hi everyone this is first time on here and hope you can give me some advise.we bought a puppy last year advertised as show potential and front second to non as we are novices we thought it best to go to a breeder who has been in the breed for a number of years anyway we contacted them and explained our wish to show and maybe breed in the future with our girl after a long chat and reasured the pup in question was a great example of the breed we sent off a deposit to secure him as it was a long distance away.we collected our pup a couple of weeks later and again was reasured about it.at 7 months he began limping and after visit to vet we were left devaststed when told he needed operation a.s.a.p as he has a grade 3 luxating patella on left hind leg we did not hesitate to agree to operation as it was in dogs best interest and vet also told us he has carpal valgus of both forlimbs.we were advised to also have him neutered as it was hereditary this we also had done we explained all to breeder and after they demanded medical report from our vet which we also arranged at our expense as well as medical cost we were promised a replacement pup as obviousley we cannot show or breed from him.they then asked for £600 to have replacement pup saying they have made a discount we refused and after many e-mails they agreed refund of price of pup but we have recieved nothing because they want us to send them a letter stating they have paid us and they no longer owe us anything before we have recieved a penny!!!!!  what do you think and is there anything we can do about it? all opinions and advice welcome.

I would suggest you contact the Citizens Advice Bureau - they will be able to tell you exactly what to do.
I am so sorry this has happened to you and your poor dog, what a horror story:-(

I would get a letter faxed to her asking for the replacement puppy, or a refund. What ever you have agreed on. Get them to Fax you back with the settlement details.
I would also Fax the vets diagnoses and proof you have had the treatment done, also paid for.They can pay you through Bank Tranfer.(proof of payment)
No doubt, the breeders had had the puppy Vet checked before sale? As unfortunatly some problems don't show until the puppies are older like children.
Inherditary problems can go back a couple of generations, then can just crop up, in a poor offspring. Just like in us. In the breeders defence, she may truthfully not have known.
A replacement pup can not always come to order. You may have to wait 12months. Untill the bitch is breed again.
Nothing is guaranteed in life but! most of us do our best to please.
A replacement puppy is fair. I can't see a problem with her doing this!
I would have called to see her and taken the puppy, it wouldn't not have mattered how far it was.

Denese

even before these problems arrised we sent pics and how pup was doing when problems started we contacted them and had medical report sent direct to them as they asked.my husband had conversation with them and we had no problem waiting for replacement pup but within 2 weeks we were contacted by them wanting to SELL us a pup.after declining was told we could have a pet pup when they good and ready we said no to this also as that not what we went to purchase in the first place. now we left waiting for refund and getting nowhere even though they said that is what they will do.

I'm sorry you've had to go through this and I do hope it gets sorted out. If the CAB can't help and you need dog specific legal advice, try Trevor Cooper the dog solicitor, he has a phone line where he gives advice on any legal matters regarding dogs. http://www.doglaw.co.uk/

For future reference, I thought you could do with some general advice -and please don't see this as criticism as it really is meant as advice and nothing else. :) First off, very few good breeders will sell you a pup as being of definite show potential, as puppies can change so much as they grow up. They can sell you a pup that at the time of sale looks promising, but I think most decent breeders would always make sure the buyer knew that nothing can be guaranteed and indeed most contracts will state this. (Did you sign a contract?) Of course, your case is slightly more than the dog just not being show quality as it is a health issue, but even so I'd be a little wary of anyone who promised outright a particular puppy WILL make a good show dog. It just doesn't ring true.

Secondly, if you want to breed, you need to buy a bitch, not a dog. The way people (as in reputable breeders, not back yard breeders) pick stud dogs is by looking at what is being shown (or worked, if that is the case) and a good stud do owner do not normally advertise their dog for stud nor do most breeders wanting to use a dog at stud go out and look for dogs being advertised. In other words, if you have a male dog you do not offer him at stud, you wait to be approached, and so the chances are you will NEVER be asked for him to be used at stud, especially if it is a popular breed. In my breed (a rare one) one Champion was 8 before he was used at stud for the first time. So if you are sure you want to breed you do need a bitch, or otherwise you cannot ever be sure anything will happen. :)

Marianne i think the OP already has a female at home??

