I have an Olde Tyme Bulldog that is 15 months of age.  Her mother and brother live very close so we go for long walks together but I'm worried about their pack mentality.  I understand that you cannot fight nature but their behaviour, when together, is cause for concern.  They believe they own our local park my bitch becomes aggressive when she encounters other females and now it doesn't even matter whether they approach her brother for her aggression to rear it's head.  Her brother is the same but his behaviour seems to have arisen from his sister first time in season... So more understandable.  I must add that sometimes the behaviour is not aggressive it's dogs playing naturally but if the unknown dogs owner starts screaming it can cause a perfectly nautural situation to escalate. 
Here we go...  The worst was yesterday.  We all went for our normal walk at our local boating lake.  In the past people have picked their dogs up when they've seen our pack approaching or have had to once our pack have shown aggressive behaviour...  Yesterday, a woman was carrying her child out of the play area and my bitch seem to think she had a dog in her arms.  Don't worry, the child was fine but it was a terrifying incident!  Surely she knew from the smell the child was not a canine?  My bitch is a totally different dog in doors, is used to toddlers and although she is never left alone with little ones she allows them to ride on her back etc.

Her chewing things at home has got worse over the last month...  No remote control or shoe is safe in our home and if I leave my bedroom door open she may decide to urinate on my bed or my daughters bed...  Sometimes when we go to visit her mum (when she's allowed) she even goes on their owners bed and pee's. 

Please help.  I don't have a problem being consistent with my bitch, she get a lot of attention as I'm at home all day but we also have rules.

I await your response with great anticipation.
Regards

hi simsimma and welcome.

i think you need to give a bit more info here- what is it that your bitch has been doing to cause other dog owners to scream? also what did she try and do to the child?

it sounds to me like you need to get on top of this pack behaviour, why not walk her seperately for a while? she'll be a lot less confident without her 'posse' to back her up.

as to the peeing and pooing in the house i think your going to need to get right back to basics on toilet training.

as to toddlers riding her, this is not good for her growing bones so i would put a stop to that asap!

Cheers for the response, points taking but I thought this might answer your questions...

Her and her brother bit the cheeks of the dog NOT drawing blood but playing as they do at home but understandably they are large dogs so can seem menacing.  She seemed to be interested in what the woman had in her arms so kept jumping up at her.  The woman started screaming so this made my bitch more excited which then led to her brother jumping up with interest.  I think she was jumping up because she thought it was another handbag dog she could play with but  it obviously looked far worse to onlookers, watching two large dogs jumping at a woman carrying a toddler. 

When my daughters have walked her without her posse she has had the same behaviour towards other bitches and you can see she misses her brother and mum when I've tried what you've suggested. 

I thought maybe this was some kind of attention seeking as she is house trained, but chooses to pee on my bed when I'm not home.  Could she be sulking?

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.... you are very lucky that lady with the child hasnt reported your dogs for being dangerously out of control in a public place!

She would have EVERY right to do so, and the chances are you risk your dogs being seized if she does.

Two new rules: Your dog on a lead in public AT ALL TIMES.

                      Do not walk with her brother/mother again.

I would also if its at all possible avoid the places she deems as 'hers', as her behaviour is going to be much worse in those places.

She is probably not particularly aggressive however, certain situations will encourage this behaviour.

She was jumping at the lady with the child because she was curious, has no manners, and found the whole thing an exciting game (worsened by the lady screaming but I have to say I cannot blame her!).

When walking with her mother and brother, they probably push each other further into things they would not normally do alone. This can be two pushing one out to go and greet strange dogs, where the one forced out feels vulnerable and threatened and so picks a fight to ward off the other dog, or three dogs at least one of which has no manners nor training, getting stupid in play and taking things further than other dogs like.

You own a big, solid breed and one which due to its name and common ancestors is VERY high profile in the media - you bet your LIFE the woman and child she scared the other day is now telling everyone that a vicious pitbull attacked her. Every time your dog does something that so much as worries someone else, you are doing bullbreeds across the country a massive disservice.

So, on a lead, she cant go and harrass people. Without her mum and brother she will not be pushed into behaviour she wouldnt normally show.

Train her, train her as if you were going to take her to crufts obedience.... clicker training is great and I find bullbreeds of all kinds take to it pretty well.. they are NOT dumb in the slightest.

Invest in a long lead (30ft) and harness and she doesnt get let off htat until she has a recall you'd bet a months wages on her obeying. If you have already used a recall command and shes ignoring it (ie she doesnt return immediately you say it), then use a new one as the old one doesnt mean 'come now' it means 'come when you are ready, if you want to..'.

you will have to train her away from her mum and brother, before you can attempt to train her with them - the more she gets to practice being aggressive towards other dogs, running off and ignoring recalls, the more she will do that, and the harder it will be to stop her.

