hi every one hoping for some advise

i do try to be a responsible dog owner although i keep large breed dogs IMO the breed is not a problem unless it has been in the hands of idiots.

one if my bitches i bought last year has just attacked a dog while my son had her out for a walk he went to the local shop and tied her outside on the railings she saw a dog on the other side of the road and broke the clip off her lead and ran across the road and attacked a jack Russell the owner of the jack Russell said she pulled her tail to try and get her off but my dog would not let go my son heard the commotion and ran out and pulled her off.

she has put 1 puncture hole in the other dog on his neck but as far as i know this is all.

i bought this dog last year from a couple that told me they were emigrating to America so had to re home her when i arrived at the house to see her she was covered in bit wounds around her neck approx 100 or more she was in a real state and i felt sorry for her they said that she had been attacked by a staffie at the park ans said she was good with children and other dogs she came home with me into my house with my rottie bitch male bully and female bully she was not a problem.

when we started walking her we found that she became aggressive with other dogs (never getting the chance to get them) and after trying to deal with this for around 8 months we sought advise from a behaviorists, he felt that she was not dog aggressive but wanted to play and has no manners.

she has not attacked another dog until today as i had been avoiding dogs which is not hard living in a village.

i feel gutted that this has happened and that two children witnessed their dog being attacked by this huge dog i now do not know what to do.

please can you give any constructive advise.

The main thing is to never, ever leave a dog (ANY dog) unattended. You need to be there to make sure nothing can happen, and also to make sure your dog isn't stolen. It simply is not safe these days to tie a dog up outside a shop. Dogs do not act the same without us as they do when we are there. And if you are out if sight, you don't know what happens to the dog -a child could tease it, hit it, another dog could have a go, and you won't know what set things off, but could end up with the blame if your dog reacts. Chances are this would not have happened under normal circumstances.

i understand where your coming from but it was my 19yr old son that tied her up and not me we also live in a very quiet village and dogs do not (usually) get stolen from here (i no we should trust no one) and people don't usually approach a bullmastiff with out the owner being there actually most people avoid us like the plague.

she is also totally trustworthy with kids even if they tease i have 5 sons from 4-19 so no problem there.

I think you need to find a better behaviourist, in the mean time, keep her muzzled when out and make sure she is never left alone while out.

I guess as you already know the damage your bitch did to the JR that you have spoken to the owner already, with apologies perhaps some flowers to show you care and are so very sorry that this happened and of course any vet bills not covered by insurance. If you only know through hearsay I would do my very best to seek out this person, you know how you would feel if it were your dog.

Secondly, I agree completley with Marianne that I would never, ever tie a dog up outside a shop for all the reasons already given, God forbid if whilst this had happened that a child got bitten in the process, it is bad enough that a dog was attacked, who of course is someones beloved pet too.

I don't know how old your son is but if below 16, I wouldn't actually put any dog in the hands of a child to walk alone for so many reasons. So I would put a stop to that and leaving a dog tied up at the shops. Just noticed your son is 19

Advice Re: helping your bitch, obviously the behaviourist was wrong and I expect that what happened to her in her past has a lot to do with it, JR's are naturally yappy dogs, whether the dog yapped at your bitch to encourage the break to get to it, or whether just the sight was enough I guess we don't know as no-one witnessed it, did the JR's owner state if any barking or growling between the two occurred first? If barking did preceed it could be that this worried her of an iniment attack so she decided to take first bite.

when we started walking her we found that she became aggressive with other dogs

Was this behaviour still happening prior to the attack?  If so you have only one choice but to muzzle her, you know it is not play now but she means business. :-(

I know we usually feel for the owner of the dog attacked, but I do feel for you too, you must be devastated that this happened. Dogs, no matter how well trained, no matter what temperament are always firstly dogs, without us they will always revert back to their natural instincts a dog will attack for only 4 root reasons. Territory, breeding rights, food, or what it believes to be for it's safety and survival.

Territory, can be ruled out as it was at the shops which she would not regard as her stomping ground, mating, and food can be discounted so I would summise your dog attacked through fear, and put her survival first. I would expect due to her being previously attacked.

