Margo is it me or you that has been on that Cooking Sherry ;-)

Is the example Carrington gave not based on if it was her mother :-)  

Yes, Blue, Carrington was talking about her mother - and the financial sitution.   I've turned the question round - and asked "what would happen if your mother was unable physically or mentally to look after her dogs in the future.   What would be her take on that position?

OH Ok penny dropping. :-)   I keep telling my mum her dogs would have to go to as she has 3 spoiled naughty dogs that bark non stop.  :-)

>>
> These dog boards are read by all sorts of people, including those that buy puppies from you.

Calmstorm, these are the same breeders who have stated in recent weeks that they would cull puppies for having the wrong colour feet, being the wrong sex or being surplus to needs.  I would much rather buy a pup from someone who feels that the dog's welfare is paramount than someone who kills pups for having the wrong colour feet.  But with all of these posts, we are all only expressing our opinions which are dependent on our value base - neither is right or wrong.

Calmstorm, these are the same breeders who have stated in recent weeks that they would cull puppies for having the wrong colour feet, being the wrong sex or being surplus to needs.  I would much rather buy a pup from someone who feels that the dog's welfare is paramount than someone who kills pups for having the wrong colour feet.  But with all of these posts, we are all only expressing our opinions which are dependent on our value base - neither is right or wrong.

I'm pretty sure no-one here has said they would cull a pup because it had the wrong colour feet. I also happen to believe (and although I like to think I could make the decision if I needed to, I'm not sure I could) that sometimes culling is for the best of the puppy when you look at the bigger picture.

Jackson, I believe it was someone Sam knows that does this.

> Calmstorm, these are the same breeders who have stated in recent weeks that they would cull puppies for having the wrong colour feet, being the wrong sex or being surplus to needs

I have nowhere seen it stated that breeders would cull for wrong coloured feet, only if they cannot assure the right homes for the number of pups born, or health reasons.  Maybe if they had to choose to have some culled they would choose the mismarks before the well marked ones.

Of course you wouldn't be having the option of pups that were not longer available as the number had been culled to a level that the breeder can assure find suitable homes, and for which lifetime responsibility can be offered.

> Yes, time away with extended family is good for them, but not for extended periods, at least not for me and mine. They are very confident teens, have happily gone off to adventure holidays alone cadets etc....but at an age when they understood time lapses. And not at a time of heightened family emotions, depression...suffering that comes with debt. At such times I would want to be there to reasure them all would be well, not go off and live elsewhere just because of a dog.

In all the times we have stuggled financially and when I myself have suffered from depression the children were never aware of it, arguments/serious discussions are never made infront of the children, they do not need to be lumbered with the burden of worry adults do.

I went on honeymoon without my children, they spent that time with thier nan and they loved every minute of it, 2 weeks. An occasional holiday without your children is not living the single life, I'd imagine the poster who said they have been away without thier children made sure there were plenty of activities for the children to do so they also had a good time. I think it's a great way to teach children some independence.
My husband often goes fishing for a weekend, very occasionally he'll be gone for a week, I don't consider him to be living the single life and the kids don't either, allthough we are a close family we all appreciate that we still are still individuals.
My husband work also means he can be away from us for a week - some times things need to be done for the best for the whole families future, a family member spending a short time away from the family - for the good of the family is not a selfish act.
For our family, none of us would deem it selfish or a hardship if one of us had to sleep in a different place than the rest in order to keep the dogs, because we all class the dogs as family members and we all would be willing to make sacrifices to keep them.

To twist things slightly, what would be your position should it be that your mother needed you to take care of her - if she were suddenly incapable of physically looking after herself/her dogs?


Sorry, missed this as it was not replied to myself. :-)

3 years ago my mother broke her ankle and had subsiquent problems afterwards, and she came to stay with me along with her 7 dogs, she was with me for 4 months (luckily hubby loves her :-) ) and I took on her dogs to walk, care for, inoculate, feed etc, every day, as well as helping her to hobble around. It was hard work having 8 dogs every day in house as I do not have kennels, I also have my brothers GSD's every now and again and other family dogs for weekends etc if they go away, so some weekends I had 10-15 dogs in my house.

Now that is ok to manage for a little while, but the truth is 4 months on, we'd all had enough.

Whenever I go away where my girl can not go she stays with family, but I only have one brother with a home large enough to look after 8+ dogs and he is in Devon, so my family and I could not go away with 8 dogs at home (imagine the kennel bills) and no-one but us to care for them.

It takes it's toll.

Which is why I can positively say if my mother were to become physically ill and needed to live with me 2 dogs would be the most we could permanently handle, otherwise our family life is taken over completely, everything would have to revolve around the dogs. Shock horror for some on the board, but for me my girl and any dog is there to enhance life, not run it.