Take her mind off missing the interaction with othe dogs by playing games with her, clicker trianing, problem solving games etc.  Invite them round to your house or go to theirs so she doesnt miss out. Just dont walk her with them. She will not learn to play nicely with other dogs though by playing with these two, as they like her will have a far higher tolerance to pain and be far more tolerant of rough play than strange dogs will.

Peeing on your bed when you are not home suggests she is anxious and insecure - clicker training will improve that, teaching her to cope with being left will improve it. You may need to rearrange some aspects of home life to make her feel more confident and secure. Training her will help.

No shes not sulking. Shes a dog, not a human.

could not agree with theemx more esp> you are doing bullbreeds across the country a massive disservice.

>

thats not ment to be harsh to the OP but as the owner of a bullbreed you simply CANNOT allow them to get away with this type of behaviour, give them an inch etc

definately lead at all times, you might want to consider a muzzle to if they are biting, even gently- many dogs will not appreciate that!

another thought might be to try and involve an excellent stooge dog in your training to show your bitch how its done- polite play (i.e. no biting!)- my lot larned at least semi polite play with my sis's whippet, good recall etc

practise getting her to sit nicely for strangers attention, definately no jumping! thankfully most bullbreeds are pretty food oriented so try a tasty treat (i've just discovered the joys of livercake)

btw, how old are your daughters who walk her? i'm just concerned about their ability to control her if they are youonger and shes like this

Much appreciated.  I've taken your points on board about behaviour with mum and brother.  Are you saying my young, energetic, dog cannot run free if there are no other dogs around?  I am a responsible owner who has spent constant and large amounts of time training her. 

Fortunately I have started walking her in a different environment from her usually. 

As you know I have contacted you guys for advice and OBVIOUSLY 'doing bullbreeds across the country a massive disservice' is not my intention hence I ask for a solution as opposed to slap wrist!!!

I totally understand the logic you pose as her insecurities when out with brother and mum and also the need for a new recall word.  Please note she chews shoes & remote controls 

I should add that she has pee'd & chewed when I've been home, does that mean she is anxious then too?  She does get positive attention and not for bad behaviour but I understand the need to review my techniques hence I'm asking for help and would like to take advantage of the fact I'm with her all day, most days and that's a great opportunity to help her to be the wonderful dog she already is but needs help fulfilling in different environments, situations etc.

I should add she plays nicely with other dogs in general I made it clear at which times she does not. 

Hi, didn't know parrots were on this site too...  I'm responsible enough to research my breed as well as asking for advise when I'm unsure so with that in mind...

My daughters are grown, responsible and have attended classes because I'm responsible for them too and they don't need tasty treats to get the best response either!

Re-iterating what another has said without adding positive extras.

i know as a bullbreed owner that nicely playing with other breeds from your bull breeds POV is not always nice for the other dog- they don't mean it, its just that they are designed to take a battering and don't quite appreciate that other dogs don't really get it.

> I've taken your points on board about behaviour with mum and brother.  Are you saying my young, energetic, dog cannot run free if there are no other dogs around?

at the moment i'd say no. you don't know if there definately are other dogs around or not, and from what you've said her poor behaviour is not just towards other dogs. i;m not trying to suuggest that your a bad owner and i am looking at your situation from a similar position. my parents boy is about to move in with me, he does not like other dogs and as such i will not let him off lead till i 1000000%, stake my life and certainly his life (because if he accidentally hurt someone or hurt someones dog thats what it amounts to) on his behaving properly. he's a young energetic dog to btw.

it sounds like her entire behaviour needs addressing if shes destructive as well. many people might disagree with me but i do believe in pack and dominance theories and it sounds to me like she does not see you as her leader. i would suggest you work on that- though i suggest that you avoid the likes of Cesar milan like the plague. positive reinforsement and gentle dominance should be applied to her behaviour. simple stuff like ignoring her till your ready when you come in, attention when you choose not her, gently assuming dominant positions during rough and tumble play (do you get down on the floor and wrestle?), even just when your patting her firmly rubbing her neck can help suggest dominance without being domineering if you see what i mean :)

knowing your firmly, but fairly, in charge should help her anxiety

Firstly...I dont understand your comment about parrots...I havent got a clue about what you are on about there!

