Have read alot of the old posts on here and am wondering if I can have views on protein levels of 40% plus.
To me it is a lot but what do others think?

my workers during the shooting season get put up to 28% and they work darn hard. I wouldn't consider feeding a complete of 40% though, very high, who makes it?

I think you'll find products such as Orijen are 40+% protein.

OOh, I can just imagine my lot on a food with that high a protein.  I'd be scraping them of the ceiling!!

Ditto, mine when let of the lead would be in the next county. Why is the level so high in Orijen?

Not a clue.  Ktee would be the one to ask.  I know she recommends Orijen.  I personally use Skinners F&T Salmon and Rice which is 20% (just changed from Burgess) and seems to be suiting my gang fine.

As dogs in the wild eat mostly protein is it not reasonable to say a "carnivore" should be better equipped to cope on a higher protein diet? Those that feed raw, or even Naturediet and the like, are consuming a diet high in protein.

It is Orijen and I like the ingredient but am worried about the protein levels.
Currently using Pedigree professional but my pups now won't eat it and having looked at the ingredients there has got to be better.

I think it is the "quality" and digestibility of the protein that is the important thing here. I'm sure Ktee or Tohme would be able to explain better than I can!

Have a look at this link I think it is the right one that explains protien levels for dogs an unbiased too.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=207
Hope that works
Here is another one
http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/protein.html

as i understand it raw and BARF feeding don't usually hit those kind of levels due to the moisture content of the meat. basically in a kibble the proteins kind of concentrated, though i'm new to the dietary side so please correct me if i'm wrong guys. mastiff lover seems to be the one with the sums on it

Very interesting thankyou Floradora

> as i understand it raw and BARF feeding don't usually hit those kind of levels due to the moisture content of the meat. basically in a kibble the proteins kind of concentrated, though i'm new to the dietary side so please correct me if i'm wrong guys. mastiff lover seems to be the one with the sums on it

lol, trying to figure it all out gives me brain ache!!!

I've worked out, that my pup, if fed raw would be consuming a fractionally lower protein lever (based on weight of actual protein consumed, not %) than if he was fed a 26% protein complete kibble. Any way, as it is he's fed part complete and part tripe (the tripe is to keep the protein content down).

I would never reccomend a food with 40% protein for a growing/adult giant breed, or for a growing large breed as I am a firm believer in the protein = growth problems. BUT, I haven't a clue as to weather it would be suitable for a working/active dog, I imagine that higher protein would suit an active dog though, but then it all depends on the dogs individual needs/motabolism etc..???? ...so, all in all I'm not much help , sorry :(

Ktee feeds orijen I believe, she's always got good things to say about orijen :)

ta, knew you;d know :)

Why would you be worried about the protein levels? Would you happily feed your dog a block of tripe and chicken,  a chicken breast cooked,  3 or 4 chicken wings.   They are have a very high % of protien.

It is the quality of the meat.. ie the % from real meat.    It is when it is low protein it worries me as then it is either full of rice, grains, wheat etc  fillers.

Blue,

Actually - even a cooked, skinless chicken breast is lower in protein than Orijen.   A cooked, skinless chicken breast has 31g of protein per 100 g - so it's 31% protein compared to Orijen's 40%.  (A raw, skinless chicken breast has only 23g of protein per 100 grams.)

None of sources I've seen recommend protein levels for dogs anywhere near 30 or 40%.  If you feed BARF dogs are getting considerable less protein; given they are eating skin and bone along with meat - and for most a bit of veg as well. 

I believe Ktee has said a number of times she feds a very varied diet, not just Orijen.  

Personally, I would worry about feeding dogs a steady diet at very high levels of protein simply because there isn't a single scientific body that recommends protein at anywhere near that level for dogs.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/poultry-products/703/2

> Actually - even a cooked, skinless chicken breast is lower in protein than Orijen.   A cooked, skinless chicken breast has 31g of protein per 100 g - so it's 31% protein compared to Orijen's 40%.  (A raw, skinless chicken breast has only 23g of protein per 100 grams.)
>

Yes but you would feed more chicken breast than dehydrated dry food, so that the total protein consumed for a meal would be.  One is at least 80% moisture, and the other 10% moisture.

So for every 100g of chicken breast you would be feeding 20g of dry matter, so roughly the same as 25g of the complete dry.

You need to feed about 4 times the weight of wet food to dry.

So your 100g of 40% protein dry food is roughly the same as your 400g of raw food with a 10% protein levels in terms of how much protein the dog takes in.

Actually - even a cooked, skinless chicken breast is lower in protein than Orijen.   A cooked, skinless chicken breast has 31g of protein per 100 g - so it's 31% protein compared to Orijen's 40%.  (A raw, skinless chicken breast has only 23g of protein per 100 grams.)


Acutually   you are are incorrect ;-) that is impossible for a chicken breast to have less protein that origen.. come on think about it :-D :-D :-D   

You missed one fundemental flaw with your comparision .. it is 31 grams of meat based on a 100grams of fresh breast full with 62grams of water

You can't compare natural chicken breast to food like that.  MOST quality dog foods are DIRECT chicken meat which makes the protien content over 70% !!!!!!!!!!!!!

None of sources I've seen recommend protein levels for dogs anywhere near 30 or 40%.  If you feed BARF dogs are getting considerable less protein; given they are eating skin and bone along with meat - and for most a bit of veg as well.

Not sure what reading you are doing but it is different from mine. If you feed a raw meat diet you are feeding probably around 60% protien NOT considerably less. You CANNOT count water you have to look at dried % analysis for accurate %.

I dont' think Ktee, I or anyone recommends one food regardless of what it is.  Don't think that was in debate. The origen however has fantastic good ingredients and I am not a complete food feeder.
The protien is weighed as dry chicken.

