with I know of many breed specific (ie Stafford) rescue coordinators that would be more than willing to help.
I hope it doesn't sound like we're being harsh.....

I don't think she should be PTS without any effort put into managing/controlling/changing her aggressive nature.

Nobody knows that she was 'bred for fighting'. Her past is unknown. The rescue believes she has been involved in fights due to her aggressive nature with other dogs and scarring she has sustained. Who's to say that she isn't aggressive because she is frightened? For all we know she may have been attacked and now feels the need to defend her self against every dog she sees.
The owner is being responsible and keeping her muzzled, she has access to secure off-lead running. All she needs now is a behaviourist to see how much can be done for her, weather it be confidence building for her to over come fear-aggression or desensitisation for her to not over-react around other dogs.

>You can never let this dog off lead ever  unless it is an area with no-one around. Where is the fun of the walk? Dog ownership for me is all about your dog running free enjoying meeting other dogs, playing, chatting to other dog walkers,

My dog is never let off-lead, due to public perception, people are frightened by his size and looks.
Owning a dog, to means, means sharing your whole life with it, the walk is only a small part of life with a dog and I enjoy walking with my dog, just me & him, taking in the sights and sounds of the country :)

i agree with you mastiff lover....my oldest was dog aggressive and with the help of a behaviorist hes learnt to ignore other dogs but id never let him off the lead just in case but id never say i dont enjoy owning him !! we'v got a big back garden,he enjoys he's walks and play times and training, he loves playing with his little sister and my children and the trampoline and it all gels nicely

i really think op should see a behaviorist immediatly (for dog obviously =) ) and i wish you all the best

I learned quickly that she could not be let off her lead after she almost tore another (much bigger) dog to shreds.

If other dogs who are unleashed come close enough she will grab them.   I didn't notice two dachsunds toddle up behind me - and before I knew it, Stella had one of them in her teeth.  Luckily she didn't have a good grip, but it was all very pusetting, especially for the bemused owner of the dachsund.


I'm not taking away anything from your post Mastifflover, a dog can be walked on lead, and a behaviourist can help with many issues.

But IMO with this dog, all that is happening in bringing in a behaviourist is stalling the inevitable, I'm being truthfull and blunt to avoid our poster from spending weeks and months in hope of something I don't feel can be fixed, this is sever aggression, and IMO this dog is damaged beyond repair, as are many humans who go through bad experiences, a dog would not be this dog aggressive without being involved in fighting, the scarring and all the evidence points to the fact.

If a human acted like this he would be in jail, we don't put dogs like this in jail we are kinder and put them to sleep.

It is inevevitably the posters decision, I just would not want the potential of blood on my hands because I had a dog like this.

I agree Mastifflover, that the dog should not be 'written off' so to speak, and you're right no-one knows the dogs history, which is not unusual in some rescue cases.  So we don't know, in equal measures, whether she was bred for fighting or not.
I do believe, however, that the rescue have acted irresponsibly in rehoming this animal without assessing it and without even homechecking the new owner?

My own stafford bitch is not keen on other dogs, I wouldn't and haven't written her off, but I know her and have done for over 6 years. 
This dog is new to this owner, as opposed to growing up in this owners hands.
More power to him for trying with her of course.
It's how it's got to this stage that upsets me.

>> But IMO with this dog, all that is happening in bringing in a behaviourist is stalling the inevitable, I'm being truthfull and blunt to avoid our poster from spending weeks and months in hope of something I don't feel can be fixed, this is sever aggression, and IMO this dog is damaged beyond repair, as are many humans who go through bad experiences, a dog would not be this dog aggressive without being involved in fighting, the scarring and all the evidence points to the fact.
>
> If a human acted like this he would be in jail, we don't put dogs like this in jail we are kinder and put them to sleep.
>

I can see your point BUT.. I had a dog-aggressive dog, after the first incident of him hurting another dog, he was muzzled when out. For the rest of his life he never harmed another dog (he would of if he had the chance), but we kept him muzlled when out and kept him on-lead around other dogs (still muzzled, he would attack dogs that approached him, given half the chnace).
He never got over his aggresion, but never harmed another dog, if we had him PTS after the first incident - why would that be kind on him? keeping him alive caused no problems for anybody and away from other dogs he was lovely, he did get on very well with his litter mate who we also had. He enjoyed his life and walked aboput 10 miles evey day, 5 miles of this was off-lead in the country side, where we could see for fields around us if antoher dog was approaching. We never took him to a behaviourist, we didn't know that aggresion could be helped. If I had my time over with him, he would have been castrated and at a behaviorists like a shot.

