Hi everyone, new to this forum but have been posting on another international dog forum for a while.  I need a fresh approach, I think they're all sick of me haha!!

My 10 month old Patterdale has me very well trained.  She refuses virtually all the delicious foods I've tried with her, and has me wringing my hands in consternation every day as I struggle to keep weight on her (the vet confirmed that she is marginally underweight for her age and breed).  I'd be really grateful for some ideas and other experiences.....

I was going to type out a list of all the foods she has refused, but there are so many I'm embarrassed!!  Suffice to say, I have tried almost every commercial wet or dry puppy/junior dog food, which she simply will not eat.  I finally succumbed to pressure and started her on a carefully researched home-cooked diet a few weeks ago, plus some tried and tested fail-safe tempting treats, most of which she has walked away from.

I know terriers can be fussy over food, and I do realise that this may be my own fault.  I have tried to be tough on her, and leave food down for a limited time, and tried to stick to one type of food (to no avail, obviously).  My husband, the toughest tough guy who ever lived, can't bear to see her not eating, because she gets masses of exercise - she "goes to work" 5 days per week, where she has unrestricted access to 50 acres of land.  Currently, she will deign to eat only cooked beef or chicken (provided it isn't contaminated by any other type of food), and may also eat the odd biscuit.  I have managed to get 400g onto her rangy 5kg frame over the last 3 weeks, by sending her to work with extra rations of cooked chicken or beef, but over the last few days she has been refusing even chicken.

All I want is to for her to eat consistently, and with enthusiasm, 3 times a day.  I read in an old post a suggestion about not offering her any food at all for 3 days, but how can I do that to a dog that runs around like a loony for 7 hrs a day?  She drops weight so easily.  On the other hand, when she had a week off work with a torn claw and was on lead exercise only, she got quite chunky on her normal rations.....

What do you think?  Feel free to be blunt, I suspect I know what's coming!!

:)

Susie

I've never had problems getting any of my dogs to eat until my Akita came along, from the min I got her home she started to become slightly fussy.  She would quite often go for 3 days without eating much if anything at all!
I was really strict and she had her food put down for 15 mins maximum for each meal, if not eaten it was taken away.  No treats or extra's were given between meals either.
I eventually had a breakthrough when she was around 2 yrs old, I had put her back on Arden Grange Performance and decided that was all she was getting and now age 3 she eats most meals.  We still have the odd occasion when she doesn't eat but overall she's not too bad.

Totally understand your concern as she is running around all day.  Has the vet examined her throughly to check for any medical issues???

Hi!

At her 9 month check, the vet seemed happy with all her vital signs but pointed out that she was a little underweight - not seriously so, her spine is not prominent, but she is ribby.  A little terrier should be all muscle, certainly one as fit as her!  She had only gained 150g since her last check 2 months earlier, which is very little.  The vet gave me a target of 200g, which she had to gain over a 4 week period - if she fails to gain, or even loses weight, during that period, then they want to do blood test for the dreaded porto-systemic shunt.

My frantic doggy (thats doggy, not dodgy) cooking has successfully put 400g on her in 2 weeks - steady there chubs! - which is great, but now she is refusing her absolute favourite food in the world, cooked chicken, I'm anxious that she will lose it all again.

She is otherwsie well - happy and alert, full of energy, into everything.  I did mention to the vet that she chooses to eat an awful lot of grass and plants when out, which may or may not cause her to vomit.  She is also fond of drinking stagnant water, and eating horse poo.  I suspect all of this could contribute to her on/off appetite to a degree, but the vet didn't seem to think that was pretty normal and wasn't anything to worry about?  I am uneasy that she has some kind of underlying stomach discomfort, to need to consume so much grass?

When my Akita misses a meal she will eat grass and then sick up some bile, this is normal when they have an empty stomach.  Obviously if it was happening all the time, large amounts etc then always worth asking your vets.

Would your normal routine be to change her food the minute she becomes fussy and refuses it?  If yes, then she has probably picked up on this and is waiting to see what else you offer her!  I would carry on giving her what she gets now as that put the weight on her and don't offer anything new or different.  Stick it out, don't cave in if she refuses to eat and I would say by after a few days she will eat abit...even if its only a small amount.

If she seems healthy, which she does to be running around all day, every day then be a little strict with her meals and hopefully she'll be the one to give in and eat!

