I took my old lad snoops to the vet yesterday because well since he woke me up in the early hours Friday morning I have been worrying about him- he whined 3 times that night [he has never done that ever] so I assumed he had tummy ache so I got up at 4.30 as you do- to let him out etc. well it was not tummy trouble and as he has been so down in the dumps and not wanting to go for a walk sat or sun thought right Monday vets it is.
So I took him in and was chatting to the actual veterinary who had last february operated on him- due to a foreign body, so I was telling her all about his odd behaviour and all the while she was sat on the floor feeling his spine- then she looked up and said to me 'well you know about his spine don't you from last years x rays ?? I said no ? first time I heard such a thing about his back !! She was very matter of fact and started explaining to me about the problem with his back something about bone fusing apparently? [when they x- rayed his tummy for the blockage saw a problem with his spine but they didn't tell me] by then I was so flabbergasted that none of the technical talk didn't actually sunk in !
well they took bloods which came back clear today thank heavens, they also gave him a jab and he's got some Rimadyl to last him til I take him back on Thursday.
Tonight he has been lying there moaning so I nipped him out and he just sits down- then walks funny with his head down  :(
As he can't get on my bed I even brought him a new one from PAH today to go beside my bed- he had a mini Benny about that and went crackers so I thought he was ok til now again. 

When the spine fuses in some cases it's called spondylosis.

I don't have personal experience of this so can't be of much help sorry.
But I'm sure if you do a search on the internet lots of information will come up.

I had a bad night with him so am gettting in contact with the vet again. I'll ask if that is what condition he has .. thank you for your reply .

Your vet may recommend Glucosomine & Chondroitin tablets at about a million pounds for ten. Don't get them from the vet, they sell them in Wilkos for £3.25 for 60 and also in holland and barrett for a lot less than the vet. I have had excellent results giving a combination of the Glucosomine & Chondroitin together with Devils Claw. Type 'What is Devils Claw' into google and it will tell you all about it.

Just a Quickie on Glucosamine, Dogs cannot assimilate the glucosamine sulphate and need the glucosamine HCL. My vet told me there had been lots of research done into it and their bodies have not got the ability to use the sulphate but can the HCL. On another note try rose hips, ground dog rose hips are excellent for arthritic conditions as I can vouch (Have arthritic knees amongst other bits of me) and they are extremely good for the pain. They are not cheap but Boots are doing a buy two get one free at the moment and I have stocked up!!
Aileen.

>Dogs cannot assimilate the glucosamine sulphate and need the glucosamine HCL

To put it plainly, the sulphate molecules are too large apparently to be absorbed through the gut.  I've tried my dogs on generic Gluc & Chond which was a waste of time and money as it made no difference at all, but I've seen a notable positive effect with Synoquin from the vet. 

I too have tried all sorts of generic brands at low prices which made no differenence to me at all.  I'm now trying Holland's and Barratts but will need to give it a few months to see if they make any difference.  Mmmm.....I'm now off to check out Devils Claw.....

Thanks Merlot,I'd forgotten about rose hips. They're very high in vitamin c, which is another alternative medicine recommended for musculo skeletal disorders. I've got loads of dog roses in the hedges around my fields so I shall be out there come the autumn picking and drying them. I usually use them for decorating the village church at christmas, I hope God understands my dogs' needs must come before His.

Take care to remove the seeds (or rather, the hairy stuff surrounding them). If eaten, that causes a terrible itch 'on exit', as it were, and is also used as itching powder. Very embarrassing and uncomfortable!

I didn't know that, my dogs do actually sometimes pick the hips straight of the bush and eat them, I'll have to stop them doing it. Thanks for the tip, if my husband annoys me I know what I'll be adding to his rhubarb crumble from now on!!!

> My vet told me there had been lots of research done into it and their bodies have not got the ability to use the sulphate but can the HCL.