Secondly, your post darts about a bit so I may have misunderstood it but I will summarise what I understood from it...........
Your dogs have on more than one occasion shown aggressive behavour whilst in a pack
Your dogs have bitten another dog on the cheek
Your bitch was repeatedly jumping up at a mother with a baby
You were aware that they were doing this but were unable to stop them ( ? were too far away? dog ignored your verbal commands?  its not quite clear from your post why you werent able to stop it)

Pardon me if I am mistaken but your post does not seem to reflect a great deal of remorse or insight about the way your dogs terrified the mother of this baby ( you merely stated "dont worry it wasnt hurt") The poor mother must have feared for her baby's life. I cannot imagine the psychological trauma suffered ...she may be terrified of dogs forever now.  What if the mother had dropped the baby? It could have been killed! Of COURSE people will scream if they think they are in danger. It cannot be the responsibility of those without dogs to know how to behave around other peoples dogs, and as a dog owner it is your responsibilty to ensure that these events do not occur.

I am going to be frank and tell you that if your  bitch had jumped all over me whilst I was holding a baby, you would be in the police station by now, and you would certainly no longer be in possession of your dogs ( and possibly your front teeth :-)  ).

As far as advice goes......

1. "Are you saying my young, energetic, dog cannot run free if there are no other dogs around? "  Your own post makes it clear that your bitch is not only a threat to dogs, but a threat to people. She may well never bite them, but scaring them half to death is unacceptable (and is equally against the law). SO I am going to say that YES until you have verbal control over your bitch, you cannot let her run free in a public area. You will need a 100% recall over her before you can do this again. If she must run free, find an enclosed area that is peole and dog free.

2. I advise that you see a  reputable behaviourist regarding the pack issues. I would not be happy to offer training advice online, as you need someone to see how the dogs interact and how you behave with the dogs. In the meantime ALL of the dogs must be kept on a lead.

I am pretty sure you wont be happy with the first part of my post, but I am making this post with the best interests of you and your dogs in mind.  The behaviour you have described is not only socially unacceptable,it is in breach of the law.  You are curently vulnerable to police prosecution on the basis of what your bitch did to this woman and her baby, even if no physical damage was caused. You are at risk of having your dog taken from you, or even PTS. You are at risk of someone suing you for damages.
If I were you I would sit and pray that the lady has not reported you to the police.

Her symptoms do suggest that an underlying anxiety/insecurity are present,but as pinklillies says, a reputable behaviourist is going to be necessary to see first hand what is going on.

Now i disagree partially with Astarte... i dont believe dogs think we are dogs nor do they need us to be 'alpha' dogs - (and I would avoid like the plague a behaviourist who prescribes to this way of thinking), HOWEVER... dogs DO need guidance, leadership, education and someone to take confidence from and I would agree with Astarte that your bitch is lacking in this.

You will have to accept that people ARE going to be horrified at what you have allowed your bitch to do - for me, having worked with an organisation desperately trying to save dogs deemed pitbulls, and sentenced to death or at the very least, an undetermined time in inadequate kennels, I am horrified when I see someone allowing any dog, but especially a bull breed, to misbehave like this, and then post about it seemingly remorseless (though I am well aware that its possible to come across badly in type, and be misunderstood).

I suggest you take the flack on the chin and accept htat you have made a mistake or three and just get on with things. No there is no point kicking you when you are down, but people will be upset by what you have allowed to happen!

As far as her exercise - yes, keep her on a lead and harness. IF you can find somewhere secure, where you can see ALL entrances, no one can appear round a corner suddenly, then that might be ok, but places such as this are very scarce.

At some stage, muzzling her may be appropriate, BUT... allowing her to run up to another dog or person, even muzzled, and her behaving as she currently does is STILL incredibly unfair, potentially illegal, and not going to help her learn how to behave in the long run.

Using a long line doesnt mean she will always remain on the lead - its only until she has a reliable recall so its down to you to put in the work. You just use it as that stepping stone between on lead and off lead.

Hi simsimma, read this thread and thought I would just tell you of my experience.. I thought I did everything right with my bull terrier. I walked loads him with meeting other dogs off lead for 4 1/2 years. Then my fathers collie x bitch moved in with us after 5 weeks, one day they both got loose from my back yard and he ended up killing my neighbours dog. After going through that experience wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy ! I so thought how could i have let this happen ... it was due to not realising that bull breeds are a different kettle of fish when it comes to meeting others- people, dogs, kids, horses,  cats the lot . The dog I had before was a Belgian Shepard and if she got in a squabble it was just that- a 'squabble' but with mine and your chosen breed if they sense fear they assume right rough play time or fight fight ! if I slip up or scream/yelp, he can get the devil in his eye in a flash it is in a playful way but I know him it is still unsettling sometimes when I'm not in a playful mood. For some random person who does not understand  this breed it can be very frightening and can look to want to attack even though its play.  My dog is 9 years old now.