Hi Suzie

My paterdale is 18 months old and is fussy with food.  Basically we got her in October and had been told that all she was used to eating was dry mixer food.  Anyway I wasn't keen on this and went down the tinned dog food route but with mixer biscuits added.  At first she wolfed the tinned food down as though it was the best food she ever had.  Then after a few months she started refusing it, I did all the bad things that I know you shouldn't do but she is my first dog.  I tried cajoaling her, spoon feeding her, even mixing some digestive biscuits in there, to which her response was to find the digestive and leave the rest.  I have got this thing about dogs not eating, it drives me insane as like you I know that she needs it to maintain her health.  It became a power struggle in the end I think.  So after reading on the web about others with similar problems I now put the food bowl down and after 5 minutes if it isn't eaten it gets thrown in the bin (and I refused to give her any snacks/chews/treats).  The first time I did this she missed 3 meals (2 breakfasts and one evening) before she finally got the message and ate it all in one go.  I also put the same variety of food out at each meal, so I am not giving in to her and swapping a meal that she is not eating for one another type of dogfood.  As a result of this if she goes through a fussy stage now I call Bess into the kitchen, I take away her chews and say no, as I put them away in the cupboard and then make her watch as I put the food into the bin, and  show her the empty bowl.  Even though it goes against the grain as I hate seeing her not eat, I am of the opinion that when she is really hungry she will eat what is on offer.  When she has eaten her food I then make a big fuss of her and return her chews to her.  Although I have to say I am still not convinced that she is eating enough.  She gets half a tin of dog food twice a day mixed with a handful of mixer biscuit (she tends to leave most of the mixer biscuit though).  When on the tin it says she should be having 1-2 tins a day, but If I try increasing the amount I give her she seems to get overfaced with too much food in her bowl and leaves half of it. 

Can't help thinking if she's full of Horse poo and grass then she won't have room for dinner LOL

Most dog food manufacturers put WAY too much on the recommended amounts!!!!   I would think a whole tin of dog food and equal mixer biscuit would be far more than a small terrier like a Patterdale needs!  As a comparison my full grown Bedlingtons (weight 10k) each get about 100 grams of kibble daily!

I don't know where you got the idea that all terriers are fussy eaters   I have terriers now and have lived with them in the past and none were fussy eaters    

However, most young dogs seem to go through a 'fussy' stage at some point, and this is where owners come unstuck!   I've had it with our own dogs.  As the youngster reaches the end of their growth and begins to reach adult(ish) size their growth slows down, this is the time when they naturally need  a little less food ;)  but if the owner hasn't noticed or isn't aware of it then they think the dog is bored with their food and either change the food or start trying to 'tempt' the dog with niceties ;)   and you know where this is going.....

Like you, the first time I experienced it, I changed the food/s, then started feeding lovelies on top, then only feeding the lovelies, and the dog appeared to eat nothing for over a month!  Vet checks found nothing wrong, but we had the same thing as you, got to put on a little in x days etc.    

What I noticed was that the dog would eat anything we were eating, crisps, biccies, meat etc. but not if we put it in his bowl ;)  So I bit the bullet, decided what food I wanted him to eat, and starved him for 2 days, no food, no titbits, no horse/cat poo, nada!  then the first day of feeding I gave him just a small portion (about 1/5th) of what was supposed to be his ration.  He had 10 mins to eat it.  First day he ate 3 bits of kibble   but then he got nothing till the next day, when he finished the small portion (about 1/5th)  then the next day he was given about 1/4 and ate the lot, next day he got 1/3rd and finished that, and so on, he never ate a whole ration, it was more than he needed, but once he was a good weight he had about 3/4 of what was on the box, which was right for him.   He never looked back!

These days I also make the dogs work for their dinner,  they have to wait by the front door and then run through the house when I call them - great fun and they have good recalls and good restraint (wait!)

If the Vet can't find anything wrong, then she's likely got you trained, something a terrier will find fairly easy to do as they're very bright and good at working things out!

Staff - well, I certainly don't cave in instantly when she refuses to eat what is on offer, but I will leave it down so she can go back to it later.  Occasionally after her pre-bedtime wee, she may come back indoors straight to her bowl and eat the lot, if I've left it down from earlier and she's hungry enough!  So no I don't offer her a load of different things, but I do allow her several opportunities to eat what is available.  If she refuses to touch or picks at her food for more than 4-5 days, I will try varying it slightly or mixing it with something else.  The only food she has ever eaten without fail is the cooked meat.  I've offered it to her raw but the minute her nose touches it she runs away like she's been kicked, funny dog!

Kboyle111 - hmmm, interesting, another picky patterdale!  Nellie won't eat tinned dog food at all, the only thing she ever agreed to taste was the Natures Diet Junior, but she quickly started to refuse to even look at the bowl if that was what was in it.  Funny that you say your Pat gets "overwhelmed" with food, Nellie is the same - we are likely to have more luck with several small portions per day, than trying to get her to eat a big bowl of food.  The trouble is, when she is "at work" she is totally absorbed by the action she may be missing, so she rarely eats when she is there.  Its very hard for me to get a days ration into her via one meal!