The vets suppliments are made with Glucosamine HCL, but you can get Gluc. HCL supp cheaper than the vets :) Ironically, glucosamine HCL is actually cheaper for the manufacturers than glucosamine sulphate ??
Here's some info on glucosamine, comparing the HCL with the Sulphate:

http://www.nutrasense.com/gluchclvssul.html

I've had great results with Synflex, containing both glucosamine HCL & sulphate, not the cheapest but has been so good, my pup no-longer needs Metacam for his ED :)

http://hwize.com/synflex/synflex.html?

Hi Magica
Unfortunately I have had quite a bit of experience of spinal problems with my GSD's and from what you describe. ie whining, walking funny with his head down, it does sound like he is in considerable discomfort from his neck or back. Not wanting to worry you, but if Snoops has a "disc" that is active, it will remain so for a period before it fuses. It is very important that during this time he is managed very carefully, ie crate rest and minimal lead-exercise only, certainly no jumping on beds. Once the vertebrae have fused, he will be able to return to his old life, albeit a little stiffer. Many years ago I did a lot of research regarding Glucosamine and Chondroitin, and my friend who is an orthopadic vet compared all the products I had data on, the human product he recommended was called Joint Action available in most good health food shops. I think the price is about £10.00 fo 60 tablets. I know this isn't the cheapest product, but it is manufactured to the exact formulation that all the clinical trials were based on. I hope this helps and really don't want to worry you about the possibility of disc problems, but the consequences are quite high and I think it might be worth consulting you vet again as Snoop still appears to be in pain, despite being on the Rimadyl.

Hi Goldiemad,
Thanks for the info - I did pop to the vets again and they've given me some Tramadol so he has stopped the moaning today also got an appointment again with him tomorrow at 10am .
I went out this afternoon and when I got back he was on my son's bed & I had to lift him off as he just stood there for ages  trying to get to grips with jumping off fool, so I am going to keep the door closed and make him sleep downstairs tonight because he might of been moaning about not being able to get on my bed ? My son did mentioned to me today that he woke him up also with the noise he was making I had eventually crashed out. He has only been out for a wee, he does not want to get up even, so hard enough to get him out for that.
Funny because usually Tinkerbell will lie right on him or next to him, but was very surprised that she spent last night down stairs on her own? I've brought a second bed so she does not have to be cuddled up with as she normally needs too. They share a bed as she destroyed the one I brought her. Maybe she can tell he's not right he is every so quiet.
My friend is coming up tomorrow with her young dog Rodney bit worried that snoops will not cope has he has zero manners ?

Sorry to hear of your probs have just been through spinal probs with my daxi.She had a slipped disc which left her paralysed,she underwent decompressive spinal surgery, (Hemilaminectomy),with no guarentees she would walk again,anyway against all the odds she came through and is walking,its been a long haul with daily physio and cage rest which isn't as bad as people seem to think,infact Tilly actualy likes the cage and sleeps in it at night now instead of my bed.Also my vet suggested I put her on glaucosamin,and chondroitin.You didnt say what dog you have and is it one of the breeds that is prone to spinal probs.I wish you luck with your boy and let me no how it goes.Regards Gwen (dachmad)

That's such great news about your girl. I'm not sure whether my breed [Bull terrier] has spinal problems? I haven't heard once ever of them having trouble- but reading on the website today as some one earlier mentioned about Devils claw [ I brought some to see if that helps] and it said it can happen with any dog with old age. Made me rather cross to find out a year after the vets found this problem as I would of made sure that his weight was kept down and I could of gotten him on all these holistic remedies before, he was in such a state last night. The other tablets I went down for today,  seem to of made him a lot better- just taken him out and he trotted up the lane lovely- so at least these pills have made him feel better.
Should I only take him out for a little stroll twice a day ? How long do I have to do only minimal exercise for ? A week ? A month? The vet didn't mention about exercise and what not to do ? I suppose he didn't really get up off the floor of the vets when she saw him last. ? 