Just to add incase this is what you wanted to hear even after the previous experience, yes, I would do it again if my mum were to have a medical problem for a few weeks, months, just not forever..........

In all the times we have stuggled financially and when I myself have suffered from depression the children were never aware of it, arguments/serious discussions are never made infront of the children, they do not need to be lumbered with the burden of worry adults do
Agree totally, but this does depend on the age and how 'quick' some children are to pick up on things. And, if your house is repossesed or you have bailiffs at the door, or going round the house valueing things, with maybe a policeman at the door to prevent a breach of the peace, its difficult I would think to hide it anymore.

Of course children love staying with grandma and grandpa, or the extended family, but this is in happy times, a treat very often. In their eyes anyway. Lose your house, lose the home comforts, the things the child is used to, thats the difference.

In years to come, they find they were put with extended family whilst the parents lived rough to look after the dogs, rather than accept accomadation where they could all live but the dogs had to go..great, putting the dogs before the children...living with them instead of the children. Depends on if your values give priority to the dogs or the kids really.

Its funny, but on here a while ago single parents were being told they shouldn't expect to 'dump' their kids with grandparents, yet it seems to be ok to do it for the good of an animal.

To those posters who consider human children no more important than dogs.

I wouldn't be so very confident that your children 'understand' that they are no more important to you than a dog.
They have no choice, as children, but to put up with the status quo. A child being brought up in a family considers it's upbringing to be 'normal'. Only when grown up and independent do they review their family life and judge it.
These children may grow up with issues -  after all their mother loved her dogs as much as them.
Sounds like a topic for a day-time chat show

I have gone to school with kids, and have met kids on the horse show circut, that were treated as second to the animals, and believe me they know at a young age. When they are going to school in secondhand or worn out clothes or shoes, when their lunch is a scrape of something on thin cheap bread, and knowing tea may not happen, never allowed to follow their own interests or hardly ever allowed to mix with their own friends. Are very often dirty/smelly because the house stinks of dogs/cats, or their Mum is to busy with the animals to wash clothes. This is from homes of Ch dogs and cats, or homes with horses in the yard. If they afford their lifestyle going round shows, owning many animals, why should the kids be neglected? Which it is. Neglect.

These children may grow up with issues -  after all their mother loved her dogs as much as them.
Sounds like a topic for a day-time chat show

Is this as sarcastic as I feel it is?

> Is this as sarcastic as I feel it is?

Not in the slightest.
I think we are singing from the same hymn sheet here.

Ok, sorry :)

To those posters who consider human children no more important than dogs.

I wouldn't be so very confident that your children 'understand' that they are no more important to you than a dog.
They have no choice, as children, but to put up with the status quo. A child being brought up in a family considers it's upbringing to be 'normal'. Only when grown up and independent do they review their family life and judge it.
These children may grow up with issues -  after all their mother loved her dogs as much as them.
Sounds like a topic for a day-time chat show

I have gone to school with kids, and have met kids on the horse show circut, that were treated as second to the animals, and believe me they know at a young age. When they are going to school in secondhand or worn out clothes or shoes, when their lunch is a scrape of something on thin cheap bread, and knowing tea may not happen, never allowed to follow their own interests or hardly ever allowed to mix with their own friends. Are very often dirty/smelly because the house stinks of dogs/cats, or their Mum is to busy with the animals to wash clothes. This is from homes of Ch dogs and cats, or homes with horses in the yard. If they afford their lifestyle going round shows, owning many animals, why should the kids be neglected? Which it is. Neglect.

These children may grow up with issues -  after all their mother loved her dogs as much as them.
Sounds like a topic for a day-time chat show

Is this as sarcastic as I feel it is?

Oh dear.....

My children don't need to 'understand' anything other than that I absolutely love and adore them, would do my very best for them in any circumstance, and would go to the ends of the earth to ensure they are happy. They are not in the slightest bit neglected, and have the very best of everything, including my time. I take them to youth clubs, swimming lessons, riding lessons, music lesons, after school sports clubs etc etc. But they also appreciate that I cannot spend every second of my day with them and need some 'me' time.

Whether my dogs mean more, less or are equal to them simply doesn't come into it. My children have everything they need, most importantly my love and affection. So is how important my dogs are to me really relevant?

I think sometimes people forget, years ago when families were larger, it was very common for some of the childrne to stay with, live with or periodically stay with other family members. My Granmother was one of 13, and that certainly happened a lot in her childhood. Did she grow up with 'issues'? No.

Whether my dogs mean more, less or are equal to them simply doesn't come into it. My children have everything they need, most importantly my love and affection. So is how important my dogs are to me really relevant?

