This problem has only begun very very recently. My dogs sleep with us. My cairn always lies on my husbands pillow and my husband moves him when he gets into bed. Toby always growls, not agressive it is more of a grumble (something he always does when having to do something he doesnt want to!!! and he makes the same noise when he is playing) A couple of times though my yorkie has reacted and the two of them have stood on the bed confronting each other. Last night my husband pulled my cairn back out of the way (just to shut him up really) and all hell broke loose. I removed one of them from the room for a while until all was settled and then let him back in. He settled in his normal position and they were fine. I'm worried that my reaction may make things worse, but I'm not sure how to react, whether to seperate them, remove one of them from the room and if so which one. At all other times they get on fine, although my yorkie is definitely submissive to my cairn. It is difficult to know if I have managed to get what happened described accurately but I hope it makes enough sense for someone to advise.
jane

From what you say Jane it sounds like they are claiming the bed as their own. It is not their's, nothing is. Its yours. And growling is not permitted either, although it seems to have been excused in the past.

I would buy them 2 comfy night time beds and let them sleep out of your bedroom to restore or give them a status quo. And don't accept growling from the cairn as the norm. In anything other than play, he is warning you. Treat them both the same and have them out of your room in equal beds.

IMO You are right to seek help as this will escalate as it already is.

I don't know how others feel but thats what I would do. Are the problems confined to just night time? Or are there other daytime ones.

Thank you for your reply. The incidents are only at bed time and have only happened a couple of times and only in the last couple of weeks, yet they have always slept with us. It makes me wonder what is happening differently to have started this behaviour and I really cant think of anything off hand.
As for Toby growling we say "no" quite firmly and still make him do whatever we want him to do, although to be honest I don't think he is actually growling, he is very vocal anyway and I am always saying I wish he knew how to play quietly!!!
jane

How old are they Jane? Sorry, should aslo ask if they are castrated, same sex and have you had them both from pups?

If he is growling, he is saying he doesn't like it, so by continuing to move him, I would say you are probably risking a bite. That's not to say you shouldn't move him, but find an alternative way. So, maybe try luring him off with a treat. Or attach ahouseline to him near bed time, so you can get him off the bed using that if you need to. Surely we're constantly saying to our children, don't wake the dog up when he's 'asleep' so why shoudl we be any different and expect a good reaction?

I agree about the dogs having seperate beds though, so they have a clear outline of what is and isn't theirs. I think the situation you have is maybe a bit confusing for them. Maybe they could sleep on the floor next to your bed?

My cairn is 4 and my yorkie is 2 and half  and they are both castrated and I have had them both since they were pups. My yorkie was  5 months old when I got him. My cairn as I said is very vocal and is just grumbling he does the same when playing he has never shown his teeth or made any attempt to bite us. Up until this last 2 weeks and these couple of incidents I have had no problems and at all other times they are fine. Playing together and lying together. It is as we get into bed and they were just squaring up to each other but the minute my husband touched my cairn they started fighting. It was only half hearted as we were able to separate them easily but lots of noise from them. I wondered why after all this time there is a problem and I am worried that I am doing something to aggravate it and I want make sure that I handle it correctly.
jane

This is going to be very confusing but our pup 'grumbles'. He does it when we pick him up, kiss him, when he's playing, when he is trying to get our attention, when he wants to go out, when he waits at the bottom of the stairs for us, when I get him out of bed in the morning - hes a lazy tyke and wants to sleep in :) OH and I both think it is his way of talking to us, its not growling but more 'bubbly' than that and is just one more of his snorty, snuffly quirks. We know its not an aggression thing - unlike yours cos a fight can and will  start if you leave it. BTW ours sleeps on our bed too :)

Thanks for you reply. Can I just say that my cairn is not growling at my yorkie but as killickchick's pup he is making those "bubbly noises" in response to us moving him. My yorkie re acted (I think, but am not sure) to my cairn making the noise and became confrontational. I am only guessing that it was the noise that made my yorkie re act as other than us all getting into bed nothing else happened. My yorkie then maintains eye contact with my cairn which seems to provoke him into standing up to him.
jane

They are both reaching maturity and both claiming the bed. Going back to my original suggestions I would not hesitate to implement that. 2 nice comfy beds outside your bedroom, and YOU reclaim the bed and nip this in the bud. The fact it has happened twice in 2 weeks means it IS becoming a problem and you can instantly diffuse it. It is your decision of course, but if you hesitate it will certainly escalate further.