You can certainly work on desensitising her, it is a shame that your previous behaviourist did not start the programme, stage 1 you can try sitting on a park bench or somewhere that dogs frequent getting her to sit with you and giving her a treat or good girl everytime she will not bark at passing dogs, you would need to do this daily and for quite a few weeks, but it does eventually stop your dog from barking and reacting to others.

For now personally I would muzzle her, and make sure whoever walks her is strong enough to hold her, she has had a taste of fighting back now, she may wish to strike first again, I wouldn't take the risk at all.

She obviously has issues, I would have a good look for another behaviourist too, I hope that the little dog is ok, and I hope that you are too.

if it was my dog i would be mortified and can understand from her side as well.

as i said before children are not an issue she is very very good with kids if she weren't she would not be with me know.i would have no second thought about having her PTS IF THERE WAS ANY SIGN OF AGGRESSION TO KIDS.

my son is 19 6.1 and well built to he is strong enough to walk her ha made a bad judgment call by leaving her tied at the village store.

the behaviorists came out to see me at my house and was here for 2hrs we talked in length about the hole pack and we also took her for a walk and she meet his dog he then said he had no problems with her attending his training classes and i go with her every Sunday so she is being desensitized and she has been doing really well.

my son had not come home and told me about the incident as he had not returned home but the owner who i know as this is a village every body knows every body came to my door and told be what had happened i did apologize profusely and i also offered to pay any vet bills but as there was a trainee vet present at the time she checked to dog over and said there was no reason to seek a vet as there was just one small puncture wound and no other damage to the jr.

i have also tried a mussel before seeking advise from the experts and can not find one that is short enough for my short nosed bullmastiff.

In no way do I want to imply that I think what happened was not horrible and dreadfully regrettable (especially as children witnessed it) but can I point out that I can't help thinking that if a dog of this size had really wanted to hurt a Jack Russell and had managed to get hold of him there would be more than a single puncture wound that did not need veterinary attention.

Please don't get me wrong I definitely think it would be better for, you, your dog and your son if you walked him for the foreseeable future and certainly it might be interesting to see his reaction to other Jack Russells, when you have control. All I'm saying is, this is the same dog that has been great with your dogs, your children and I sense has started to become an important member of your family.  Also from what you say something happened, possibly involving a staffie, before you had it and therefore you obviously have to be careful but in my opinion (bearing in mind that neither I nor you were there) this incident alone is not a sign of SERIOUSLY aggressive dog.

> this incident alone is not a sign of SERIOUSLY aggressive dog.

i agree, but as the dog is so big & powerfull and has demonastrated she will break her lead in order to bite another dog, the potenial for serious injury to others is there, weather the dog means serious business or not. This behaviour can not be left to escalate and needs addressing.

>i have also tried a mussel before seeking advise from the experts and can not find one that is short enough for my short nosed bullmastiff.

have you tried the cage sort of muzzle or a specific 'bullmastiff' muzzle?
These are Bullmastiff muzzles, but they're from the US : http://dog-breed-bullmastiff.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3
you can get similar muzzles in most pet shops and I'm sure you can find one online from the UK, eBay normally has plenty. :)

thank you for your reply Aussie Mad

this dog has excellent bit inhibition and i agree if she really meant to harm this dog that she would have but she does still have a big problem i do not deny this.

when i walk her and we come across another dog she jumps about barking not growling this is why the behaviorist does not believe she is dog aggressive but just over playful and unsocialized (before we had her).

he also said that if it was dog aggression she would not live happily with other dogs.

i have been working very hard with her and have been walking with another dog from my village to get her used to other dogs and she has even been let off with this dog and played nicely of course not on the first week of walks but on the second when i fealt that she was 100% with him, this was a male bullmastiff cross.

the dog that she attaced today is a bitch and from speeking to someone how knows her dog said that the jr barks at other dogs alot.(no excuse for my dogs behaviour ) but i am trying to understand why my dog after all the training that i have been doing with her has been mad enough to brake the clip off her lead.

my bitch has also been  fine with my 3 1/2 week old pups with no problems at all and the mother of the pups is happy to have her near them.

mastifflover i will be taking a look on ebay for those mussels i have not been able to find anything like these in pet shops.

"but i am trying to understand why my dog after all the training that i have been doing with her has been mad enough to brake the clip off her lead."

