Hi,
Just like to ask bout your opinion on 2 male staffies living together as i have just taken in a 8 month old male last night and already have a 3 year old male, who has let him take his bone and they slept on the same bed last night, but when let out in the garden they run round play fighting then every so often it becomes a little heated but there has been no real biting! Am i making a rod for my own back here?
Ali :-)

Hi Ali - welcome to Champdogs :-D

Don't have a staffie myself (and not the person you replied to :-D) but, from what I know about the breed, a male to male pairing is very unlikely to work and very likely to end in bloodshed particularly as the younger one hits adolescence. I see some posters above have two males together although with very big gaps inbetween. Your 3 year old will coming into his own now as a young adult and, I hope this doesn't come across too harsh, but to be honest it sounds as if he could do with some more one to one training with you, so you could really do without the demands of a young pup in my opinion. I'd rehome the younger one asap personally. I certainly wouldn't be leaving them alone together in the meanwhile.

Good luck whatever you decide!

Hi Alipinks,  Sounds as if you let your heart rule your head but when you love the breed I understand how you can take things on.. Firstly my main concern is your older boy Sid how long has he had this phobia of his lead ? Maybe a halti will be easier to control him on walks then he will not be able to spin around. Find a dog training school and take him along to learn how to be good on a lead for you, because if he is not being walked on a daily basis then he will go mad when visitors come to your house- its only because he has loads of energy that needs burning off also mental stimulation is vital for a happy dog. Now you have a new boy Giz it sounds as if they get along very well sleeping together etc only best to not let them get carried away with there mucking about let them have a little play together then start throwing a ball for them both to burn energy off that way.  Always stop the dogs make him sit and give them a treat when they are behaving. Put sid first when feeding and with everything. By the sounds of it you've got your work cut out with these 2 as the Giz will benefit from a training school as well . Once you get a younger dog it will learn off the older- so if he is a nutter the younger one will think that is the way to behave. Its like having 2 unruly toddlers- be mum and put your foot down maybe clap your hands and say that;s enough now, when you can see it is escalating into more of a 'play fight'.   :) good luck  

We have a young male Stafford,2.5,who was a dream around other dogs and animals,until he got jumped on and bitten as a pup at a show.He changed from that moment and was a nightmare whenever he saw another dog.

After lots of training and hard work,he will now walk past and even stand next to other dogs and after almost a year and a half he passed his Good Citizen Bronze award,he was the only one in his group of 9 that passed.

It has been hard work,and i have to be very vigilant when out walking that he doesn't get ambushed by off-lead dogs,which would undo all our work.
All except one are crated when the house is empty as we live in a multi-dog household,and i dont want to come home to bloodshed and dead dogs.

We have two males,but it is hard work and i have to take one with me everytime i go into another room.

Our house is a sea of stair gates,one on every door,so that they dont have to be crated.

I would never leave them in the same room unnattended as if someone knocks at the door it would end up in a fight,the same as if i get up and someting is dropped and they both go to sniff it.

But these two will lay together on my lap,and will even clean each others ears and legs.

I know it would be my fault if they fight as i missed the signs.

Our other dog is a dream around 99% of other animals,the only dog he hates it our other boy.All of our dogs have been socialised from the very start.

2 females can be just as fiesty,especially when in season.

Always be on your guard and dont let your dog be hassled by other dogs.

I have been extremly lucky,my dogs have had torn ears and nose's,lame for weeks with puncture wounds on legs,we've had big vet bills.

I can only tell you my experiences,people read them and think "it will never happen to me,i know my dogs" please dont let yours be the next tragic one that is told.

Hello to you all and thank you for the welcome and your advice :-)
Sid is a very placid dog but he certainly has issues, I have never mis treated him but if i get the lead out he hides and shakes, if i raise my voice to my children he goes to the back door and shakes, he has had never been ill treated and used to go out for walks.......the only thing i can think of is the fact thatt i split up with my husband 2 years ago, the arguments etc that occurred in this time may have affected Sid (pretty sure it did :-() but 2 years on he still wont go on the lead, he will willingly go out the door without it! but he is not trained enough to stay by my side and not run in the road. I took in the puppy as i have a passion for the breed and thought it might help Sid in some way? thought they would learn from each other? I left them together for half an hour while i went to the shop and when i came back they both asleep together on the sofa (that is Sid's bed) So confused as to what i should do :-(
Ali 

Hi Ali

I would invest in a solid crate and crate train the younger boy.It is better to be safe than sorry.