Calm will follow.

Thank you for your reply. I had thought that them both sleeping outside the bedroom may be the answer but as they have never slept anywhere at night other than with us I didn't want to do this until sure. Thank you for the advice.
jane

dogs do communicate with each other and they can tell if the other dog is being dominant i think your cain is showing dominance over your bed and your yorkie is reacting to this you must put your dogs in their own beds not in yours it is the one place that my dogs will not come in between my husband an i. don't get me wrong they do come up for a cuddle sometimes but they do not sleep there, they have their own beds an thats were they should stay, if you continue to let them into your bed to sleep you will have more fights and they will get worse,

you have two males both trying to claim your bed as their own this is just the start they could go on to become dominant over your affection and the attention of your husband don't be fooled by their size this is just as dangerous as my large breeds showing this behavior, would you allow my rottie to growl at your husband when he tried to move him off his pillow would this be exceptable i know it would not be to me.

my rottie is a very gobby player it sound really bad but she would never make this noise to any member of my family and if she did i would correct immediately.

You are being kind by doing this Jane, not cruel, and at the moment I woulod not allow even a cuddle on the bed until you have restored whats what.Have some fun with it, and go and get them 2 super luxury beds. My dogs sleep on huge human quilts covered in soft blankets outside my bedroom door.

let us know how you get on

I have been thinking about this all morning and I think there have been some signs that I have missed. Toby has only recently started to lie on my husbands pillow, maybe I should have stopped this straight away but he looked so cute but if only I had recognised it I could have stopped any escalation. Anyway, they already have huge baskets that they sleep in when we are not at home so  I am going to be brave and they will be sleeping there tonight. Thank you for your advice.
jane

Hate to disagree .. but..

I doubt its got anything to do wtih anyone 'claiming' the bed.

Your cairn grumbles.. does your yorkie perhaps feel more secure on the bed? Maybe he thinks the cairn is threatening HIM and when on the bed feels more secure so says 'oi mate.... no!' and has a go back where he wouldnt normally?

(He could also feel more confident in the dark).

If the dogs were claiming your bed as theirs, well one theyd want to stop you getting in it and grumbling in a play manner at being asked to move is not that at all, and two ... why? Your bed is a valuable and nice spot to sleep because it is YOUR bed and YOU sleep there.

If you slept on the sofa, they'd want to sleep there, they have no concept that 'human bed = i am the boss' at all, its only great because its where you are.

By all means have them sleep in baskets on the floor if you want to, that would solve the problem, but I very much doubt it has anything to do with claiming anything.

Yes you are right if I slept on the sofa they would sleep there with me. It doesn't happen every night as I said its only happenend twice and I have racked my brains to think if anything different happened on those nights. I feel quite anxious about it as they are fine at all other times and I don't want to handle it wrong and cause even more problems. Thanks for your reply it has given me another angle to consider
jane

Good point.

But the bed is where it starts. So keeping them off the bed is a good start, and to stop the growling will help too. All growling is unacceptable in any form. My Rott is verbal but wouldn't dream of being verbal when I told her to move or stop doing something she was, ever! Can you imagine???

This really nice couple have accepted this as the norm, when its not. And the Yorkie is now maturing and is answering back, as you say, when he feels safe, when it should be the humans saying No! Thats not acceptable behaviour!

Big dogs or little should not growl. They don't call Terriers 'Terrorists' for nothing. They are feisty little beings as we all know. And should be treated as any big dog should, or this will enhance. Don't mean to frighten you at all, just take charge now, and say 'This is where you sleep' and No! Am not accepting this noise, when I say Move...'You Move!!!' You must mean it, with a no nonsense attitude.

No it doesn't happen every night but twice in two weeks and you are now tense. So change it, from tonight. A no nonsense attitude, Good Night and a firm shut door, remembering not allowing him in the bedroom to start with so he is not on the pillow to move. Keep your bedroom door shut and out of bounds, from now on. They will react well to boundaries and respect. Let us know how it goes tonight.

Big dogs or little should not growl

I disagree. As my very forthright friend says, 'How are they supposed to tell you they don't like something? Blink 4 times?'