Your right most dog aggressive dogs can certainly be helped, and yours possibly may well have led a different life....... if you had had the knowledge at the time. :-)

The problem though is dogs are aggressive for different reasons, you have the fear aggressive, the dominant, the adolescent being told off by other males.  These lead to fights....... some quite nasty.

The difference, (and I know it is not 100% confirmed) of a dog brought up to fight, is it is not fighting for any of these reasons. A dog brought up to fight, is fighting for it's life it is not having a 'dog fight' it is going for the kill, if it does not kill, it is dead by it's rival, unless the human 'scum' doing this intervene to rescue their dog.

A behaviourist can not change the mind set of a dog who believes other dogs will kill it, because it won't give another 'guinea-pig' dog the chance to proove that, it will kill it first.

This is why I believe there is little to no hope of a behviourist helping.

If the owner keeps this dog, they will always have to know this and take every precaution that this dog gets no-where near another, it's a hard job, I know I wouldn't want it, not when there are hundereds and thousands of other Staffs wanting a good home.

I think it is great that you are trying to help this dog :-)

I also agree with the others that the rescue that you used are not really following what most other rescues do (primarily to ensure that the dog has a forever home).

I had a staffie who now lives with my parents and she was used for fighting before we got her, she is a wonderful dog and I love her to pieces....but in 6 years (and several behaviourists later) she has never changed. She has certainly calmed down alot but she still hates other dogs and it is very sad!

What I am trying to say is that like you I was determined not to give up on her and I let myself be affected (not easy not to do) by the story of her previous life and I was blind to how difficult life with her would be. Now there is no way I would have her put to sleep now but perhaps if i had really thought about it at the time it may have been the right thing to do. We had some awful experiences where she broke free of her muzzle and without going into details it is not something i would wish on anyone.

It is obviously a bit different as you are unsure of your dogs history and i'm not saying that you should have your dog pts, just think long and hard about what to do as it is a big responsibility to own a dog who literally hates other dogs :-(

> Your right most dog aggressive dogs can certainly be helped, and yours possibly may well have led a different life....... if you had had the knowledge at the time. :-)

Very true, if we knew what we do now I'm sure we could have got rid of his aggression, in fact I think the way we dealt with it we made it worse :( ... but we live and learn...

> The difference, (and I know it is not 100% confirmed) of a dog brought up to fight, is it is not fighting for any of these reasons. A dog brought up to fight, is fighting for it's life it is not having a 'dog fight' it is going for the kill, if it does not kill, it is dead by it's rival, unless the human 'scum' doing this intervene to rescue their dog.

You're right, I keep forgetting this part :(  But wouldn't a good behaviourist be able to tell the root of the aggression, ie. be able to tell if the dog's been raised/bred as a fighter as oposed to bieng dominant/fearfull etc.??

I wonder if it was any other breed if people would be again so willing to have a dog pts?

Seems on here a few posts have been responded to in immediate pts and no alternative should be tried, funny enough this has been with Staffords and Rotties, any coincedence?

I fully believe this girl is worth a second chance, she had no power over her past unlike a murderer like carrington rightly said, and we even let pedophiles back into communities knowing they may attack again and sometimes they do so even scum like them get second chances, surely a poor dog unable to control the expierances it has had deserves a second chance?
with a muzzle there is no chance any other dog will ever come to harm as her teeth are covered and harmless, because a muzzle has to be worn doesnt mean she can never be walked or have good long lead expierances, no reason what so ever to pts just because it will be muzzled permantly?!

Any rescue will have to put what you have written and told us on the info about her and she will never be rehomed, you are this dogs last chance and I hope you try absoultly everything before this innocent victim is pts.

People are recommending she is put to sleep due to the fact that she has "possibly" been trained as a fighting dog - NOT because she is a staffy.  I very much doubt a labrador would have been trained as a fighting dog so the advice may well have been different.

Thats a very big ''possibly'' with no proof and a life riding on it, its just not enough to justify putting a perfectly healthy dog to sleep, she could have been attacked and gotten scars that way and thus leaving her with serious dog issues same as any other dog in the world would be, but of course instantly her scars are caused by dog fighting cause shes a stafford.
Plenty of other dogs have attacked and had to be muzzled and they are not instantly pts, just seems the stafford is easier to cull then cure in some peoples eyes, not everyones of course but most.