I'm sure with taking your baby girl to dog training it will nip in the bud any issues your having with her. I keep my boy on a 16 ft retractable lead now . I let him off as he's ok with girls but its still where I have to be 100% one step ahead for potential trouble. All the times before just rambling along without a care in the world
with walking my dogs are fond memories now. :)

I don't let my staffy off the lead if there are other dogs around as she can be a bit unpredictable and I am not willing to face the consequences that could be dished out as a result of the DDA.  I'm also not willing to deal with the consequences of her killing another dog which is a distinct possibility. 

I would suggest that you also don't let your dog off the lead and TBH if I was the woman holding the baby, I would have contacted the police and done everything possible to ensure that precautions were put in place to make sure the dogs couldn't do that again.

I had a horrible experience a few years ago that stopped walks being a pleasure for me when there are other dogs about.  My dog did exactly the same as yours did but the woman was holding a dog.  She bit the dog and thankfully had it by the tail rather than anywhere vital organs were involved, but was hanging off it as I tried to get her off. 

It was really scary and thankfully there was a man with a walking stick who helped me out but it was extremely scary and had me doubting the temprement of my dog and whether I could cope or wanted to cope with her.  I would never get rid of her but even now walks can be an anxious experience when we come across rude dogs that can't read her body language telling them to p*** off!

Concentrating on recall is vital and as my dog is a greedy mutt, I was able to bribe her with food so now her recall when biscuits are involved is 100% and she even comes back to me if she sees another dog.  I wish you best of luck with your dog but think you need to be realistic when looking at the power of your dog and the possible repercussions if another dog owner or park user has an issue with your dogs behaviour.

simsimma theres really no need to be rude, i was trying to offer helpful advice to you. i was not parroting, my post was intended to reitterate certain points from the POV of a fellow bull breed owner. i also believe i made the suggestion of the use of a stooge dog, though i have not checked if it was mentioned previously, sorry if you didn't find this helpful but i consider it an idea with merit once you have her bahaviour in some sort of order.

> they don't need tasty treats to get the best response either!
>

well your not exactly getting the best response now are you? 

> dont believe dogs think we are dogs nor do they need us to be 'alpha' dogs

i agree with you for the most part theemx! i am not a devout pack theory follower but i do think that dogs need to know that you are the leader, not in a alpha rolling, "your not eating till i've eaten, you must show subservience to me"" way, but in a calm and masterful leadership way, where the dog will willingly defer to you because it trusts in your ability to look after it

Im not speaking on behalf of sim simma but i feel like its time 4 me to step in my bitch is the sister of the BITCH and im not trying to be funny but they all play lovely together im not asking u to understand dat but my dog is very well trained but even she has her odd moments now my point is dat i dnt agree with ur attiude wen someone has the guts to come on here were so many people can c and ask 4 help. yh u do have some true points but i think u should try to rephrase ur post these dogs are a lovley bunch and im not having someone telling someone who is close to me that they would have got there to front teeth knocked out. This is a situation 4 help not threats and i think if u cant control ur mouth by saying things that are un nessary then i dnt think ur opinion is needed we need help not ur loud attiude. we are mature adults and no da law we no that the bitch done wrong and if that was me holding my baby well lets jus say dat u cant describe wat u would do but that is why we are asking 4 help because we never wanna be in that situation again at the end of the day there still all babys and are still learning about wat is right and wrong which is why we needed help before it got too late so if u dnt mind if u dnt have nothing good to say then please dnt say nothing at all thanks!!!!!

> Im not speaking on behalf of sim simma

????? but you are posting using her name ?

Can you please post in English & not textspeak then perhaps everyone can fully understand whet you are writing

thanks

> i think u should try to rephrase ur post these dogs are a lovley bunch and im not having someone telling someone who is close to me that they would have got there to front teeth knocked out

sorry is this to me? don't think i said anything about knocking teeth out

so if u dnt mind if u dnt have nothing good to say then please dnt say nothing at all thanks!!!!!

If you don't want feedback you shouldn't really ask IMO.
But from your comments you only want to hear from anyone who thinks that your dogs behaviour is acceptable?  Well, you may not think this is a good thing to say but your dogs behaviour is appalling and is NOT acceptable!  I can't quite believe you are asking for advice when the advice you want is only what you want to hear!

I am going to be frank and tell you that if your  bitch had jumped all over me whilst I was holding a baby, you would be in the police station by now, and you would certainly no longer be in possession of your dogs ( and possibly your front teeth

Pinklillies could not have put this better!