>and maybe breed in the future with our girl 

Ah I missed that bit -sorry!

I would suggest that you contact the Trading Standards, in law dogs are the same as anything else you purchase and have to be fit for purpose. In other words the seller knew you wished to use it for showing and breeding and it now turns out it is suitable for neither purpose. However it may be that they did not know this before you took the pup but they did sell it to you as show quality, something that most ethical breeders would never say as it is not possible to tell at the 8 week or so the pup would have been when you collected it.

>but they did sell it to you as show quality

The OP says the pup was described as having 'show potential', which is a perfectly acceptable term for a pup that has no obvious faults at that time.

In dals, that would mean a pup that wasn't patched or blue eyed, whose mouth was correct (at that time), had reasonable movement and decoration (including pigmentation), whose tail wasn't curly and (if male!) had two descended testicles.

You are right, I miss read, would seem then the only thing this breeder is guilty of is not replacing the pup or returning the money and if that is not in writing there is not much that can be done.

Unless they knowingly bred from untested stock or those with a known hereditary condition it so matters would be different.

uumm........... I don't think this is as cut and dried as it appears lorraine.

Firstly, were the parents health checked, (I'm guessing yes?)
Are the breeders aware of any hereditory problems to the line?
Have any other pups they have bred had the same problems?
Is this a completely unpredicted condition and the breeder is genuinely shocked?

You see if as already stated earlier although an hereditary condition if it has skipped a few generations and the breeders were genuinely unaware, legally you have no case.

It is only if a pup is sold knowingly by the breeder to come from untested parents and relatives suffering from the condition that they have acted less than honestly.  Then there is a case to answer.

If this is just complete bad luck, then to be honest your lucky that the breeder is being moralistic in offering anything, as legally they don't have to.  Many of us have dogs that have developed problems and we are stuck with the vet bills etc, we don't all go crying back to breeder, sometimes bad luck just happens.

But, if you know that they have acted unproffessionally you have a case, and quite rightly deserve a refund for faulse information in knowing there was a chance of this condition showing through.

They are obviously untrusting of you, in wanting the paperwork saying they have paid you first. Which in return you are quite right not to wish to do too. I would as suggested go to their home and exchange hand to hand.  To be honest if this is a case of bad luck, your lucky the breeder does not realise they are only moralistically bound to refund. I would make a move immediately before they take legal advice.

the breeder has been in the game for 40 years and deals with 3 breeds. dog comes from highly respected show line some of the best show champion dogs in the country.we know no gaurentee of him being a show dog and this wouldnt of been a problem but the problem is he was sold to us with obvious defects as we have been told by other top breeders but maybe not to a novice.after showing other breeders  photos of him as a pup and now there answer has been the same a disgrace to have sold him to novices with false pretences.we followed best diet and diet has nothing to do with it as defects will just get worse and more visable.more operations will be carried out and if it is best for him we will not hesitate to have any carried out if in dogs best interest after all it not his fault.we read all books about back street breeders and believe me these dont come under that catagory and to rub salt in the wound one of them is a judge of the breed.ps a littlte quote from medical report"on examination of dog front quarters he has an obvious carpal valgus of both forelimbs.the right forelimb is severe left less so" this only part of his problems.operation carried out on back leg already and another needed soon.breeder has seen all this.

To be honest if he were my dog, I would feel so guilty I would refund and probably help towards vets bills if insurance did not cover but that is me, and I know many on board would feel the same.

The reason that puppy farmers can sell unhealthy pups etc, is that they don't say health tests are done, they offer no promise of a healthy pup, so have no legal come backs even if a pup were to die a week after purchase.

In your case, sorry to sound callous as I'm going to call your obviously very much loved pup a product as they still come under the sale of goods act, sorry, but legally that is what he will be.  You see, you have been sold this 'product' and even though you found him to be faulty, you have continued to keep him, you still wish to keep him, you are not returning to breeder, you are keeping the pup and also asking for a refund, now for no other product could you do that, you may be offered exchange, but not keep and refund.