I think it can be explained by the fact that the dog did not have you there.  For example, in the kitchen I can leave a ham sandwich on the side, and if I am in the kitchen my dogs don't steal it. If I am not there they would take it. A dog on its own with no human making decisions for it, will make a decision of its own. Your dog is simply not advanced enough in its training to be able to be trusted without direct supervision.

I think that you should be the only one to take your dog out at the moment, as you are the one working with the behaviourist.

PS I dont wish to be rude, but if you are going to search ebay, search for a MUZZLE, and not a mussel, or you will likely get a pile of seafood :-)

Hiya,  as you have read my dog was attacked yesterday must be something in the air!!!! But seriously now, if you feel have as bad as i did when my dog got attacked i feel for you because it is a horrible experience either way, but can i say that i had my buster quite an unpredictable rottie, and for my own piece of mind i decided in the end that whenever i walked him he would be muzzled in public because i felt it just wasnt worth the risk, that way i could let him have a run off lead and not be so up tight about another dog appearing from nowhere and having to break up a fight. Its hard to say why your dog felt the need to attack the jr, maybe it was because you or whoever had taken her? out was not there and felt a need to protect itself, or just warn the jr off? especially if it has maybe given your dog a bit of mouth ! And i also agree that if your dog meant to do some damage i am sure it would of done, especially on such a small dog. If you had any doubts at all that your dog would behave in this way i dont mean to sound awful but from my prospective as my poor dog was attacked yesterday your dog should have been muzzled i am sorry, i also think that to leave it tied up outside a shop unsupervised if this aggression was a posibility was a bit irresponsible, what would have happened if a small child had got inbetween a fight? I am so glad that my daughter had gone home yesterday before babys attack happened because if she had been in the middle of it, i apologise if you think i sound unreasonable but i am still upset about yesterday,

The main point i am trying to say is that you knew the aggression was there, and there was always the possibility i cant understand how you let it happen, it should be muzzled in public, especially if you HAVE  to leave a dog unsupervised outside a shop,

It is an awful thing to happen on both sides, but really it could have been prevented imo

roxie and buster and babys mum x

roxie

coming from some one who left their unpredictable rottie in their house for at least a month with their children i find your comment a bit upsetting.

i can understand how you feel but if you read my post you will see that i have had this bitch for a year now and i have never allowed anything like this to happen i trusted my son to take her for a walk which at 19 yrs old is perfectly capable of controlling her he made a bad judgment call.

i must also point out that i said i thought she was dog aggressive and sought help and was told she was not.
she also attends training every week and has been fine
she lives with other dogs with out problems
she lives with small children with out problems
she also is with three week old puppies with out problems.

i did not feel that a muzzle was necessary as she has never actually bitten another dog but jumps and barks at them.

with training we have been able to walk past other dogs with out barking or jumping/lunging
i posted on here for help as you did. not to be told things i already knew (don't leave the dog untended out side a shop) at forty yrs old i know this, but please remember it was my son that left her not me.

my be i just didn't realize just how much she needed me for security but we can all make mistakes ones that will  not repeat.

I think there is no need to snap at roxieandbust...you are perfectly aware that she is in shock following a dog attack. It is upsetting for all of us to read of eventslike this, even if they do happen as in this case through ignorance rather than arrogance. It is clear that you have worked hard with your bitch and I accept that you were simply naive in believing that your girl should be safe without supervision after such a relatively brief period of training and desensitization. To be honest, in cases of dog aggression, whether to people OR other dogs, I am not sure whether it is safe to ever trust such a dog to be left unsupervised.
I am glad that you are going to look for a muzzle, and that you do not intend to leave your dog alone again.