Your dog should be kept on lead at all times and muzzled in a public place.  You say you have trained your dog, but I'm at a loss as to what you have trained, unless it is jumping up people, being aggressive and fighting? 

A few months ago a lab cross (small in stature) off lead ran up to my largish golden retriever (on lead) and attacked him, there were 4 adults trying to get this little evil dog from my dog, his ear was pouring with blood and we could not prise this dogs mouth off my dog, I dread to think what would happen if a dog of the type you have was in this situation and it doesn't bear thinking about if she did it to a child or even an adult!

I do not think you are a very responsible owner, that said, I would suggest you get help re-homing or having your dog pts. Even though it is not what you want to hear, it is what I'm saying! 

>In the past people have picked their dogs up when they've seen our pack approaching or have had to once our pack have shown aggressive behaviour... 

This surely is a wind-up? These dogs have been aggressive before and they're still walked together? Madness.

>my point is dat i dnt agree with ur attiude wen someone has the guts to come on here were so many people can c and ask 4 help.

If I've translated that properly into English (please don't use txt - you're not using a mobile phone now) I get the impression you think the behaviour of these dogs is something to be, if not applauded, then excused. I'm sorry, it can't be. These dogs need to be walked separately from each other so they can't back each other up, and should also go to training classes to learn how to behave in public. If they're walked together, then they should be muzzled and only one let off the lead at a time. That way they have much more chance of surviving, rather than being seized and destroyed as being dangerously out of control.

perry thats a bit strong, i don't think we should be advocating pts for a dog whos behaviour is fixable, thats ridiculously extreme. though i can understand your reaction based on the trauma you've had recently.

i think that each of these dogs needs some serious training and should definately be kept on lead for the duration

Astarte, you are probably right it is a bit strong and harsh.  Although in this case I do think the dog needs to be with a more experienced owner, and if that isn't possible then I see no other alternative, otherwise someone is going to get seriously injured or worse.

i do see your concern but i think we're better giving constructive advice on how to avoid that senario. though as i say given what happened with your dog- hope he's ok btw- i can totally understand your reaction, it must have been very scary. from my point of view as a bull breed owner it is a scary situation. bul breeds have scraped avoiding breed specific legislation over the years, in some countries they are banned (canada for example) and any incident involving a bull breed scares me terribly- irresponsibility in ownership by others could quite easily end up depriving me of my dogs.

i think all we can do is try and help the op and their friend in getting their dogs to behave in a socially acceptable manner

You should have been reported under the DDA, as 'intent' is all that is required to be prosecuted. I think you know this, and thats why you have asked for help, so you have taken the first right step.

So take notice of what people have said by keeping your dog under control,  on a lead anywhere, and walk WITHOUT the others. Other people are safe, and you are in complete control. You will feel better straight away.

My really sweet natured dog also has shown an unhealthy curiosity about dogs or children held in arms and I have to work very, very, very hard to overcome and control this, so I walk her alone and she now knows instant distant commands, but by god, I have had to work hard on this and would never walk her in a pack, because of this. And we continue to work on it every walk.

Leave the 'pack walking' behind and get to a good dog trainer you respect and work and work on your dog to keep others safe and you in complete control, which is what you want. But its ongoing and you have other issues, re the bed wetting. Often either stress related or dominance related in my experience. By working ALONE and really not letting anything detract you from being determined to do this, the 2 could go hand in hand and you gain so much respect from your dog by being in control, and people and dogs can walk passed without fear. Its not an easy task, but these are not easy dogs, and so worth it when you get on top of it.

So be determined and go for it, for your sake, your dogs, and all you meet on your walks.  

Right - you have had help.

1/ Do not walk these dogs together. Walking them together sets them up to practice the unwanted behaviour over and over. The more they practice it, the worse they will get and the harder to cure.

2/ Keep any dogs who have poor/inconsistant recall on a long line and harness at ALL times unless they are in a secure area, where no one can enter without you seeing, and there are no other dogs/people (sometimes tennis courts on parks are good).

3/ Teach dog new recall command if they have learned to ignore the old one. A whistle is good as it always sounds the same and doesnt give you away if you are panicky or cross or stressed out. If you dont know the best way to teach a recall, do ask or do a search on here.

4/ Try clicker training dogs individually at home and out and about, it increases their bond with you, boosts their confidence. Doesnt matter what you teach ANY training will make a dog more obedient even if its fun silly tricks.

