You are right Carrington that is part of my confusion, why does the OP think the breeder would have known about the problem and how showing people photos of the pup at 8 weeks seems to have confinced the OP that they have been badly treated. Also not sure if the castration was part of the treatment, and if so why.

In total agreement, as I have said to the OP, I think some very mischievious people have been planting some very bad seeds. :-(

Apologies if this has been clearly stated before but (1)   have you returned the "damaged" pup or are you keeping him?

(2) have you now, before you sign any papers, got puppy no 2 (the new "show potential" pup?)

(3) If so, has your new vet evaluated the new pup?    And also, what experience with show akitas can your new vet show?

Margot

>what experience with show akitas can your new vet show?

Apparently the Akita reference was a red herring, and the dog is a terrier of some sort.

I'm sorry your pups having problems :(
I was wondering if you are aware that carpal valgus can be rectified via an opperation, if it caused by a difference in growth rate between the radius & ulna and is not expected to recify with growth/maturity/exercise?
My pup developed Unilateral UAP (elbow displasia in 1 elbow), carpal vulgus (specialist diagnosed via x-rays) and weak pasterns. A change in diet has recitfied the pasterns and the wrists are turning back in (we never went with the op, we went with the breeders advice to leave it alone untill growth is complete).
Glucosamine suppliments have been a fantastic help with the UAP and if you haven't allready got your pup on them I highly reccomend them (Glucosamine HCL is better than Glucosamine Sulphate), I'm sure they will do your pups knee the world of good, they help with re-generation and health of joint cartilidge (sp?).

Brilliantly written Carrington, There are lots of people who take great delight in turning the knife on fellow breeders. Personally I feel the OP has been offered more that a lot of breeders are obliged to do. I would take the refund, look for another pup from a different breeder and put this unfortunate event behind you. Sometimes these genetic problems appear out of the blue, indeed I bought a dog in from tested parents, she failed her eye test, I had her spayed and now she is a pet. I informed the breeder and the stud dog owner both of whom I know. The owner of the dam has taken her and her progeny out of the breeding programme, I didn't ask for a refund as I said before these things can skip generations and she was sold and bought in good faith.
I do however feel for you and hope that the long term outcome for you boys health is good.

Having a young dog neutered who has joint problems would not seem to have been a good idea as the hormones will affect the timing of the closure of growth plates and the bone density etc.

Just because a dog shouldn't be used for breeding doesn't mean it has to be castrated.

True Barbara, I do not advocate early neutering in any way shape or form. I advise all of my puppy owners about bone development, bone calcification and growth plate closure and advise that they should not castrate spay until the dog is at least 18 months old. I had my bitch spayed at 2 years purely as I have dogs here too I didn't want her to have an 'accident' and as she is a working dog it would mean that she could now work the full season picking up rather than miss 3 weeks of an all too short season.

> Just because a dog shouldn't be used for breeding doesn't mean it has to be castrated.

That puzzled me too Barbara, the vet proclaims the dog has a problem with the growth of it's bones in one breath and then suggests castration in the next, confusing to say the least. I am not surprised that both the owner and the breeder are upset and wary.

Lorraine    I can't see that any advantage was taken as neither the breeder nor the vet in the early weeks of the pups life could see a problem. To have taken advantage the breeder would have to have known there was a problem, at the time of sale, or expected a problem in later life because it was usual in their lines. Did you have copies of the parents and maybe grandparents health test results? And a contract at time of sale covering these eventualities? Do you know if any of the other puppies are affected?

All the breeder morally has to do is take the puppy back and refund your money, or to come to an agreement with you regarding you keeping it and any refund/reduced price puppy they may offer in the future. keeping the puppy and having a full refund is asking a bit much. However, there was a few years ago now, a lady with Labs who sold a puppy who later came to have many problems. They were offered their money back, but the puppy was to be returned. The owner refused to take the puppy back yet still wanted a full refund, the matter went to court and the breeder lost the case. it was all over the dog press, no doubt someone here will remember it. Trading standards and courts tend to lean towards the puppy owner, rather than the breeder. This breeder had many generations of health tested lines, and it was because she had the parents hip scored and was said to have given assurance that her line was health checked so the puppy came from sound parents was the crux of the matter....the puppy should have been expected to be sound. :( wheres the magic wand........

There is no way on this earth anyone can say what a puppy may or may not suffer with, it can only be said what the parents/ancesters did or did not have. You can only say a puppy has 'show potential' and anyone could say that about any litter, it is only the opinion of the breeder, of course, the parents lines are important here for any wild claims, but even if from a 'top draw' kennel not every puppy will win, a lot also depends on the owners. Not every puppy will be sound and healthy, its a living thing, open to any disease/illness/health problem. And again, largely down to the owners with regard to feeding, exercise and general care, when genetics do not play a part.

As I see it, the dog would have been endorsed not for breeding anyway, so the breeding potential would not have automatically been there. The dog may or may not have performed well at shows, thats the chance anyone takes with show potential, regardless of where it comes from. the health issues are the worst thing, and personally when buying any young animal I would accept that there is a chance for problems, buying from the best linage and from a good sauce helps here. I would have expected the breeder to want to know about the problems, and have discussions with my vet, because there is obviously something not right and I would expect them to make their own investigations into the other siblings. I would be very pleased they had offered any money refund or discount on another puppy, because I personally wouldn't expect this at a later date (as in after the puppy was cleared after sale)  because maybe I'm soft but I would accept in buying a living breathing thing there is a chance of problems. I would expect, if a refund was to be made, that they would want the puppy back.

I don't like the signing a contract thing, for money paid back before its been paid back. I would go to see them, with a letter ready and make sure the refund is in cash. It may simply be that they want to ensure that, once your money is refunded, you won't report them to their breed club or the Kc (are they acreddited breeders?) trading standards etc, and will accept that once monies are refunded this is the end of the matter and you will not go on to make any future problems for them. I wouldn't have another puppy, now, just a refund if you can.

can't say if you have just been unlucky with this puppy, or if the breeder does not take as much care over their breeding lines as the trophies suggest, but I do feel sorry for you that your lovely puppy, one you will be very close to, has all these problems. it must be quite heartbreaking, we accept things as they age but its awful in one so young. I really wish you all the best with your puppy.

If the puppy is being kept and a new pup or full refund given, It would be in the breeders rights to ask for the pedigree papers back!
As If you take a rescue dog, you can not keep the papers and also have to pay a small fee for your puppy.
It is to make sure his papers arn't used for any other dog. So I can see were the breeder is coming from.
But! I would not sign any paper work until the final agreement had been made and settled, Face to Face.


Denese

I am looking at life too easy.. MEET with the people  at the same time they can hand over refund and you can sign receipt meet in services as someone to be a independent witness.. to me that seems so easy OR if they are not too far away go to them or invite them to you..

What is this so hard to sort out?

Think that may be the OP has now gone not having got the answer she possibly expected. Shame really because I think she has been wound up by others who were out to make trouble or did not understand the situation as some of us did not to start with.

Think, as you have just said, meet up, exchange documents for money and run like hell as IMO the OP has been treated very well by the breeder.