Benson firstly my rottie was not left in my house roaming about waiting for another incident to happen he was left in the kitchen or in the garden and if he had to be around my kids he was muzzled, and i am sorry but how do you know you cant get a muzzle for your dog if you have never contemplated getting one, if you were told your dog was fine?, because my dog had one the moment he started with any aggression, yes maybe i had my dog for almost a month after the attack but what am i suppose to do? come on answer that? because no rescue would take him with his problems? throw him in the streets? or maybe leave him somewhere, just give him away to any tom dick or harry >? absoulutley NOT so get real, your dog attacked another and yes its upsetting but as far as i am concerned imo as i have said it could have been prevented, you knew the possibility whereas i didnt, do not compare that situation to mine it was completly diffrerent, i knew my dog did not like people coming in our house, as far as i was concerned he loved us all, he always showed it, so a lunge in what i considered to be an unprovoked attack was very shocking indeed towards a member of the family, our dog was raised from a pup 10 weeks old, i have had them for years never ever had i had this sort of thing happen, whereas you took on this dog having being told there could be a problem, sorry i going now because you dont understand what i am trying to say and you have tried to twist my ex problems round to be releavant to this and it is not at all, at the end of the day and i am sticking to my guns, this shouldnt have happened, muzzle and not being left unsupervised, my eldest is 15 and she would never tie a dog up outside a shop.

Back again to apologise if i was harsh, my episode has really shook me up, and i may be taking it out in the wrong way i am sorry. I cant even take my dogs out anymore, even with my hubby yesterday i had to come home,

x

i posted on here asking for help and constructive advise instead it has turned into a slating.

you have turned this around to make me a totally iresposable owner who let her dog out in the street to attack every one.

i have what i thought is a loving family pet at the time i brought her home at two yrs old i had no idea that she could be aggressive i was told she had been attacked but once i walked her and she was barking and lunging at others what was i supposed to do pass her on to any tom dick or harry.

no instead i worked very hard with her.

she still is a very loving and loyal pet and will not be passed on to some one else to deal with.
i have bought a muzzle in the past and as i stated it did not fit it was the largest that i could get but she still got it off.

i was told by my son that he was going to walk in the opposite direction to the shop so had no reason to believe that she was to be left unattended.

i will not be responding to any more comments from you roxieand buster as you are obviously taking you anger from you ordeal out on me i am sorry this happened to you as i am also very sorry that it happened to the jr but i have made my apologize to the owner and offered to pay any vet bills which there are none i am now going to get ready for training as i do every Sunday and will be talking in length with my trainer who is also my behaviorists and will be asking for some more one to one work on her as i never want anything like this to happen again.

p.s i know what i would have done if you rottie had been mine and it would have taken 30 mins including traveling each to their own.

Good thats great, i hope it goes well, but it wasnt your rottie he was mine and i have done the best for him, i have apologised, but still you have to go on thinking you know best the best for my dog too, anyway at least this wont happen again unlike some dog owners, i wish you well.

Before i go, i wasnt suggesting that you pass her on either? maybe that was another dig at me? but as i have said different situation, my rottie wouldnt have been rehomed if i didnt have young children, my children had to come first, and i am upset that you are giving the impression that i passed his problems for someone else to deal with, it doesnt make you a better person you know, this is getting childish now.

I cant even take my dogs out anymore, even with my hubby yesterday i had to come home,


This is the saddest thing I have read for a long time.

To anyone whose dog has attacked another, look at poor Roxieandbust, this is what happens in the aftermath, this is why most of us will say, muzzle, muzzle, muzzle, it is not just the dogs that are affected some for life at that, it is the owners too. It is so important for anyone who has a dog that is dog aggressive to muzzle it.

roxieandbust, I hope that you will get your confidence back again soon.

I really sympathise with whats happened, don't be too hard on yourself the main thing is the JR was not hurt so no real harm done, personally I think you've been lucky with this minor attack as it could of been far more worse. My dog killed my neighbours dog outside by my car in 2003 and I have never recovered from it. I muzzled my boy after the incident but like you said it is hard to find a muzzle that fits their face properly mine ended up scrapping his so bad that the hair never grew back properly. So I used it for 6 months then stopped, people might have a go at me for that, but I just keep him on a lead and am always aware of potential trouble.

If your dog wasn't the breed he was if say another JR or collie I expect the owner would laughed it off.

>> If your dog wasn't the breed he was if say another JR or collie I expect the owner would laughed it off.

I doubt it. Roxieandbust's DDB has been attacked by a staffie, that's similar to a JRT attacking a Collie and she is devestaded. It doesn't matter if the attacking dog is small or large it is awfull being on the recieving end and is NEVER a laughing matter.