The only way legally you can keep and refund is if you can prove the breeder knowingly sold you a pup that was likely to be unhealthy. You give the impression that the breeder should have known at 8-12 weeks (sorry don't know breed) that the pup was 'faulty'. You have shown photo's to others but I don't know whether photo's would be proof that a breeder would know or recongnise a problem especially if a problem they have not seen before.

Unfortunatley breeders do not have to have medical knowlegde and be able to spot a problem like this. The breeder may or may not have known that is very hard to prove.

At present you have the offer of a refund, I would take it. :-)

if they were that obvious then the vet should have picked up on the defects when you first took pup for his jabs.

I have to say I agree with Carrington.

I hate to be rude about fellow exhibitors however I know in my breed and the other two I am involved in it is quite normal for other breeders unless they are really close friends or who use that line to be less than complimentry about another breeders stock.  Puppies all go through bad phases and I was once told by a very good friend and judge of mine if you see the dog at 5 weeks and there is something you like about it then whatever it was it will come back.

Even show quality puppies have defects because if they didnt the show world would all be full of perfect dogs and everyone would own champs.

I really do feel for you but it does happen.

we have offered to go to them but they want a letter saying they have paid us full refund and no further action will be taken!!! and as for trustworthy would you sign something saying you have recieved it if you hadnt?

Absolutely not!!!

You sign nothing until you have the money back. No contract of any sort is done that way.

If both sides are untrusting, though quite why the breeder distrusts you I do not know, then do as suggested and insist that the contract will be drawn up as they have asked but signature will be done at the same time as exchange of money. :-)

breeders told us they spoke to sire of pups and this has been confirmed not to be true as we just contacted him!!!!!

It's a difficult one, I feel sorry for you but I wouldn't say the breeder was under any obligation at all to GIVE you another show quality pup. Yes, you bought him as show potential and sadly this hasn't turned out to be the case but that doesn't mean the the breeder should refund your money or give you another pup. Dogs are living animals and can and do change dramatically when growing up - there are no guarantees.

lorranine, I understand your upset, really I do, but there is no point to it hun, I never waste energy on a loosing battle, it really is pointless.

They are offering the refund, you still have a pup, that hopefully will improve, but I'm sure you would not be without him now no matter what the future holds for him, and with the refund you can buy another from another breeder, have a look on champdogs or the breed cub for another breeder, I'm sure you will find quite a few.

Honestly, proving and disproving it will only upset you, my advice is to just let it go, it's been a terrible experience, you can do no more than have a refund, they have already realised they don't have to give you another pup, before they realise they don't have to give a refund, don't stall any longer.  No matter what you think of the breeder, you have your pup and hopefully you can have another that will fullfill everything you wanted from the first. :-)

we bought him off champdogs !!! and refund situation is a joke we have paper work saying money will be refunded.

good comment that why we changed vets and as for get over it and move on if these people are considered respected breeders and done this who would you go to for a pup? we carried out many checks and as i have said we thought we were going to the right people.

I honestly don't think there are many breeders who would give you a full refund for a dog that you're keeping. Sounds pretty good to me. Most people will say in their contracts that if for any reason you can't keep the dog he should be returned to the breeder and you will be refunded, mine said the full purchase price but others will refund only what they get if they manage to sell the dog on. If this breeder is willing to give you a refund while you keep the dog then smile nicely, thank them and accept it :o)

Can any Akita owner/breeders tell me wether patella luxation is a common problem with the breed and wether it is usually tested for in breeding stock.
Lorraine...what health tests did the parents have done?
Nikki

I wouldn't say patella luxation is common in Akita's at all.  I have known it happen but then it can happen in any breed.

I personally think a good breeder may offer another pup in the future but really they are under no obligation to do so.  If they are offering a refund and you get to keep the pup then I would visit them and do this face to face...if you want to sign anything then do it while you are with them after money has been handed over.

No sorry  you bought him from a breeder who may advertise on Champdogs not off CD.
As to the rest of this  as you have been offered a refund then arranging someway for you and the breeder to exchange the money and the required signed statement is the way forward.IMHO
The only other option is to go for legal advice and possibley see if you can prove the breeder knew about the puppies problems and missold to you, however this could indeed be a long drawn out process and could work out  costly and you have no guarentee of winning.