That is my point to Barbara

however looking a bit closer at the chart  the % of Protein in the chicken breast excluding the water is a lot higher

I would need to sit and work it out accurately but if you completely removed all the moisture which I think was 62% this leave 38%, 3  2% was the protien. So that leave 8% of something else.

Using the 32 and 8 % only  that means the dried % would actually be 80% protien and 20% of other stuff..

I find it odd people panic about protien in the dog food but not at the other 70% of whatever..that worries me more.

You can't compare natural chicken breast to food like that.  MOST quality dog foods are DIRECT chicken meat which makes the protien content over 70% !!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sorry that doesnt' sound right and reads I am saying that the Protein % is 70% per bag.. sorry
what I meant was that the protien will be dired protein and this quanity willl be 70% pure protein.. IE if 50gs of 100gs is listed as protien then the real chicken content would be 70% of the 50g// hope this makes sense to someone :-D

woops, forgot about the dry matter to wet business

:-) that's OK but it makes your re think eh what we put in the complete foods.

Loved the "actually" though :-D .. everytime I see it written I visualise my daughter with her hands oh her hips :-D

Hello there

I can't comment on what levels of protein are good/bad ... I can only give you my story ...

Up until about 8 months ago I was feeding mostly Arden Grange Prestige and Nature Diet/Menu (depending on availability)  ... but I've been doing a lot of running with my Aussie (cross country half and full marathons to give some idea of how much running ... and most of that time she's off lead!) ... and to be honest I was struggling to keep any condition on her at all. She'll only eat so much quantity and then stops, and if you tempt her with more she has a bad stomach. Our vet suggested a high calorie paste but that was working out REALLY REALLY expensive.

Anyhows, I bit the bullet and tried out both Origen and Timberwolf (mixed with Nature Menu, Nature Diet, or tripe depending on what was around), and she's doing much much better. I don't like the fact that it's flown so far around the world, but it's keeping her looking lean and not skeletal.

That said, I'm not sure what these foods would do to her mental health if she got less exercise :) ... and maybe when my running slackens off we'll move back to Arden Grange as I was happy with that until our exercise stepped up.

I spent the best part of the night cooking and blending, lamb, chicken and turkey  mixing it with a little organic brown rice and veg then freezing it all.   Mind sit at my feet waiting for the drops :-)

It got my thinking of my mix it is about 70% meat ( not full of water as it is cooked)  20% brown organic rice and 10% veggies.

They don't eat this everyday but about 3 -4 times a week.

My two are small (Cairns) so I don't bother with cooking special for them. Their evening meal is always leftovers or extra I buy for them.  Last night they shared a trout filet.  Night before they had a bit of tandori chicken and the rest of the leftover sweet potato from Sunday's roast chicken dinner -- which meant that on Tuesday their breakfast was roast chicken and sweet potato.   Plus, they get veg for snacks and have a real liking for the fresh blueberries on my morning cereal :-)

Every night before bed they have a homemade biscuit - this month's recipe is organic turkey breast (on sale!), pumpkin, brown rice flour and oat bran.

... a dog food (Arden Grange, once in a while the JWB wet) breakfast about 5-6 times a week. 

Protein content - I haven't a clue!

so unbiased, that if you click on the link, they are advertising their own dog food  drfostersmith!

Its far cheaper for a company to make dog food with lower protein levels,so I don't think they would produce one with 40%+ protein if there weren't real benefits for the dogs fed on it.Grain free foods sell by word of mouth not advertising,most of the people I know who have tried them keep their dogs on them purely because they look so well.

Maisiesmum, I was not aware that they advertise their own food and as they are an american website I doubt we would get it here. ????????????? The two articles I posted were in good faith to give a general overview of protien levels, not to have snide remarks made thank you

I wish someone would put the protein myths to bed once and for all.

As some posts have pointed out, you have to consider whether you are comparing apples with apples or oranges.

You need to consider the following:

Moisture content
Dry matter equivalent
complete or incomplete protein.

There are no problems directly attributable to protein levels per se, despite the old wives tales that surround this issue.

> There are no problems directly attributable to protein levels per se, despite the old wives tales that surround this issue.

If protein is consumed in excess and the calories are not expended then it will be stored as fat, so reagrdless of old wives tales if high protein = high calorie it can lead to an overwiegt dog.
Before anybody says that excess protein is not stored as fat, Orijen state that 50% of the calorie content of thier food is derived from the protein content, a calorie is a calorie, regardless of where it comes from, when more calories are consumed than expended you end up with fat stores. Surely in this case, you have to be VERY carefull regarding feeding quantities to ensure your dog has it's optimum nutritional intake without piling on the pounds?

There are studies to 'prove' that high protein diets can cause growth problems and there are studies to 'prove' that it doesn't. All that we can do is listen to all the different views and make up our own minds, that is untill bodies other than those with a financial interest (ie, dog food companies and 'independant' studies funded by..... dog food companies??) research it fully.

Apart from the moisture content etc... balance is important to good diet, that isn't just balance of ingredients that is balance accross the nutritional profile. I know that Orijen has 'good quality' protein from the right sources (ie animal proteins) but when it's at a level of 40% I find it hard to imagine being able to feed a dog a nutritionaly balanced diet without it getting fat (or in the case of a puppy, growing like stink).

The dry matter value seems to thow things out a bit. If I feed my pup 400g of tripe he would be consuming 44g of protein and have a full belly, to get the same proetin from orijen he would only need to eat 100g of food, that is a tiny amount of food for such a large dog, it may be 'complete nutrition', but don't stomachs also need bulk to function? otherwise we would all be able to feed our dogs on vitamin tablets and other suppliments and not bother with actual food???