I have had a dog-aggressive dog in the past, as soon as I knew he was like that he wore a muzzle before stepping foot out of the house, bald patch left or not there was no way he would get the chance to hurt another dog. Keeping him on a lead wasn't enough as you are always going to meet a dog that will approach your dog, if you know it will fight it is down-right irresponsible not to have it muzzled. 
If I had my dog attacked by somebody else and it turned out they knew it was aggressive, but never muzzled it, I would do all I could to get that dog re-homed or PTS. Aggressive dogs can be managed, but they need a responsible owner, taking an aggressive dog out of your home without it wearing a muzzle is irresponsible IMO.

Thank you, for that, that is what i think .

roxie im sorry but you must have been posting at the same time as me im sure you must be petrified of going out now and i can understand why.

i have been to training to day and spent most of my time in tears as i have for the past 24 hrs i don't think unless it has happens to you that it is ALMOST as distressing to me as it is to jr owner.

i am also contemplating whether to have her put to sleep as at the moment im not sure if i can cope with this.

i must reiterate that i was wrong to trust my son to walk her i admit that.

the class that i attend is not for obedience it is for dogs with behavior problems it took some walking off before she was calm and relaxed but there is two jrs there and she was fine with them it is not a breed thing as my instructor said she is living in the moment and that i must not send my tension down the lead which today i did find difficult.

i am not looking for a argument i really do feel for you and understand where all the negative comments come from but please i really am trying to be responsible.

i have ordered a muzzle and will not take her out in my village without one now and if i can not get her to a level that i feel i can trust her i will have to look for either a new home for her which i dont think i could do or she will be PTS.

Benson that is how i felt with my rottie, if it hadnt of been for the police man i think he woul dhave had to been pts, i really found it a stressful time, but luckily so far so good with that, as long as you have the time and the effort needed for her i am sure she will be fine, but i would personally keep her muzzled in public no matter what, dogs do live in the moment, my trainer told me that, if you have no problems in the home with her i am sure things will work out, i would have perservered with my rottie but for my kids who of course come first, but that was diffrent i must say though a dog aggressive dog does make a nice walk very stressful, but if that was the only worry as long as she was muzzled i am sure you will be fine.

roxie buster and babys mum x

> that's similar to a JRT attacking a Collie

Actually you know yourself it isn't as the bull breed jaws are very strong and have the potential to do much more damage

> Aggressive dogs can be managed, but they need a responsible owner, taking an aggressive dog out of your home without it wearing a muzzle is irresponsible IMO.

The owner of this dog has been responsible and had been advised that her dog wasn't agressive. The only misjudgement was that of her adult sons in leaving the dog outside of the shop.
I must admit though I am left wondering if it was an over exhuberent approach that set the JRT and its owners into a state of frenzy that escalated this event, NO I'm not saying it was their fault . However thats pure speculation on my part.
As neither the owner or the owners son witnessed the full event they will  have to accept the frightened view of the JTR owner and as a responsible owner is now making plans to ensure it doesn't happen again.

I must admit though I am left wondering if it was an over exhuberent approach that set the JRT and its owners into a state of frenzy that escalated this event, NO I'm not saying it was their fault . However thats pure speculation on my part.

this is a possibility as when she was assessed this what the trainer thought of her reactions to other dogs were and that she did not approach with manners she really does love to play with other dogs but in a situation like this when owner panic things can get out of hand and i don't know how good the jr is with other dogs there is the possibility that my dog had got excited and wanted to play and the jr may not be good with other dogs but as i was (wrongly) not there i will never know.

had she not been tied to a fixed object then i don't think the catch on her lead would have broken and i would have controlled the situation.

> i have ordered a muzzle and will not take her out in my village without one now

That is great :)
My comments above weren't directed at you, you were under the impression that your bitch was not dog-aggressive and although with hind-sight the situation could have been avoided it was a mistake. Mistakes can happen to all of us.
Simply muzzling her while you figure out weather this was a one-off incident or not is fantastic. Taking her to classes for dogs with behaviour problems is also great :)
From what you  say she is a great pet at home with the family, she just needs carfull handling while out (at least for the time being) and a stronger lead.

I walk my Mastiff on a chest harness and a halti harness with a seperate lead for each, I've had a much smaller dog break it's lead before, so I'd rather err on the side of caution and have 2 leads on such a powerfull dog, even though he's very friendly and walks like a dream on-lead, after owning an aggressive dog in the past i don't like to take any chances (I am probably OTT, but I am a worryier and like to be prepared!!!)