> after showing other breeders  photos of him as a pup and now there answer has been the same a disgrace to have sold him to novices with false pretences

The important thing is were the defects noticeable at the time of sale, did your Vet pick up a problem when he went for his puppy vacciantions?.

It is so easy to say later that the pup has turned out poorly/with problems, but at the time f sale if he was a promising looking pup, there was no background of problems in his pedigree (you say they have top winning dogs) then it is just very bad luck and the breeder is being more than reasonable offering you a refund or another puppy.

Have to agree, no one can be expected to diagnose joint problems in a pup of 8 weeks, even with an x-ray it would not be conclusive. Don't think the OP has any case against the breeder who sold the pup in good faith and has generously offered a refund without asking for the puppy back. Can understand that they, the breeders, will want a disclaimer to be signed so they can put the matter behind them, on the other hand I can see the OP will not sign to say they have had money until they have had it. As far as the stud owner is concerned I would think they were aware and do not want to be involved and providing their dog is health tested and sound I can see their point of view.

Would suggest that the OP would perhaps do best to step things down a pace of two and say thank you very much I will collect the money from your kennels and sign the document required. It is a generous offer and beyond what would be required in law. A pup sold as show potential is only one of potential if it had been sold as of show quality that would have been different.

If patella luxation is not commonly tested for within the breed then I don't see that the breeder is at fault concerning this unless the adults have shown any signs.
As far as show potential is concerned 1/ different people see different things and different breed lines may look different at different stages.2/looking at a photo is not an easy way to spot show potential.
I think the breeder is doing what they can...

i dont think you get what we are saying the offer of a pup was made we had no problem waiting as they told us nothing for 6 months or so then 2 weeks later they offered a pup but wanted £600 and as they wanted £800 for pup discount of £200 we declined this offer as already said replacement would be given then told us they would refund our money for what we paid for dog but wanted us to send all papers and a letter stating they have paid us in full all this before any payment recieved.

this is only one of the problems other is much worse and must not be bred from that is why we had him neuterd at vets advice and breeders agreed.

I dont honestly see what your expecting to be said here. Advice has been given how each individual poster sees the situation you can choose to accept that advice or not but thats all that can be given. It is up to you to work out what will be your best options and deal with the breeder of your pup. Sorry to be so frank but thats the bottom line.

>this is only one of the problems other is much worse and must not be bred from that is why we had him neuterd at vets advice and breeders agreed.

why did you not mention this before ? whats the other problem ?

Carpel Valgus was also mentioned earlier :)

That's not always hereditary, according to the vet at work.

sorry, I thought it was something other than already mentioned.

I really am not picking but if the breed is Akita's then I know who is classed as top breeders in this breed (as it is a breed I own and show) and they definitely don't let their pups go at £800...this is the average/lower  end of the scale for the price of Akita's.  I'd be interested to know who he's from but I guess you can only PM to let me know??? 

Another poster was saying about patella luxation and no, it is not a required test to be carried out for Akita's.  The main health tests carried out are hip scores, I would also look for someone who eye tests aswell but this isn't a common thing to do.

You are doing the best thing by getting the best treatment for your pup and helping him on the road to recovery. I'd take the £600 and be grateful, if the pup was sold in good health then the breeders aren't legally entitled to do anything.

I really do feel for you as it is not nice to buy a pup and then have lots of health problems but unfortunately it can and does happen.

No need to apologise :-D

Vitamin D and/or phosphorus deficiency has been linked to carpal valgus, so it could be attributed to an unbalanced diet.

but wanted us to send all papers and a letter stating they have paid us in full all this before any payment recieved.

Ok, lets just concentrate on this if you don't wish to travel back to the breeders, what you can do is write the letter as asked by the breeder as so:

That on receipt of a full refund the matter is finalised and no further action from yourselves will be taken with regards to the said pup.

That way the breeder has in writing that you are taking no further action and will have proof that they sent you a cheque or bank transfer if you should go back on that.