Labradors have attacked dogs and people as well without needed to be fight trained same as other breeds, maybe thats worse as it isnt in their nature but they still do it for no apparant reason sometimes.

> I fully believe this girl is worth a second chance,

I do to, but I think Carrinton highlighted a good point with the fact that if the dog has been bred/trained/used for fighting it is not something that could be sorted out via a behaviourist, in which case the owner will need to be aware of this and ensure the dog doesn't get the chance to get to another dog.

if the dogs muzzled and kept on lead how will it hurt another dog? while not minimising the dog aggression in any way it is not completely uncontrollable and in every other way she sounds a good dog- so rather than preventing her hurting other dogs and enjoying her at home you think she should be killed for something humans did to her? seems extremely unfair on the dog.

as to what you said before about dogs being on lead, many many breeds are reccommended as lead only breeds (akitas, huskies etc)- not every owner feels the need to have an off lead dog. its not a reason to kill them.

angels your right to highlight to potential dangers to the op, its right that they be informed by those with experience since the rescue has let them down so badly. i don;t think its right to put her to sleep without trying though, as you did with yours, well done for persevering

I dont think the dog should be PTS, I do think that it should be assessed by a behaviourist because as useful as forums are, no one has actually seen the dog. 

> i don;t think its right to put her to sleep without trying though

I agree if this dog was used for fighting then it has suffered at the hands of humans and should be given a chance :-)

as to what you said before about dogs being on lead, many many breeds are reccommended as lead only breeds (akitas, huskies etc)- not every owner feels the need to have an off lead dog. its not a reason to kill them.

Thats a real good point, many breeds live happily never being allowed free roam and many breeds like Greyhounds always seem to have muzzles on and live happily, no reason this dog cant be the same and live a happy full life, staffys dont care if they never get to see another dog, they are about people and dogs just get in the way really and Im speaking from expierance!

> I dont think the dog should be PTS, I do think that it should be assessed by a behaviourist because as useful as forums are, no one has actually seen the dog

You have hit the nail on the head so to speak ;-)

with a muzzle there is no chance any other dog will ever come to harm as her teeth are covered and harmless, because a muzzle has to be worn doesnt mean she can never be walked or have good long lead expierances, no reason what so ever to pts just because it will be muzzled permantly?!

Sorry but that is rubbish -as I have already mentioned. A smaller dog could still get seriously injured or killed just by being jumped at. It's not only teeth that do damage. And it's not only actual serious injury that matters as well -a dog being attacked by another could end up with problems for life as a result, whether it was bitten or not.

Hi All,

Gosh, what a debate!

Well, it will take a lot for me to give up on little Stella.  She's lying next to me now on the sofa, on her back, fast asleep and daft as a brush, and she'd have to do something truly terrible (ie:  attack a person) before I gave in.

If she had bad owners before that's not her fault.  I admit it's a shame that she can't play with other dogs and that I can't feel comfortable going near other dog walkers, but then again I know plenty of humans with partners who hate other humans, but they stay together because they enjoy each other's company!  Stella is a lovely dog when she's with people, and especially with me.  Okay, she doesn't get on with other dogs, but  you can't have everything you want in this world, can you?  I know plenty of people with dogs that get on with other dogs but are grumpy little buggers with human beings.

And (as someone said) I don't REALLY know about her past.  She had obviously been running wild, fending for herself (Ilive in the countryside) and for all I know her aggression stems from that.  It may calm down. 

It's such a shame they can't understand us :(  If only she could know that she's safe, and that she could have so much fun with other dogs.

But if the price I have to pay is to keep her muzzled and away from other dogs then that's okay.  She's only out for an hour or two each day, and the rest of the time she's my little pooch, snuggled up next to me watching the telly :)

PS:  I've been everywhere today and not managed to find a Baskerville to fit her.  I was surprised, considering how many Staffies there are in the UK.

i was bitten by a dog in work (weimaraner) with a muzzle on, was able to open its jaws a tiny bit and got my arm, didnt break skin, but my entire lower arm was swollen, badly bruised for weeks from the force of its head and jaws hitting me, so they are still able to do damage with a muzzle. (only time ive been bitten, and not even entirely)