5/Limit rough play between this group of dogs, as point number 1, the more they do it, the more they will do it and the harder it is to stop. They will then NOT understand that other dogs do NOT like to play as roughly as they do. If you continue to allow this group of dogs to play roughly with one another, the chances are you will NEVER be able to have them play with dogs they meet on walks, as they will be too rude and boisterous and get aggressive when the other dogs ask them to back off or react badly, and you will have constant problems.

It is a pain if you like to walk together, but the dogs needs come first. I do NOT walk all five of my dogs together, my collie would lead my deerhound pup into trouble, my saluki is too old to run with the deerhound etc etc. There are friends of mine whose dogs I do not walk some of mine with either, because they get too giddy and silly and become a danger to others. That is, I am afraid, called being a responsible dog owner.

Finally - the advice given above I and a fair few others on this forum would charge you around £40 + an hour for... take it in the spirit it is given, ie freely and in the hope you and your dogs will benefit from it. It may not be what you want to hear, but it IS the truth and it IS what needs to be done.

Your alternative is to accept that as the saying goes... if you do what you have always done, you will get what you have always got. Ie, nothing will change, you will likely find yourself with dogs the police class as dangerously out of control in a public place and risk losing them and huge fines.

It was me astarte...I said in my post that If someones dogs attacked me when I was carrying a baby that I was likely to have already reported them to the police and knocked their teeth out which was followed by a smiley. This unidentified person who is responding, is clearly upset about that, probably as this person is unable to understand my post. ( I think there may be a literacy issue). I do not apologise for having made this statement...it was very obviously not a threat. The unknown person making this post clearly has some difficulty with the realisation that what has happened with these dogs is REALLY BAD, as seen by that persons willingness to say that these dogs are sweet etc . I think its clear that we are not going to get anywhere reasoning with this person.

yeah, i was a bit confused why they sent it to me, guess their not used to the site. though i actually agree with you :) i've had no quams in the past forcibly removing a dog from my dogs (sorry but they are mine to look after and i won't have them savaged!) and i'd vertainly do the same if a dog came for my nephew (which is how it will have seemed to the woman i'm sure- must have been terrifying!)

Hi y'all,

Wow, what responses!  I think we should all appreciate Simsimma wants a solution to the problem.  I think she takes all your issues on board and seems to want to fix her bitches behaviour, so with that in mind no one asked what you would do just for advice.  The was no suggestion that she only wanted people to agree with her or why would she be here.  It seems that we are not seeing the real issue.  There is no evidence of no remorse, the exact opposite from what I've read.  She seeks advise from us as responsible owners and also from other sources so lets climb of the high horse before we put others of seeking much needed advice. :o)

"so with that in mind no one asked what you would do just for advice"

I am sorry if I am being a bit dopey here, and maybe you have mistyped something, but I do not understand this statement, no mater how many times I read it. You seem to be possibly implying that no advice has been given on this thread. Perhaps you should actually re read the thread.
The OP has been given an awful lot of advice, most of it repeated by different members, including myself, all with significant experience:

>advised to separate the dogs
>advised to keep the bitch on a lead
>advised to go back to basic obedience training, recall work
>advised to see a behaviourist
>advised that the dogs behaviour is dangerous and must be stopped

You are surely not really claiming that the OP has not been given advice? ......the issue is also confused by another person, who is clearly not simmsimma, using simsimmas username to post. It is however coming over in the post ( and not only to me, but to others) that the OP has some difficulty in recognising the seriousness of the situation....PARTICULARLY in view of the fact that she was perfectly aware the dogs have this tendency of aggression in a pack, and unacceptable behaviour toward other dogs and persisted in allowing the dogs to run in a pack off lead .

Surely you must understand that the strong feelings expressed on this board are not being stated for fun or entertainment......The severity of the responses is a relection of the inherently dangerous situation that occurred in the park with this woman and her baby. I must admit, that when the post went temporarily quiet I feared that it may have been because the OP may possibly have been visited by the police.

Simmsimma HAS been offered practial solutions to the problem.
What do you want us to say? that its ok to let your dogs attack people in the park?

PS I have re read simmsimmas posts, and I still cannot see anywhere where she says she is sorry about the woman and her baby, nor that she has done anything in the way of apology, and she said after the event that she felt it was still ok to let her bitch off lead....so NO I have not actually seen any signs of remorse.

Not at all...  I do feel that there have been many valid points on what should be done to retrain the bitch.  I in no way want to come across as if no valuable points have been made.  I merely state that there is a positive way to speak to people...  Flies, honey, vinegar spring to mind.  It was you that mentioned literacy before is that right?!