Maybe not at the moment but it may become relevant if suddenly you were all living apart and your children suddenly didn't have their Mum there because of the dogs as well as losing everything else that was stable in their lives eg home and all the lessons etc.

So is how important my dogs are to me really relevant?

Its not, provided they are not missing out to the animals. or being second to them. Having the animals needs, and the parents needs, put before them. They didn't ask to be born, any more than the animal asked to come into the home. Of course parents need 'me time', parents would go mad if they didn't have some time to themselves, but when the parents needs, animals and hobbies are placed before the childs needs then there is a problem.

When I was single I would have gone to the ends of the earth to keep my dog, I did, I worked with a small wage with horses, the dog came everywhere with me except exercise and competitions, he was a very happy, totally well socialised dog who loved everyone and everything. When I had to have him pts at an old age (health) I was totally devestated, it truely broke my heart. So much so it was a long time before I could even think of having another, and I couldn't go anywhere near the fav places we walked. 20 odd years later I can still 'see' him running around these places. (Not his ghost, just the memory)

I still feel the same now, I would never give up my dog if it was at all possible. But, once I had my baby, my beloved new dog was not as important as the baby, despite still giving the same love and affection I felt different. New things come into it, and if I felt the writing was on the wall, and I could no longer give the dog I have now the same qualty of care, or to give that my children would suffer....then I love my dog enough to give the dog up.And my children come first.

What do breeders think then, when a family comes to them in dire financial/divorce/sickness needs, and want to return the dog? When a puppy, they will have been told to return the dog if they can no longer keep it, are they then treated as monsters? What is said to them, are they told they should have handled their finances better, are they told they shouldn't have had the puppy in the first place, or asked if they would get rid of their child so eaisly? Simply because they have made what could be a heartrending decision that their much loved dog has to go to a new home for its own benefit? is this guilt trip one of the reasons people don't return to the breeder, but find other ways? Rescue for example. Or advertising for a new home. None of us can predict the future, if that was so we would all be lottery winners.....:)

Its all well and good saying people shouldn't be in a credit mess. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, lots of us could change things or do things differently if given a second chance. A partner loss his job, takes on a lower paid one for the time being, the insurances, mortgage, council tax and all household bills still have to be paid. credit can be taken to patch the shortfall, a bit like woodchip paper and paint over blown plaster, it tides you over till you think you can be back on top again. The credit/loans may have been spent on food, basic living not living the high life. The problem comes when you don't get back on top.....if you have to give up an insurance, is it the dog one, the buildings one, the critical illness, the income protector....and if the dogs insurance has gone, what if......nd this is just a job loss, what about the partner that leaves, the partner thats ill, or if you live alone and are so ill you can't look after the dog, there are a multitude of reasons why people give up their dog. Why should they be made to feel anymore guilty that they already do, more heatbroken than they already are? I'm not talking about those that change their dog like the car, every three years, or simply get fed up, I'm talking genuine cases, and there are and will be many.

Maybe not at the moment but it may become relevant if suddenly you were all living apart and your children suddenly didn't have their Mum there because of the dogs as well as losing everything else that was stable in their lives eg home and all the lessons et

Very well said Paula.

I think sometimes people forget, years ago when families were larger, it was very common for some of the childrne to stay with, live with or periodically stay with other family members. My Granmother was one of 13, and that certainly happened a lot in her childhood. Did she grow up with 'issues'? No

years ago people were not allowed to have 'issues' they had to get on with things, no matter how they felt. Should they feel depressed, they were sent off to mental hospitals for 'treatment' which could have been electric shock therapy. The GP would prescribe the tranquilisers, the uppers and the sleeping pills, its the way people were treated years ago that gives us the more understanding approach today

> Its all well and good saying people shouldn't be in a credit mess. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, lots of us could change things or do things differently if given a second chance. A partner loss his job, takes on a lower paid one for the time being, the insurances, mortgage, council tax and all household bills still have to be paid. credit can be taken to patch the shortfall, a bit like woodchip paper and paint over blown plaster, it tides you over till you think you can be back on top again. The credit/loans may have been spent on food, basic living not living the high life. The problem comes when you don't get back on top.....if you have to give up an insurance, is it the dog one, the buildings one, the critical illness, the income protector....and if the dogs insurance has gone, what if......nd this is just a job loss, what about the partner that leaves, the partner thats ill, or if you live alone and are so ill you can't look after the dog, there are a multitude of reasons why people give up their dog. Why should they be made to feel anymore guilty that they already do, more heatbroken than they already are? I'm not talking about those that change their dog like the car, every three years, or simply get fed up, I'm talking genuine cases, and there are and will be many.