Sounds like Sid has been a bit stressed by the argumant which lead to change,but with patience he will come round.

Change your lead,and the place where you keep it.

See if he will let you put the different lead on in the garden and walk him there for a few steps,bribe him if you have to at the start.

Hope this help.

Don't leave alone together whatever you do. Not for a minute, and from what you say maybe home the younger one quickly to someone without one but is Staffie savvy, maybe ring Staffy Rescue for your area. But keep them apart.

The solid crate idea above is a very sensible one.

Its strange that you mention about crating these dogs.. I always find that dogs fight- either because they don't know each other or when in a multi dog house hold fights start because of wanting attention or food first ? Seems to be only when us people are around?  The only time when they get out of hand is when play gets too rough , But the only time dogs really have a full on play session is when with the owner around  anyway?
I am sure that sid would of attacked this pup seriously by now if he did not like him, but they seem to get on really well.
The main issue will be once Giz gets to 18 months old and will start to try and boss Sid and get the upper hand.. I would advise castrating them both so they don;t have any sexual frustrations of testosterone so that would stop that problem ever arising. Maybe get sid done now then in 6 months time get Giz done. Sounds to me there are going to be great companions for each other.
About the issue with his lead it does sound as if he has been affected by your ex leaving- it affects the dynamics of the group, go slowly with him clip his lead on to feed him his tea he'll soon realise its not something to be worried about.  

Hello again,
Thank you all for your replies, but i am even more confused now from reading such a variation of opinions :-S I tend to be thinking more along the same lines as 'magica' as they do tend to be fighting for play (which isn't violent) until one of them has had enough, but the main cause of the fighting is for attention!i left them alone while i went for a bath, when i came back in they both fast asleep on the same settee, i really don't want to risk either of them getting hurt but surely that would have happened if it was going to or am i just being stupid thinking that? Thank you for the lead advice too, Sid does seem a little more intruiged by the lead as Giz goes out for a walk and gets excited when i get the lead out.

Hi

My 4 year old staff Maisie loves people although she can get a bit rough when playing. She also loved other dogs untill a couple of years ago. Three boxer's attacked her when we were out, she ran over to me and jumped into my arms and they were jumping up trying to bite her. Of course she was too heavy so i had to put her down. She was cowering between my legs and they kept biting her and i could see blood it was awfull. I tried putting mt hand out to stop them ans got bit. It seemed to go on forever i was screaming at the lady to get them off, she did manage to get one but could'nt get the others she was just stood there doing nothing not even calling them. I started shouting ''no'' at them and kicking them. Eventually they gave up. I'll never understand why she was walking them all together off lead when she could'nt controll them. Ever since Maisie has been funny with most dogs and its a shame because it was'nt her fault.

hi i have a 13 week old staffy she is fine wiv people and kids but has started to show signs of aggression when she shes other dogs she growls and snarls at them but then she can play nice as well so we dont really no wots goin on wiv her. it started when she met my aunties lab who is 4-5 yrs old they where playing really nicely it was the 3rd time they met all of a sudden she started going for my aunties dog and started snapping at her face and sounded really nasty my aunties dog didnt do anything bac so i quickly grabed my pup for a few mins then they played again but it happened again so we left there. and now we r really worried as wen she sees another dog she gets nasty sounding does any1 no wot might be happening? y she is being like this? its well confusing as she dont always do it and she can play nice wiv some dogs just need a bit of advice really?

it sounds like shes just being a pup (hard to tell without seeing the behaviour). Puppies can make an awfull noise when playing, it can sound quite scarey. the fact that the adult lab never reacted to the pup does suggest it's just play, but when pup is a little older most adults wont tollerate this and they will tell her off. The best way for her to learn the rules of doggy play is to be able to play with other dogs (always supervised in case things get too rough - even play can need to be stopped if it's going OTT). She'll probably do this behaviour when she is most exited/when she feels comfortable with the other dog.