> so with that in mind no one asked what you would do just for advice

perhaps its supposed to read "no one asked what you would do, just for advice"? ... which makes no sense as advice is usually what you would do in that situation...confused.

i agree, good advice has been given, and the concern was ased on fairly flippant remarks so i don;t really think any of us were in the wrong

I don't see why she has to say sorry to us.  Maybe we expect different things.  The fact that she is on this sight trying to find a solution is proof enough for me she wants to sought this problem out.  Did you ask her if she apologised to the woman as it seems a real bug bear to you?

Yes I did mention literacy.....If you read the post with more care you will see that that remark was raised about a post made by someone "OTHER" than Simmsimma. It was a person who was NOT simmsimma, posting under Simmsimmas name. If you also read it again you will see that that particular poster ( whoever it was)  had written a virtually unintelligible post. This was not only my view, but that of  the first person that answered them. It is therefore clear that I was NOT posting about Simmsimma, as it was not simmsimma making the post. It is also clear that due to the unintelligible nature of the post, that the person making that post MAY not have a great command of english...or they could have considered using it! Hence the literacy comment....it was possible that the poster may not be able to understand the previous posts well if they are unable to converse in english.

Astarte, I have no issue with the points made.  You and many appear to genuinely want to help.  I am a believer in treating people with respect especially those who do not purposely offend.  Maybe others get a buzz from having expertise that I myself lack but I just wanyed to point out that it could be intimdating for those who want to ask a question. 

I am not going to argue  further with you soulbutterfly....it is clear that you and I will not agree on this....and my opinion is supported by many others that I respect. I do not wish you to post to me again.

I read the post too but it did not inspire an aggresive response from me.  We all no the seriousness of the incident.  Maybe the person was just young and forgot themselves...  It's not what you say....  Blah, blah, blah

Oops, so as not to get the same treatment as simsimma, aggression has TWO s's.  :O)

i think that everyone wanted to help and granted some strong comments may have been made, but soulbutterfly incidents like this terrify some dog people (myself included) as they feed the 'dangerous dogs' hype. if any posts were rather strong it comes from a depth of feeling and i am sure a level of offence at the reputation it can create for those of us who do handle our dogs well. i quite agree with pinklillies comments, the OP seemed rather flippant regarding the attack against the woman and appeared shocked and offended at the suggestion that her dog be kept on lead.

i appreciate it can be quite intimidating but thats the joy of an internet forum :) i am far more forward here than in real life, there is no potential comeback that you cannot avoid if you so choose, the op is losing nothing in responding in kind. i appreciate that your trying to see the other side of the story but this is a really serious incident and we are all trying to help as best we can.

>Oops, so as not to get the same treatment as simsimma, aggression has TWO s's.

If you read the thread you'll notice that the illiterate post was made by someone saying that s/he wasn't Simsimma, but just happened to be using Simsimma's login details ...

soulbutterfly there is not any need to pick fights with pinklillies, she, like you, was trying to do the right thing and provide good advice. shes also not the only one that requested the mystery poster avoid using "txt speak"

I am a bit confused as I came across an earlier post by the name Simsimma as follows:

I have a 15 mth old male, i also own mum,my problem with him is when i tell him off or smack his nose he growls and goes to bite me,this morning he got out of the front door and onto the drive i managed to grab his collar and he went to attack me, he hasn.t managed to bite me yet but he really scared me this morning he is normaly a big softee who weighs in at 9 stone so he is a handful !!! Please help as my son said if he carrys on we will have to put him to sleep which i don.t want to do.

Simsimma, Am I right in thinking that the breeder owns mum and brother and you own the female?

I have read the various posts and I really feel that people have given you good advice. I think that your female has risen above her status and there are dominancy issues, thus the reason she is marking and urinating where people sleep.

In my opinion the problem that you have with her demonstrating aggression to other dogs will continue to escalate.

I will be honest, if I had a dog approach my junior GSD showing aggressive tendencies. a dog which is offlead and not under control I would be mortified.

Now my female GSD is fabulous with other dogs and she has excellent doggy manners, however if we approach another dog I have not met previously i will put her back on the lead and ask her to sit and wait which she does quite happily until the dog passes by. If on speaking to the other dogs owner they confirm their dog is fine with other dogs, then I am happy for her to socialise with them and for her to have a play. The reason I do this is sometimes other dogs can be dog aggressive and I can imagine there is nothing worse than their owner trying to hold their dog when an offlead dog is sniffing around their dog who is going nuts. Also one bad encounter with a dog can lead to so many problems. I had a male GSD once who was attacked by a staff when he was only 12 months old. My GSD was on his lead, the staff was offlead with a young boy who had no control over him whatsoever. Up to that point my male GSD was great with all dogs. After the attack he would be quite verbal if he seen anything that resembled a staff. He was fine with all other dogs. So it can have a tremendous impact on later life.