I no you boy has not had an op ,but when Tilly first started to go down with her problem I noticed it be cause her left hind leg was like buckling under her,so of we went to vets who examined her spine and cranked her legs here there and everywhere,said to me you no this breed is prone to spinal probs,yes said I,and Tilly was given an anti imflamatery jab and sent home with metacam.Well by the time we got back she was like nothing had ever happened.we should have gone back for x rays on the tuesday if there was no improvement.I was told to rest her not to let her jump on and off furniture ,no climbing stairs etc.we cacelled the x rays on the Tuesday as she seemed to be back to normal.On Tuesday at bedtime she let out one hell off a scream and she was paralysed on her back legs, and that was the result off the disc collapsing.Anyway to cut a long story short she had the op 8 weeks ago.and we have got to the stage now where she can have 3  10 minute walks a day ,still on cage rest when we are not about to keep an eye on her So I would probably say to you very little excercise for now.Plenty of rest,I mean in the early days I could only take Tilly in the garden for her toilet as she had to walk with a sling under her tum.I hope this maybe of help to you I no what its like I have been to hell and back this last couple of months.Tilly and I send positive thoughts to you and your boygood Luck Gwen and Tilly

Dear Gwen & Tilly,
Does sound similar as snoop for a while now has not put any weight on his back right leg not that I really noticed before- only it never entered my mind oh its his back going! . I pray he does not need an operation again because I paid £700 last feb for a food blockage. Sounds as if your girl is on the road to recovery. :)
I suppose if a person has back surgery it takes months to recover.I will heed all your advice.
Sue & snoops x 

Magica

Ellis was diagnosed with spondylosis just over 18 months ago, I took him to the vet because he kept yelping when you touched his back end.  At the time of discovery he had it in 3 vertibrae, the last visit to the vet (1 month ago) it is now half way up his spine, so is moving fast.  For the last year or just over I wouldn't even know he had a problem any more, he seems to cope with it well, even back to jumping in the car & if he can get away with it onto the settee !!! nothing wrong with him then !  I was told at the time that he would only be in pain when having a growth spert, but to be honest he never complains anymore.

Surgery I was told would only help temporarily, as the spondylosis will carry on growing, so would you put a dog through majour surgery to have the problem come back in a year or so?

I was told that he probably got the problem with his spine due to over excersise when he was young.

The down side of finding out what was wrong with his spine has now left him with epilepsy, which is now controlled with daily drugs.

Juliet

Hi Juliet
What breed of dog is your Ellis? I am worried to think I caused the over exercise when my dog was a puppy ? What treatment did Ellis get if diagnosed a year ago but now back to being pain free? After I have had snoop on  3/4 rimadyl a day  & one Tramadol has been very pain free- took him out for a stroll last night and he tried to have  about 7 episodes of starting to charge about like a mad pup! of course didn't let him as being kept on a short lead, I think he has been suffering with this for a long time but as I assumed just laziness with not wanting to jump into the car so have been lifting him for that for months. Have another weeks course of rimadyl and changed over to diet food to get him to loss some of his excess weight .
Great to hear your experience of this condition knowing your Ellis is coping fine with it. I will not be going down the road of operations for snoop. He is 9 now so too old for as you said major surgery when the outcome will be the same..    

Hi

Ellis is a shorthaired german pointer and to be honest I have not done anything he just seems to have managed to get on with it on his own without the aid of painkillers etc.  As I said occassionly now he will ask to be lifted into the car, but if it's because his back hurts then he doesn't let on, I think he's just seeing if he can still get away with it !!  The only thing our vet said was not to walk him for too long, but he still likes an hour in the morning and the same in the evening, and at weekends they do get more and it doesn't bother him at all, he loves it, as I said you wouldn't even know there was anything wrong with him apart from he looks very stiff in the back end.  Don't know if this helps them but Ellis does not carry any extra weight at all.

Sorry I can't be of much help really.

Juliet

Hi
Very interesting you mention what breed Ellis is, my sister is a pet sitter and one of her day care is Mojo he has the same condition and is your breed. My snoop is much better now still not taking him far but will see how he gets on if he's had enough I will just turn back and bring him home. Considering last week I thought it might be curtains for him.  It is really good to hear that they can manage with this , as you would never know that he had a problem now.
You have been a great help thanks for your info  :)