the thing is she was playing nicely with no sound then she got nasty and as she is a staffy i think im more worried then i should be. i did go puppy classes this morning and there was another staffy there and she was doing the same with other dogs so i really dont no if its normal or not.
i think the thing i need is a staffy expert or someone who has had staffys all there life to come and see her when she is with other dogs and tell me if its right or not as its my 1st staffy pup and like i say just really worried becayse i really dont want her to be aggressive with other dogs.

hiya, staffies can be really quite hyper especially when they are puppies, without obviously seeing the pup it does sound to me as if it is only cocky playing! especially if the lab is a bit more laid back she will be trying to 'get it going' because they are very excitable as pups, my rottie is still like this she is nearly 2yrs old but she will try her damn hardest to get my dogue de bordeaux to run round like a nutter,  but it doesnt work! thats what i think anyway, i wouldnt start to panic or stop her from socializing with other dogs because they learn so much from good dog socialization, and if you feel nervous around other dogs with her she will pick that up and think 'have i got something to be worried about here?' she is just learning all her social skills at the moment, she needs tyo learn what is acceptable in the doggy world and what isnt,

xroxie buster and babys mum x

Hi cheekychow,

I've got one of the quick, small terriers. He's an entire male. To be frank I avoid bull breeds I don't know like the plague as I don't trust them with other dogs and I often don't trust the owners. Not wishing to be offensive but if I had a penny for the amount of staffie or pit cross owners I see walking their dogs off lead in the street, swinging them on bits of tree they've broken off in the park, or offering no apology when their dog has a go - unmuzzled and again, off lead. The bulk of the dogs are entire males.

Many also don't seem to understand that the way staffie pups play can seem incredibly rude and overbearing to many other breeds and that in itself can cause problems (I would say the same of Lab' behaviour in a different way). Many of the owners I have met are unwilling or simply don't understand why they need to educate their pup to behave less roughly with other breeds.

I've read most of the posts here and fortunately you seem, responsible and aware of the capacity your breed has to cause harm. Yes, lots of other breeds can be dog aggressive but bull breeds will go in for the kill once roused -i.e the paw on back being an example. So, unless I know the dog and owner I give these breeds a very wide berth. I like the breed though and appreciate their many good qualities- I just think their are too many learner dog owners trying to impress by owning a Ferarri of a dog. Because the dogs are so great with humans and kids and they see that their dog is likely to come off best in an altercation they forget their responsibilities.

Anyway, that's my whinge over.

> Because the dogs are so great with humans and kids and they see that their dog is likely to come off best in an altercation they forget their responsibilities.
>

That is precisely why I am so cautious because most of the time I know that my dog will come off best particularly when it is a nippy wee dog she is up against. 

> Many of the owners I have met are unwilling or simply don't understand why they need to educate their pup to behave less roughly with other breeds.
>

Ironically, the best way any puppy can learn doggy manners is to mix with other dogs, it is very hard for a human to teach a puppy how to behave with other dogs. Each individual dog has thier own level of tollerence, a puppy needs to learn how to interpret the signals that mean 'stop, I'm not playing anymore', owners of course should intervene if play becomes to rough.
Any breed of dog is capable of being an over-bearing, rough-playing puppy, this isn't something only found in the bull breeds, lack of socialisation can encourage/escalate rough play. So allthough an owner needs to be aware that thier staffy could grow up to be dog that is capeable of causing damage (as can any dog with a set of teeth), all dog owners should be aware that other pups need to interact to be able to grow into an adult dog that is a pleasure to meet, instead of an undersocialised terror of an adult who has never been given the chance to learn how to interact properly.
It must be hard for staffie owners to socialise thier pups, so many people don't seem to want to have anything to do with them :(

mastifflover,

I do agree with you about the socilisation issue.  Hand on heart the real problem, as ever, is rarely the dog but the wretched humans and their egos. Unfortunately those perceived as fighting breeds whether, Staffs, Akita's, Sharpei's etc.. attract too many of the wrogn people and people who don't know the first thing about dogs.