If she were my dog and I was seeking help, I would pay for a behaviouralist to come to see her. I would definitely not allow her to be offlead in the vicinity of other dogs. At the end of the day you are not being fair to fellow dog owners allowing an aggressive female to intimidate and worse still bite or god forbid seriously injure another dog. Females fighting can be a lot worse than males fighting. If she was offlead, then a muzzle would have to be a suitable course of action.

The urinating on the bed needs to be addressed. In my view, right or wrong, by her doing this she is showing dominance and attention seeking and this should be nipped in the bud straight away.

I agree with the other posts recommending she should not be walked with her brother. On reading the previous post in italic above, it appears that he also has dominancy issues too and they are probably feeding off each other.

I think that everyone who has posted has given good advice and I believe the advice was given in good faith to try and help your situation and none of it is given to criticise. Sometimes when things are put in black and white it can sometimes be hard to swallow and advice can be taken the wrong way and the issue can be sensitised, but please read the posts for what they are and see that everyone is trying help. I really hope you can find a good behaviouralist to work with who can put your female on the right path.

Kind regards

Claire

Irresponsible dog owners, and if Simsimma does not see the seriousness of her dogs behaviour, nor feel the need to put into action the suggestions given she most definately falls into that category, does INDEED owe every SINGLE one of the responsible dog owners in this country an apology.

It is because of irresponsible owners we have the harsh laws and likely getting harsher by the day, surrounding what a dog may or may not do, and what breeds we may own.

Every time a non dog person sees a dog behaving badly, its another strike against dogs in general and one we can well do without.

When someone behaves irresponsibly with a bull breed the effect is ten times worse, and this IS WHY we are banned from keeping pitbulls, and this is why EVERY time a bull breed steps out of line it hits the news in a big way and those who own bull breeds and bull breed crosses struggle to walk their well behaved pets without abuse and filthy looks from members of the public.

So that might be why Simsimma has touched a nerve with a lot of people on here.

Astarte I really don't understand your post and feel it is quite bizarre.  The opposite of what you have stated is also true.  This is an open forum and people searching for things like 'dog bite' may come across this post if they use google.  I believe there is a serious problem with this dog but using inflammatory language isn't helpful as those people not familiar with bigger or bull breeds will become even more terrified of the capacity of bigger dogs which fuels the negative hype even more. 

> i think that everyone wanted to help and granted some strong comments may have been made, but soulbutterfly incidents like this terrify some dog people (myself included) as they feed the 'dangerous dogs' hype. if any posts were rather strong it comes from a depth of feeling and i am sure a level of offence at the reputation it can create for those of us who do handle our dogs well.
>

I also don't understand why you would be more forward and 'intimidating' here than you would in face to face contact.  People should show the same courtesy and respect online as they would face to face.  The anonymity is not an excuse for bad or intimidating behaviour.  You were a new poster here very recently so should know what it is like to enter a world where although people are familiar online they would walk past each other on the street as they have no idea who they speak to online.  Champdogs should not be an intimidating forum or a clique and it is posts like yours that drive people away from the forum. 

> i appreciate it can be quite intimidating but thats the joy of an internet forum :-) i am far more forward here than in real life, there is no potential comeback that you cannot avoid if you so choose, the op is losing nothing in responding in kind. i appreciate that your trying to see the other side of the story but this is a really serious incident and we are all trying to help as best we can

what i ment was not to justify forceful posts but rather to explain that if people did post strongly i was simply due to being upset by the incident.

i also did not mean to suggest that people can be more intimidating on a forum, i actually ment that they can be less intimidating to answer because your not face to face with someone- many people are shy in a person to person situation and all i ment was that in this context it is often easier to communicate because shyness is not a factor. clearly i did not put that across well

I totally agree that people can and mostly do come across much more confident on a forum than face to face.  And I think you wrote that very clearly in your post Astarte so do not worry.

Hello this is Simsimma who own's mum and son and who's neighbours and close friends own the BITCH and the other postee (re text messaging) is owner of another one of my bitch pups. Im the one who walks with the said bitch which has now come to a stop as we have taken your points on board.My two olde tyme bulldogs never insitgated the sitution. Mum is as good as gold off the lead but brother and sister can become very naughty together like 2 toddlers and i will admit they do think they own the park so your advice has been used it is a real shame they can't be allowed to walk together as they play and run around like love's young dream.We have also started with the clicker training as i have different problems concerning my dog (as some of you may of read OLDE TYME BULLDOG) so many thanks for your advice