> and that i must not send my tension down the lead which today i did find difficult.

With your dog wearing a muzzle, you should feel more confidant.
I strongly suggest using a chest harness, I thought they were stupid for big dogs, because they pull with thier shoulders - I thought they must be able to pull worse with a harness on - WOW how wrong was I, with a harness you have control of the bit the power comes from. Since my pup has worn the harness, my confidence has grown, he in turn picks up on my confidence as is so responsive it makes me proud :) He used to pull like a trian to get to people & dogs, (he LOVES people and wants to play with all dogs), but at 56kg i was struggling to hold him, now he is even heavier than that and I can walk him past people and dogs with him on a slack lead.
With bigger dogs/dogs with a strong will, you really need to feel confidant or they will take advantage.
You can get control of your bitch and stop this happening again, you just need to feel confidant about it and think ahead. If she wasn't left on her own this may never have happened, it's easy to make sure she isn't left alone in public again - that may be all that's needed.

i do use the halti harness when on walks this one has a clip at the chest and at the back and yes they are great for control i also bought the halti training lead with two clips so it acts as rains and you don't have to cope with two leads this is the lead that she broke the clip on so will have to look hard for a lead with strong large clips but as i said in the other post i don't think it would brake without be attached to a fix object.

> so will have to look hard for a lead with strong large clips but as i said in the other post i don't think it would brake without be attached to a fix object.

True, being tied to something that didn't give would have added to the stress on the lead. I have a great lead, really strong with brass fixings, recomended by other Mastiff owners, I'll PM you a link to where I got it from, it is very strong :)

About 3 weeks ago I was walking in the forest with my 2 toy poodles when I met a lady with 2 dogs one being a westie and the other a border terrier more like a border terroist in my mind. Anyway this woman asked whether my 2 were dogs or bitches (they are both dogs) when I said this she said oh well it should be ok as ziggy(border terrier) only dislikes bitches, so she let her off the lead. The horrible thing then ran straight at my younger dog and started attacking him. I naturally intervened as my poor dog couldn't get up and was yelping and got bitten on the hand by this little horror. The lady did grab her dog as quick as she could and apologised and asked if we were alright but had the cheek to say her dog had reacted like that as my 2 had barked at her when we had met previously walking on the pavement when all the dogs were on leads. A couple of days later I met a young woman with a patterdale terrier again of the lead in the forest who said that she was having problems with it being aggressive towards other dogs, I immediately called my 2 away but she said oh don't worry he would have been aggressive straight away if he was going to. I was shocked but on reflection cannot understand way owners let their dogs of the lead if there dog tends to be aggressive.

this is why my dogs only ever do off lead if we are up the field where i can see dogs coming for miles their recall is good i would not just walk through woods or public park and let any of my dogs off lead.

even though my other dogs are good and dog friendly (except this bitch in particular) i never walk this bitch with the others as if something did happen it would be impossible to hold a pack of four large breed dogs.

benson67, I have a lot of sympathy for you in this situation as it can feel like no matter what you do, it won't be good enough as you do not know what set the dog off.  there isn't a clearly defined trigger, it doesn't appear to be JRT's in particular and you do not know what the precursors to this situation were as you weren't there.

The advice to get alternative control methods e.g. harness and collar is good advice as this should make you feel confident that the dog cannot break free which means there will be less anxiety from you for the dog to pick up on.  On the rare occassions my dog has been involved in altercations I get very jumpy afterwards and my dog seems to be in a heightened state of arousal where she would kick off at the slightest thing afterwards - way too much adrenaline! 

The only time my dog broke her collar was when she was tied up outside a shop too.  The difference being that she broke free to get out of the rain :) lol.  Although it was quite amusing it would have been a different story had she broken free to get at a border terrorist as ttaylor45 describes them as she really doesn't like them.

i am also contemplating whether to have her put to sleep as at the moment im not sure if i can cope with this

Absolutely, do not even contemplate this!!!!!

This bitch is good in the home, good with your family, children, the dogs she lives with, occassionally she may take a dislike to a dog out on her walk, all you need is a muzzle, please don't even think this bitch is anywhere close to needing to be pts. It is the first attack since you have had her for over a year.