If for some reason after sending the letter you do not receive a refund, it is nothing lost as you wrote on receipt of the money you would take no further action.

So that is that now sorted, you will have your £800 back and can eventually go and get another pup if you wish, though I would wait until your pup now is fully grown and for now he needs your concentration.

What other papers are you needing to return by the way?....................... it is not the KC papers is it, hope not as you are entitled to keep those, your pup is neutered and you have kept him.

hi everyone i am sorry i did not explain problems properly here is what the requested vet report say "the abnormalties i found are as follows has a grade 3 medially luxaling patella of the left hind.this causes the femur to bow and as a consequence there is a out turn of th knee. although one operation has been carried out due to the severity of the luxating luxating patella it puts the cranial cruciate ligament under great stress and is and is highly likely that this ligament will rupture in the future needing more surgery.luxation of the patella causes abnormal wear of the cartilage and results in osteo-arthritus.there is already a lot of crepitus in the concerning knee joint.it is a very obvious there is a problem when i watch him walking as he has a very odd gait. on examination of his front quaters he has a obvious carpal valgus of both forelimbs right forelimb is severe,the left less so. as a result of these abnormalities the owner is unable to breed from him due to hereditary component. this report is dated 7th april 2008. ps we have paid £650 to this breeder because they were so highly considered and much more besides on vet bills and stuff this may not sound a big lot to some of you but we consider it is seems as 3 out of 4 legs have as we discoverd have abnormalties.we accept we may not get anywhere but as they knew we we novices we feel they took advantage.

> Vitamin D and/or phosphorus deficiency has been linked to carpal valgus, so it could be attributed to an unbalanced diet.

Agree JG, also over supplementation particularly of calcium and probable the most common cause. plain and simple trauma something that can easily happen with a puppy and one may not even be aware. I can't even find mention of hereditary causes in my books although fast growing breeds are most usually effected.

Think may be the OP should be directing her displeasure at her vet rather than the breeder as it would seem she/he has been given the wrong advice with regard to castration, even if at a later date it was decided not to use the dog at stud what was the rush, it had nothing to do with the treatment of the condition.

Just read through this thread and it's a bit convoluted, so I hope I understand correctly.

So, as I see it Lorraine, you bought an 8 week old puppy that was described as having show potential at the time. I would imagine you would have taken him to your vet within the first few days of getting him. Your vet gives him a clean bill of health (is that the case?) If so, how could the breeder have identified the orthopaedic problems at 8 weeks, if your vet didn't or couldn't spot them. To my mind, the breeder can only be held responsible for these problems, if they knowingly bred together a dog and a bitch that were affected, or had come from affected lines.

If this breeder has offered you a full refund and allowed you keep the dog, then that is extremely generous, and they cannot be expected to do more, most would expect to have the puppy back before a refund would be given. In addition they have even offered you another puppy at a reduced price, what more do you want?

Now if I have misunderstood any of the details then I apologise, but the tale is rather complicated. It certainly looks to me as though you have been treated quite fairly. On the subject of the disclaimer letter, you could arrange to hand deliver the letter, and exchange it for your refund. Then put all this behind you, put it all down to experience, and move on.

Dawn R.

I do feel really sorry for you, as you must really be dreadfully disappointed about the dogs health problems, especially as you feel you have been treated unfairly. There is of course a possibility that the breeder genuinely had no knowledge of hereditary problems in the pedigree of the litter, and that the breeder was genuinely unaware that there might be potential health problems with the pup. In the light of some evidence of other dishonesty however, it is beginning to look a bit suspicious and I can see why you are worried. HOWEVER, what is done is done, and now you are trying to decide what to do about the situation. I am assuming that you are keeping your pup, as you have not said otherwise, although you cannot breed from him. You need to consider how best you can move on from this.
Firstly, even if the breeders treatment of you has been unfair or what we might consider immoral, it doesnt necessarily mean you have any legal rights. In a court you would have to prove that the breeder was aware of either health problems in the pup, or in the breeding lines, and therefore knowingly missold you a pup. Unfortunatley "proof" isnt the opinion of another breeder, particularly as your own vet did not identify existing health problems with the pup in the early days. I think it would be unlikely that you would be able to obtain this level of proof, so you could end up with big legal costs, way over and above the £800 cost of the pup. It is also likely to cost heavily in terms of stress to you and your family, both during any case, and if you lose.
Secondly, if you do not trust this breeder, and there are doubts about the health status of her lines, you should not be remotely considering another pup from the same breeder.

