Scenario: puppy sold as pet to new person in breed (endorsed papers)......person then decides to show it.......even gets a res cc with it.....however by 12 months is mouth is bad....really bad infact worst i have seen in the breed. Also breeder has slight concerns over temperament as seen it grumbling at judges and lunging at some male dogs.
Owner wants to breed from it....breeder wont lift endorsements for above 2 reasons.
owner gets hips/elbows/eyes tested...all good. also gets it registered as a pat dog.....and gets it assessed by behaviourist who says mainly ok....owner repeatedly asking for endorsements lifted.
any suggestions?
BTW puppy contract said that it would only be lifted if a) hound was of good enough quality to breed from b) healthy.
over to you folks!! :)

Would say the mouth alone would mean you would not lift the endorsement although in some breeds the mouths are all bad so that would be throwing the baby out etc. Not sure if the temperament was bad or not as it had become a pat dog and passed a temperament test may be it was just during it's teenage period and now adult has settled down to be a nice dog.

The owners are behaving responsibly and I think I would weigh the mouth and the good results against the rest of the breed and try to place this dogs credits and debits against the breeds norm. Sometimes a faulty mouth on an otherwise sound dog would in some breeds be a miracle.

Well it was sold as a pet.  Very strange for a dogs mouth to go wrong at such a late stage though isn't it, especially after winning a res. CC?

If the mouth was slightly bad and no other problems then I myself would let someone have a litter from it, but with temperament probs. also I can see where the breeders coming from.

One of my friends dogs grumbles away at people when they are stroking him but he's not nasty, it's just a grumble he does!

Seems to me the pup owner has done everything by the book in a positive way for the pup and, in my opinion, it would be unfair to penalise them for this.  A reserve challenge certificate with an incorrect mouth appears to acknowledge that the pup must be of otherwise reasonable quality - depending on the state of the breed in general I guess?  Although personally I would not condone breeding with an obvious breed fault I am realistic and know this happens.

If the breeder is seriously concerned about the temperament and mouth issues, I would also hope that he/she is seriously re-evaluating their own future breeding stock/plans and these issues are being taken into account? 

Either that or surely it is a case of "Do as I say, not as I do"

The mouth would bother me more as a young dog (presume male?) is probably just feeling hormonal and some basic training and correction would stop him lunging at other dogs - even in my own super-friendly breed it is not unknown for male entire dogs to have a grumble, but he should be distracted and corrected before taking it as far as lunging. But the mouth would definitely bother me more - might it improve further as he matures?

I gather it is the same breed as you own????
Is the mouth bad in the breed????
would putting a very good dog with a bad mouth WITH a very good dog sort out the bad mouth????
Lea :)

yes it is my breed and although 15 years ago mouths were a problem.....now they really are pretty good and a bad mouth is unusual. regarding res cc....it was a poor entry at the show!!!! The mouth went wrong before the res cc!!!
regardingthe temperament and the breeder.....none of the others in the litter are a prob and neither parent has had a cross word with anyone let alone growled at a human. Breeder very concerned that if litter thrown with either bad temp pups (and have to say that most males in the breed have the ability to be a problem unless very firmly handled) or horrendous mouths will be produced and everyone will blame it on his side /his breeding because of the dogs mouth.

Under the circumstances that you've explained, no, I wouldn't lift the endorsement.  And I'd be really unimpressed by the judge who didn't have the sense to with-hold the Res CC!!

just say no.
if they are new to the breed they wont be experance enough to breed anyway.

Why not suggest waiting for another year to see how he turns out?  I take it the dog in question is still relatively young (around a year).  Might be an idea to wait until he is a little bit maturer around the 2 years mark before considering to lift the restrictions.

that way, the time delay may give the breeder time to decide if he is just going through the "Kevin" stage or if his temperment is not up to much and at 2 his mouth surely would be more settled as to it should be (be it bad or otherwise).  It also might give the breeder time to put them off the idea of using him at stud!! 