I live in the city and whilst in our local park I came across a young chap with a large pit cross, entire male. I got into conversation with him, partly because I wanted both of us to get our dogs on lead in order to ensure control. He said that he didn't know the breed of his dog or the cross and would not be getting him castrated because he didn't believe in it. Eventually he owned that it was a pit x dogue de bordeaux cross and that he had paid £1000 for it. Now, you put all that information together and it sounds very dodgy indeed. I own a pedigree and paid half that.

To make matters worse I 've seen a number of these dogs about, at least four, all similar type and markings.

We've had many dog attacks in the park, nearly always involving one of the breeds mentioned and in one instant, a child was badly mauled and bitten.

We've had to fight our local park authorities tooth and nail (forgive pun) to stop dogs being banned off lead. However, the over breeding and shoddy ownership of the above breeds is in danger of spoiling it for the rest of us. I imagine that with the credit crunch more will be bred as a way of lining pockets. Disgraceful.

> the real problem, as ever, is rarely the dog but the wretched humans and their egos. Unfortunately those perceived as fighting breeds whether, Staffs, Akita's, Sharpei's etc.. attract too many of the wrogn people and people who don't know the first thing about dogs.

That is exactly the problem :(  dogs bought as status symbols with no thought to being a responsible owner.
The problem must be so much more noticable in the city, I live in a small town on the edge of the countyside and allthough there are plenty of dogs there are also lots of different places to walk, so dogs don't end up concentrated in parks, this also means there is less opportunity for the idiots to be able to parade thier status symbol dogs about (no captive audience).

>Eventually he owned that it was a pit x dogue de bordeaux cross and that he had paid £1000

I can't see there being a honest reason for that mating to have happened :(

> in one instant, a child was badly mauled and bitten.

That is awfull, something that even when wounds are healed, will stay with that child forever.

>However, the over breeding and shoddy ownership of the above breeds is in danger of spoiling it for the rest of us.

Unfortunatley it isn't just the fighting breeds that attract the wrong owners, the guarding breeds do to (like my soppy Mastiff) as long as the pratts can continue to be pratts, the rest of us decent people have to worry about meeting these sorts of people and worry about our breeds being banned because of the actions of the morons :(

On a slightly different tack I suppose we ask a lot of dogs, especially in the city, where differences in body size, face shape, tail and ear length, all impact on the way dog's communicate with each other. A long muzzled, prick eared dog may not have the faintest idea what a snub faced breed is trying to say to it, unless they've had plenty of controlled and positive exposure to that breed. It's almost like cultural differences. Also dog's bred to kill, like terriers, will be far more reactive to any perceived insult than more biddable breeds like gun dogs.

I think size difference is one of the most problematic. I know dogs are not supposed to be aware of size but a huge, seven month old puppy that towers over a cocky adoloscent male of a smaller breed can easily cause offense, even though none is intended. It also causes problems between owners. Perhaps we all need to educate ourselves more about the quirks of different breeds.

As a city dog owner I feel I have to have eyes in the back of my head and have to monitor my dog's body language constantly in order to avoid trouble, which, fingers crossed, I have managed to do thus far. The only problem I have had in my very mildmannered boy, is when a young Boxer male jumped over his back in play. Mine was furious. It was unexpected for me and just goes to show how much one has to learn about dog etiquette from the dog's point of view. Also some dogs are much bigger sticklers for the rules than others. Bottom line is owning a dog in the city, if you are responsible, is quite hard work as I think owners have to monitor and intervene a lot. I don't agree with the notion of letting the dogs sort it out between them- because of all the breed differences.

freelancerukuk
I think your post raises a lot of good points, I've experienced how a huge puppy doing nothing wrong can cause a dog to feel the need to snap & growl :( I'm sure plenty of other people will agree with your observations and will join in to make for a good long discussion :)
but as it takes the post off of the original thread's topic it would be locked if it continued here :(  Would you consider moving it to the 'general' board  or start a new thread with it on the behaviour board(copy & past would save re-typing) ??  ...... pleeeeease :) :)