I just feel so anxious that as long as she is not taking on food, the weight is dropping off her tiny frame every day that she runs around that 50 acre estate.  We once worked out that my husbands walks about 7 miles per day on the estate, so if she is always by his side, plus the circuits she runs around the fields when he is working the machines, all the rabbit chasing and playing with the other dogs, how many miles is she clocking up?!!!

I guess I will have to be tougher, and simply trust that she won't starve herself.........yikes!

Oops sorry Dill our posts crossed!  Thanks for that advice, I'm sure you are right in everything you say......its hilarious really, my husband says I'm too soft and treat her like a lapdog (which I certainly do not :)), yet the moment I say she is going to have to go hungry for a couple of days to train her to eat what she is given, he says I'm being mean and I catch him hand-feeding her!

Ha ha!   Your OH is a softy! (mine too :) )

This is what was happening with our fussy dog, OH and child were giving tidbits I didn't know about and the cats also contributed   I didn't realise a dog could survive on 'tootsie rolls'  Eeeeew!

Once we were all 'singing from the same songsheet' we got it sorted in about 2 weeks!    In the end it was harder training the family than the dog!!!!!

Aaargh, you're right this is a large part of the problem.  At work, the house manager (mother-in-law of the big boss) smuggles Nellie indoors and feeds her chicken and Shmackos, just cos she's cute.  This can happen when hubby is not around, he doesn't always know unless the security guards on duty tell him.  Also, with this manager being directly connected to the boss, it is hard to ask her to please not feed our dog!  There are 6 other dogs on site which belong to the family, and she treats them all like babies, so it seems she has taken Nellie into the fold.

Hubby did catch the chauffeur feeding her biscuits and half of his lunch, and managed to put a stop to that.  The rest of the staff know not to feed her.  As for other treats at home - she only gets the odd biscrock, bonio or markie form us, and mostly she just buries them under my pillow ;).  Unless she's famished from refusing proper food, in which case she smuggles them into our bed and eats them under the covers.

I've just e-mailed Burns nutrition, asking them for advice too.....

I wouldn't feed Burns - it's reknowned for keeping dogs lean and a lot seem to lose condition on it because of the very low fat content. Have you tried raw green tripe?

Ooh really?  Hmmm thanks for that info, a low fat diet is certainly something she doesn't need.

Can I get green tripe from the butcher?  What is it anyway?  Pardon my ignorance.......should I add it in slowly?

Ta!

Stop offering different foods.

Stop ANY treats and prevent access to large amounts of horse poo etc.

Stop leaving food down. If she doesnt eat it immediately, pick it up and put it in the fridge.

I would try a raw diet, because I feed raw, but basically as long as shes eaten it a few times in the past then she likes it, so give it to her and dont be fobbed off.

Shes not eating, in all likelyhood because she doesnt need to, she gets enough in teh way of treats and stuff, and the odd mouthful of food here and there, and food is left down for her so theres little incentive to eat waht shes given, when shes given it.

She will not, unless shes very ill and I do doubt that, starve herself.. so decide on what shes having, put it down at the same time each day, give her 10 minutes max, and pick it up and put it away. Nothing at all should be given until the next meal time and if you want to get REALLY tough, offer 2/3ds of what shed normally have (certainly if you feed raw, that would be perhaps a table spoon of meat, a small chicken wing, a third of a tin of pilchards etc).

Small terriers need VERY little food - my large staffie x terriery job, eats perhaps 3 tablespoons of meat in one meal and a third of a tin of pilchards in another, and thats it. And he is porky on that!

Our small terrier cross is very lean and does not eat a lot. Some days he will eat his food and other days he won't. The food is left down for 15 minutes and then disposed of - usually by our other dog :) I think he is just genuinely not very hungry at times and so only eats what he needs. Some days he will be eager for his food and other days he is not interested at all. I don't worry about this particularly, he is active and healthy and believe he just doesn't have a big appetite. He still gets offered his two small meals a day and pleases himself as to whether or not he eats it - I feed raw to my dogs.

Hi Susie72
I have recently had the same problem with my terrier who is supposed to be on the stocky side. Have a look at my post 'wits end with non eating dog'.

I decided that i would try the strict method and not give in with all the added extras just to get her near the bowl. I found she liked small complete biscuits so used eukanuba small bite and now on arden grange junior (use AG prestige for my others so easy to order the junior at the same time), she gets cheap old chappie mixed with it or some other cheap version of wet food. I tried all the expensive high meat content wet foods and none of it made any difference except 'applaws' dog food, but this works out very expensive (a nice food though and is just like fresh cooked chicken).

It was very hard to do but we are now at the stage where she comes to the bowl once its put down and will eat, sometimes all of it sometimes half of it BUT i dont watch her anymore or add stuff to get her to carry on eating and the minute she walks away from the bowl i pick up what she's left.