Jill

unless there was another trumping reason to breed the dog then probably hold on to the endorsements. i mean that if the mouth was overshadowed by perfect conformation in every other respect then maybe it would be worth it- i don't know much about showing bloodhounds sam, are they a 'head' breed? given their appearance i'd assume so, as such it depends how much of an effect the mouth has.

the grumbling could be a number of things- bad temprement or as is suggested above simple "growing pains", his owners, breeder and breed experts like you would be best fit to judge having observed the behaviour and as such consider if its likely to be passed on.

we put endorsements on for a reason, we should stick to them. if the breeders got issues with pups coming from this dog then i say no- i think breeders need to think along the lines of "if i was getting a new dog would i want one out of this one?". i think from what you've said the answer would be no.

additionally you've a numerically small breed- but not critical, and you've mentioned frequently the need for a specific type of owner. as such i'd say only mate the really good ones (as we all should really). if the breed was really struggling and needed the mating to survive then yes but i think (please correct me if i'm wrong) your breeds numbers are fit enough to survive but small enough to keep them with the right sort of owners, they seem to have a healthy balance. as such whats the need to produce other than great quality pups?

well i certainly think "no" is the right answer.......he moves very well but is plain in other ways.....i think the grumbling has not been checked enough as a youngster (hes nearly 3 now) and hes been allowed to do it that its become habit. I know what mys suggestion will be about breeding from him, especially when litters are so infrequent and sires are available....but i think this person wants to use him on her own bitch .

As newcomers to the breed, I expect they'll find it very difficult to find homes for this rather specialised breed, especially if other breeders are reluctant to pass on enquiries, knowing about the sire's fault(s)

Are they still showing the dog-if so how is he doing now?

how good is the bitch? rings a couple of alarm bells for me, esp in such a difficult to home breed

yes hes still shown but when you only get 4 or 5 in a class then you get placed!!
i believe this person has become well known in the breed as she has got involved with an estableished breeder.....and is now on a comittee as well....not a backyard breeder in the making i am 100% sure of that.....just someone who wnats to use her own dog on her own bitch (breeder of dog not seen this bitch but thats irelvant really as once endorsement lifted its lifted permanently)

> not a backyard breeder in the making i am 100% sure of that

was not meaning to suggest that, just that it doesn't sound like a terribly well thought out mating. given that your breed is very specialist i should think that deliberately producing pups from mediocre dogs is not terribly sensible. back yard breeders are the worst but people who are in the breed, and should know better, produce problems for breeds to. i feel that unless you have people who really want a pup from a match for good reasons you shouldn't breed. JMO, but i suspect you agree sam, it doesn't sound like you rate this mating at all. i could maybe understand in a breed facing extinction, grab what you can, but your guys are comfortable in numbers.

Taking all things into consideration, not least that the breed in question has a small gene pool, wouldn't this animals virtues out weigh it's faults? It's not as if the breed is teeming with sound typey examples. IMHO

sams said that the dog rarely gets placed and then only if numbers are low. as such clearly there are better studs out there so why use this one?

> there are better studs out there so why use this one?

In a very small gene pool using only a handful of stud animals (albeit good quality ones) will ultimately condense the breed to a point where the pedigree reads like a stammer. If this young dog can offer anything to it's breed, at a time where many are concerned for it's future, then no bad thing IMHO.

my point was that the breeds not that small numerically, i believe their pretty sustainable (sam please correct me if i'm wrong). if they were in difficulty i;d share your view though, imaals for example need all they can get (i think?)

> my point was that the breeds not that small numerically

If it is the same breed as the OP then I believe that it is having difficulties.

toolz.......you are wrong!! It is my breed but we are not in difficulties......our number of pups registered havnt altered in decades and in the last few years we have never had such a genetic diversity in terms of new and unrelated blood coming into the breed. as for your comment on lack of sound examples....Il ignore that!!!
Back to original post......the sire and  1sibling of the dog in question have both been bred from and there is no lack of his genes in the system!!

Answered your own post then.

fail to see how i have done so....I asked for peoples thought on the situation thats all.

I wouldn't lift the endorsement period, the dog was sold as a pet, it has a fault that I would not breed from so the endorsement would stay. I would also put this is writing to the dog's owner, especially if there are other dogs of the same/similar bloodlines without the fault.