Everybody gets upset at times like this, I guess you are also upset at some of the comments, but what happened was avoidable, and now you are aware, I doubt this bitch will ever get the chance to do it again, a dog wearing a muzzle out on a walk is no big deal, it won't affect your life much and she will get used to it too.

You have what sounds like a nice bitch in every other way, so pts is not an option for this bitch, no where close to it.

Just take on board all the comments, I know some may hurt you, but you may even say them yourself if it weren't your dog? Your just aware now that is all, but your bitch is sound in all other ways, so don't overthink everything, it happened, all you do is make sure it doesn't happen again. :-)

Carrington has made some very good points there, things like this are upsetting from each point of view, you will feel a lot better soon, i was even contemplating not having any dogs yesterday!!!! how stupid and rash was that, she sounds a super girl when in the homex

out of interest...can anyone suggest a muzzle through which you can still feed a reward? as i'm about to take on my dog aggressive boy and plan to work on it through positive reinforcement and food reward and most muzzles inhibit the ability to eat i can't see how i can muzzle him and use this training method. our plan was to have him on two leads, one to his check chain, one to a halti. i'm also considering a chest harness but while mastifflover has said

> I thought they were stupid for big dogs, because they pull with thier shoulders - I thought they must be able to pull worse with a harness on - WOW how wrong was I, with a harness you have control of the bit the power comes from

i've always found that they did have a much firmer pull.

so any thoughts?

couldn't agree more. so benson will need to be more observant on walks, so what? it;s unpleasant but in every other way she sounds lovely

The bull breeds jaws are very strong and have the potential to do much more damage

That is a completely false urban myth saying that about bull breeds that has been around for years a resent study done by the national geographic tested 4 breeds of dog including- a pit bull terrier & rottweiler, the one with the most bite force pressure was the Belgian Malonis.

> That is a completely false urban myth saying that about bull breeds that has been around for years a resent study done by the national geographic tested 4 breeds of dog including- a pit bull terrier & rottweiler, the one with the most bite force pressure was the Belgian Malonis.
>

Numbers involved in tests please ? Links, only 4 breeds tested aswell, not exactly a far ranging study to claim that it is completely false.

The attack suffered to Roxie's DDB was very different from the one for the JR . I am not saying that it is a laughing matter only seeing this huge bull mastiff starting on a small JR  would of been more stressful than another type of breed that's all.  The JR only had a nipped ear as a result of this incident.
Now if he had needed to go to the vet and needed treatment a far more serious attack.
When my dog attacked my neighbours dog it was a fluke incident that happened- as he was never on a lead for 4 1/2 years prior to this happening while out on our walks. Yes I did use a harness and muzzle after this happening- as I said his face became infected and the muzzle was eating into his face- I did sew padding on but it still caused trouble and he suffered because of it.
I took him to aggression training for 6 weeks to see if I could still manage my dog. With lots of training he has turned around from this . I never let him interact with other male dogs only ones I know and I know that he is good with bitches anyway. I feel very upset by your comment that I am an irresponsible dog owner.
I spent months crying and in a right state over what my dog had done with even members of my own family saying I should have him pts.
He has never been allowed to run free off lead since this happened. So I think he has served his time for what happened.
I think dog on dog aggression has nothing to do with a dog being aggressive with people that is something I would never of even tried to of coped with if he had bitten someone.   

A very good book by Karen Delise - Fatal dog attacks & The pit bull placebo the media, myths and politics of canine aggression. It makes very interesting reading as it covers every incident of dogs attacking and the way the media has changed about reporting this now from the 1960's.
In there she mentions the test only not many dogs involved 3 or 4 in the study. Only the pit bull came out with the less bite than the others.

So infact a not very conclusive test at all as 1 Malinois does not actually prove anything, individual dogs will obvioulsy differ and the particular dogs tested could have various reasons for giving the results they did. I am not saying that all bulbreeds will do more damage and I never would but the potential of their strong jaw musculature is greater than should we say most breeds :)

i hope that we can all learn from my post and roxies and never take any chances if you know your dog is not happy with other dogs approaching or if they act in any way other than calm then they all have the potential to do damage no mater how big they are or their breed this is not about the breed a Labrador could have done more damage than my girl im just glad that she has very good bit inhibition because if she did not this poor jr could have easily been killed.

i have had to learn the hard way please take note of this and be aware of the dangers that can happen.