I came to the conclusion that she would not starve herself but she may lose a little weight in the beginning, this was difficult as i show her and the critiques she's had have said 'need to body up'.

All i can is that your dog sounds very fit and well if working to full potential and she knows she's got you sussed!!!

Be strong and try for a few days of the same food mixed with cooked chicken, dont watch her, leave her to eat and then return after 15mins and pick the bowl up.

Lorri

> All I want is to for her to eat consistently, and with enthusiasm, 3 times a day

Why? At 10 months old your Patterdale is virtually fully grown - she will just body up with maturity. She will be perfectly happy with one meal a day - or two if you must.

> the vet confirmed that she is marginally underweight for her age and breed

She sounds like a typical rangy teenager to me. She's obviously got lots of energy and seems to have organised plenty of people into giving her titbits as and when she wants them. Forget about the food issue. Give her one decent meal a day (NOT Burns) and enjoy the fact that you've got a fit, healthy athlete - far, far better than a youngster who is already a podge at that age.

I have two Patterdales, and they are out with me around horses all day. They are both lean but full of energy.

> I know terriers can be fussy over food

Really? None that I've known :)

> when she had a week off work with a torn claw and was on lead exercise only, she got quite chunky on her normal rations

So she must have been eating something ;)

Lincolnimp - thanks!  Your Pats clearly get on ok with horses then, Nellie is around a few during the day at work too - she likes them well enough but she can get a bit boisterous!

I guess I let the vet spook me with her comments about the dog needing to put weight on.  You're absolutely right, she's just a growing adolescent and she is very fit.  She has never been much interested in food during the day, to be honest it will be much easier just giving her one meal - especially if its a quality complete food.

I started on her new regime tonight, and my husbands first comment was that the meal just didn't look big enough for her.  She's eaten about half of it in 15 mins, which is pretty good considering I mixed in some of her new food.  It smells so nice I could almost eat it myself.

She is currently running around the house like a loon with a big red ball in her mouth, completely unconcerned that I am removing her dinner and she can't have it later!

S

Sounds like a pretty normal terrier then! :) :)

susie72,

You may have heard of an old terrier man, now dead, by the name of D Brian Plummer. He invented the Plummer Terrier and the Sporting Lucas Terrier and always worked his terriers, to fox, badger and hare when it was still legal and after that to rat. You may be familiar with his books.

Anyhow, he knew his dogs and he always said that dogs need flesh, proper meat, not dried or processed stuff. A dog's gut is short and ill designed to digest the plant products that are used as dog food filler (wheat and sugar beet). If they were made to be vegetarians they would have different dentition- although they will snack on a bit of fruit and boiled cabbage. Dog foods are made by comapnies out to turn the highest profit at the least expense to themselves. Just because the dog eats it doesn't mean it's right for them. After all how many kids would willingly live on a diet of sweets, Mcdollars and coker, if we let them?

A Patterdale is a proper, old working terrier type and I think your girl is simply letting you know what she needs- good for her. Stick to real meat with a bit of biscuit and you won't go wrong. Tinned mackerel and sardines, in oil, are good standbys. Try her on Freeflow green tripe and you may even consider going raw. Defrosted chicken wings are a great raw food. I have found the occasional (once a month tops) raw egg, complete with shell is enjoyed and it's fun to watch them find out how to eat it!

This has been a very interesting thread.Dill,i think your comments are very good.My 5 month old scottish terrier is not skinny,not fat(6.5k),and yet she eats very little as far as i'm concerned.She never wants food durring the day,eats about 50g of kibble in the evening and has a smelly tripe stick while sitting on my lap every evening.She's full of energy and why she's not skinny i dont know but i do wish she would eat more than one meal a day at her age.This thread has helped me relax a bit but i'd still like her to eat more.
I've been thinking of the dogs i saw in Nepal.They have so little food and scavenge for everything they can get and eat it with gusto when they can get it,i guess because they know they're not getting anything else unless they're lucky(ditto putting the food down for an allotted time and then removing it).Also remembering the way my parents were with our dogs in the 60's,they were given what we had in the evening and ate crazily.I can't remember the dogs being fussed over at all.It wasn't until the 70's that my mum bought pedigree chum and we all thought it was wierd to buy special food for dogs.Anyway,thanks for the input everybody,it has helped me.

> D Brian Plummer.

WOW that name brings back memories. All his books - rouges and/to? running dogs - all the lurcher men would talk about him. Sure he was always at Ardingly/Sussex too! We always would lamp those areas ;) lovely nights.....those were the days!

and always worked his terriers, to fox, badger and hare

apart from badgers who have a protected status...terrier work is still legal :)