All in all I feel it would be fruitless to pursue this. And I am sorry to say this, because I feel you may have been treated unfairly.

Thirdly, ( and not necessarily relevant to your question, but I feel its worth saying), I think you should reflect seriously on whether you should be considering a litter at this time or in the near future. You freely admit that you are novices......not in itself a problem as everyone has to start somewhere. What is more of a concern is that you were unable to see problems with your pup that experienced breeders say were obvious faults ( that is not a criticism, just an observation). I have owned afghans for years, but still would not trust myself enough to choose appropriate breeding stock, nor know how to choose the appropriate dog for my bitch. I also took lots of advice before choosing my current dogs, as I didnt trust my own judgement. Even if this pup had had no health problems, he would still not necessarily be the right dog for your bitch, however strong his pedigree.

In general I would suggest that you begin your search for another pup, from a different breeder. It may in the meantime be of some help to you to get contacts in the breed, but maybe someone who doesnt actually breed, or someone who at least has no current litters. It may be possible that such people could be more independent, and give more unbiased advice on what to look for in a pup, on health problems in certain lines, and most importantly what dog would be right for YOUR bitch. Speak to lots and lots of people and work out who you can trust. Familiarise yourself with the look of lots and lots of pups in the breed so that you learn to spot any obvious problems. Maybe breeding should be left on the backburner for a while until you have a little more expert support or until you feel more knowledgeable.
Cathy

Lorraine, reading through your posts, I don't think that you do actually believe that the 'stock' used by the breeder was at fault and that it was pure bad luck your chosen pup ended up in this condition, purely due to the fact that you were willing if a pup were to be given free to have another pup from the breeder, so in a way you have sealed approval of the breeder in wishing to do this and can not have had any real concerns, especially as you wished to show and perhaps breed from the pup, so if you think about it at the time you were still trusting of this breeder, otherwise you would have run the other way from having another pup from them.

we accept we may not get anywhere but as they knew we we novices we feel they took advantage.

This statement I feel is at the crux of your anger and perhaps the reason for posting in the first place, and if you really think about it, do you really think the breeder purposely sold you an unhealthy pup, or has this seed been planted in your head, at a guess most probably by the same people who looked at photo's and said the breeder would have known. **rolleyes**

There are an awful lot of mischief makers in the world, an awful lot of people who like to bring other breeders down, I think you have been a victim of these such people and if you let go the anger that you have built up in believing you have this pup because you are a novice I think you will realise, the breeder has done their best and not taken advantage, but perhaps others have in building up your emotions. :-(

i am sure 2 vets cant be wrong so unless you have a book nobody else has i doubt if they are wrong. by the way he a terrier breed.....

Information about radius curvus syndrome (also called carpal valgus).

And more info. Excess calcium in the diet is strongly linked.

Really confused now, do you mean that the vet you took him too when you first had him diagnosed these problems and if so why did you not take him straight back. Or are you referring to the fact that I said my books do not mention hereditary factor, if so I am not saying that there may not be in some cases a hereditary factor just that it is not the cause in all cases and obviously the books I have did not think it a high enough likelihood to mention that or they may well be out of date.

See that the dog in question is a terrier, terriers are prone to slipping patella it could even be said to be common in some terrier breeds but is not something the breeder could have foreseen.

Luxating patella is so common in Jack Russells, for instance, that it's considered normal! "It's a JR thing" the owners say, as their little dog skips along carrying one hind leg at intervals.

we collected our pup a couple of weeks later and again was reasured about it.at 7 months he began limping and after visit to vet we were left devaststed when told he needed

The pup was not diagnosed until 7 months with any problems as per OP's first post.