There are always different tangents in posts that different posters follow myself and magica have debated I hope in a friendly way a point raised earlier in the thread. I have no problem with any breed. ( Edited to add but BC's are best LOL)

i agree i had border collies before my rottie and they will always have a special place in my heart

magica, there is a snippet of the same or similar experiment on youtube but I thought it was the rottie that had the strongest bite.  they rated the bites per lb of bite power on an arm and it's an amazing piece of footage.  Think it can be found by typing dog bite or rottie bite.

> I feel very upset by your comment that I am an irresponsible dog owner.

magica, I appologise for being so harsh :(
I took your first post the wrong way and thought you were making light of the incident because there was no serious outcome. I also (wrongly) got the impression that you had only stopped using a muzzle because it rubbed the fur off your dog,  you never said about the aggression training etc. My fault entirely for jumping the gun, completely not deserved, so once again sorry :(
I'm not normally so judgemental, can I blame it on time of the month?
:)

> i'm also considering a chest harness

You will be suprised how well they work. I got one for Buster because he had a loony moment trying to get to another dog to play, I had an awful job holding him with his collar (part check-chain) and he nearly pulled me off my feet. I got a harness that day, the next walk he had, he tried to pull to get to a dog, with the collar on I had so much control he even listened to me and did a lovely sit :)
I got a padded one for about £12, it can be adjusted bigger still but currently fits well on Buster's 37" chest. £12 = not much money wasted if it didn't work, but as it does, when Buster's finished growing I think I'll splash out and get him a fancy leather 1 :)

>out of interest...can anyone suggest a muzzle through which you can still feed a reward? as i'm about to take on my dog aggressive boy and plan to work on it through positive reinforcement and food reward and most muzzles inhibit the ability to eat i can't see how i can muzzle him and use this training method.

You can feed treats through a cage/wire basket muzzle, these ones are much better than the nylon 'fitted' type, because they allow the dog to open it's mouth to pant- the nylon ones dont'.

Thank you for that :)
I do get very emotive over the issue of dog on dog aggression being a bull breed thing, I love all breeds of dog and hate that only a certain type get labeled savage with powerful jaws etc and with that can do more harm. I feel any breed can inflict serious damage with their teeth and has nothing to do with that they might be a bull breed.
I know somebody has a weinemarner bitch of 6 yrs [a rescue] and has attacked several dogs and the owner still lets her bound about free when I know if she had my EBT she would keep it on a lead..  
I know also that if my dog ever became nasty when out walking again the muzzle would be out of the draw again quick fast. I think it worked for him only because he did have such freedom then it was zero which really mentally knocked the attitude out of him. There is no growling or anything from him now, he will just stand there.  Since he has been castrated he is even more laid back than ever. He is 9 now so an old man who is friendly to others . I just keep him away from small dogs. :)

So infact a not very conclusive test at all as 1 Malinois does not actually prove anything, individual dogs will obvioulsy differ and the particular dogs tested could have various reasons for giving the results they did.

Exactly. Not to mention that a large amount of less responsible Mali breeders tend to breed for one thing only -hard bite. It's often the sole selling point for these people. So if it was one of those dogs, no doubt an entirely different result to if it had been a responsibly bred dog.......

> I do get very emotive over the issue of dog on dog aggression being a bull breed thing, I love all breeds of dog and hate that only a certain type get labeled savage with powerful jaws etc and with that can do more harm.

I also get very emotive over all dog-aggression issue and it tends to make my brain not work properly!!! Allthough I don't have a Bull breed, I do worry about the bad press they get as the mastiff is not that far removed - it still falls in the 'big  & powerfull' catagory.

A friend of my dad's used to have 2 JRT's, untill one day he came home to find that one had been killed by the other.
All dogs are capable of inflicting serious wounds, but I do also understand that a big dog has the potentail to cause more damage than a small dog, it all has to do with intent though. Here, the OP's dog obviously never intended to cause serious damage, so in this situation she was less dangerous than a small dog on a mission to kill.