I couldn't agree with you more :-)

What do breeders think then, when a family comes to them in dire financial/divorce/sickness needs, and want to return the dog? When a puppy, they will have been told to return the dog if they can no longer keep it, are they then treated as monsters?

Your absolutely right, it is something we all say, and all mean, I always have it as part of my puppy pack, that if circumstances change the pup I bred will always have a home with me if the need to return whatever age from puppyhood to old age,  I mean it and know at the time that life changes, things happen, it should be of no surprise when it does.

Finances are now also becoming more of a reason as well as divorce, illness, death, and as breeders it is something to expect more and more, I know I do and will be expecting it and I doubt any of us will judge, no-one knows what is around the corner.

I would never give up my dog if it was at all possible. But, once I had my baby, my beloved new dog was not as important as the baby, despite still giving the same love and affection I felt different

I couldn't put that better myself. A child you give birth to or adopt is of more importance than any other animal or person alive, just as a pup you breed you will have more of a reponisibility to, it is what nature gave us maternal instincts.

And it doesn't bare well that anything should come before those instincts.

>I didn't actually say you had children then, but your post reads as above. I simply said I would never subject my kids to living in a car. ever. <

Nor would I Calmstorm, if I was ever in the same predicament today there would be no question of it as already quoted.

>Your ideas of parenting and mine obviously differ. Upsetting my dogs would be minor to upsetting my child....<

You're right - our ideas do differ - I did not take on the responsibility of dogs to upset them nor did I give birth to my daughter to upset her and so far - I haven't actually managed to in either case - so NOT an issue ;-)

>if you had money for vet bills?<

Yes we were assured by my Mum that should we need money in an emergency - then yes, she would cover it on her credit card and obviously we would have to pay it back at a later stage.

>These dog boards are read by all sorts of people, including those that buy puppies from you. One of the things about a responsible breeder is that they will take back any puppy they have bred for whatever reason including change of home circumstances. In fact, your contracts insist on it. Your true feelings about people who return puppies is certainly in print on here.<

Ummm, I'm not sure what you are getting at - I don't breed and have done so only once in the 25 yrs (17 yrs ago) that I have had the pleasure of owning dogs. Yes I whole heartedly agree, responsible breeders do take back puppies for whatever reason and I would be the first to condemn them should they not do so! Luckily my breeder is a dear friend and would help out if and when needed and should I ever find myself, after much consideration, in the 'breeder' situation again - then I would of course live up to my RESPONSIBILITY

But this debate still does not negate or excuse those irresponsible enough to dump their dogs at the first sniff of trouble they are the people that need to be educated - or banned from having dogs!

*Repeat post*

>These dog boards are read by all sorts of people, including those that buy puppies from you. One of the things about a responsible breeder is that they will take back any puppy they have bred for whatever reason including change of home circumstances. In fact, your contracts insist on it. Your true feelings about people who return puppies is certainly in print on here.
A general comment to all, not aimed at anyone in paticular.

You're right - our ideas do differ - I did not take on the responsibility of dogs to upset them nor did I give birth to my daughter to upset her and so far - I haven't actually managed to in either case - so NOT an issue
Good. I hope it never comes to it. :)

Yes we were assured by my Mum that should we need money in an emergency - then yes, she would cover it on her credit card and obviously we would have to pay it back at a later stage

You were lucky to have such backup. Not everyone does.


But this debate still does not negate or excuse those irresponsible enough to dump their dogs at the first sniff of troublemad they are the people that need to be educated - or banned from having dogs!

I agree, those that have a dog on a whim and change them in the same way as they would a car shouldn't have any animal. However, those that truely love their dogs, and can see a big problem coming and taking the responsible action of finding a new home before the situation is dire and its all very 'last minute' then yes, I think they are being truely responsible and good owners.

> However, those that truely love their dogs, and can see a big problem coming and taking the responsible action of finding a new home before the situation is dire and its all very 'last minute' then yes, I think they are being truely responsible and good owners.

Yes, that is being responsible, but just because some people can see a situation coming and juggle things in order to keep thier dogs, deosn't make them irresponsible and doesn't mean they don't love thier dogs any less than the people who re-home thiers - quite the opposite.

Yes, that is being responsible, but just because some people can see a situation coming and juggle things in order to keep thier dogs, deosn't make them irresponsible and doesn't mean they don't love thier dogs any less than the people who re-home thiers

If you can manage it, without disruption to the children in your family, then yes would fully agree. Of course they are not irresponsible, by keeping the dog, any more than those who think they won't cope are and rehome it. All people are different, stress and strain will take its toll, you do the best you can with the situation presented to you. I just think it is wrong to critise someone for rehoming a dog if they really feel it is the best thing to do. And breeders accept this by wanting the dog back should the owners situation change.