I agree that thats how they tell us they don't like something. The way my cairn "growls" does not concern me, in fact I think growl is probably the wrong word. Whatever I want him to do I insist he does whether he moans about it or not. My concern is the stand offs between my cairn and my yorkie at bed time and that I handle it correctly without escalating the situation. Thanks to all for their advice it is very much appreciated.
jane

so if i ask my rottie to get off my pillow and my husband asks my bullmastiff to get off and one grumbles/growls then brake into a fight then this would be ok

I DONT THINK SO

wake up and smell the roses

That's not what I am saying at all. I am saying those who understand dogs and don't want to get bitten might look at the bigger picture and wonder why the dog is growling, and find an alternative means of moving the dog to shoving.

And you must have very big pillows! :-)

I think jane has already said that it is not really growling at all and more her dogs moaning/speaking voice, and that she probably used the wrong word to describe it.Pity we can't hear it or see it to help her decide whether it is really aggression or just moaning. Some dogs are vocal, some are not. My old lurcher would purr when being stroked!
My pup uses his 'grumble ' voice even when he is doing something enjoyable. In my breed book it even says 'when he makes a soft growling-like sound while playing, he is not growling, he is doing the doggy laugh.' Sometimes it is so loud that he sounds like he is vibrating especially when sniffing nice smalls!

Whoops I mean nice smells!!!

Can I just clarify that my cairn is not growling at my yorkie. As I said growling is probably the wrong word. I just wanted to give the whole picture and as my cairn is making a noise I thought one option for the trouble might be that my yorkie didn't like the noise he was making. I do not feel at all threatened by my cairn or that he is being aggressive, he makes the same noise when he is excited too. However as the problem is in my bedroom I am not going to tempt fate and I will tonight be leaving them in their baskets. I'm sure they will sleep much better than I will as I love having them with me and I will miss them. My OH is already saying that he doesn't think I will do it :)

Yes, I got later on in the post that the dog wasn't growling as such. thankyou for clarifying. :-)

>As my very forthright friend says, 'How are they supposed to tell you they don't like something? Blink 4 times?<

What is it that a dog doesn't like so much that would make him growl at a decent human owner? The answer should be nothing.

And in Jane's case the trouble flared the second her husband touched the Cairn and that is the second the Cairn makes his 'noise', which he makes when he doesn't like doing something he doesn't want to do, then all hell lets loose, twice in two weeks. And the younger Yorkie is reaching maturity.

Sleep well tonight Jane, knowing you have started to sort it out in a no nonsense manner. Well done for seeking help and although we all differ in our opinions we all want the same for you. Peace on earth!! :-)

>What is it that a dog doesn't like so much that would make him growl at a decent human owner?

Loads of things. A growl tells the considerate owner that something is troubling the dog. It's no different to a person saying "Ow! B***dy h*ll yes!" when the doctor manipulates an injured limb and asks if it hurts. It's the same as a parent yelling "Turn that music down!" to their teenage child. It informs you that the dog is unhappy about something, and it's now the owner's job to find out why. A caring owner doesn't make a dog suffer in silence.

If a dog isn't allowed to growl, how can he ask for help out of a troubling situation?

This going onto to a different topic really but I will reply.

If my dogs hurt their limbs or have a thorn in there, they limp towards me to help them, to take the thorn out. They don't growl, they kiss. If they are sick they snuggle up to me, or lay too quietly on their bed with mournful eyes, they don't growl!! The Vet has put his fingers into my boys cut when cleaning it and he didn't flinch, let alone growl! He trusts. My dogs don't need to growl, I know if they are suffering as they come to me for care and to put it right. If I ever have tripped over them by accident when they are asleep, they look up with soulful eyes and I cuddle them to say Im sorry, they don't growl.

Growling is a warning, they don't need to warn me.They love and trust me, and I do them.

>Growling is a warning, they don't need to warn me.They love and trust me, and I do them.

Remember that your dogs are abnormal, in the nicest possible way. :-) Where I work we rely on the dog telling us where it hurts - it makes everything much easier for all of us, dog included!

Well every dog I have ever owned then in 50 plus years must be abnormal. LOL!!! All the GSDs, Rottweiller, Collies or Retrievers I have ever owned hasn't felt the need to growl at me either.

I must tell my dog friends who have similar 'abnormal' dogs. They will as be as equally surprised that their dogs are 'abnormal' and don't need to growl at them too.

I don't believe I am having this conversation! Good Night now :-)

Update.
Well, we did leave them to sleep in their baskets downstairs where they stay when we go out. We have another yorkie too so all 3 of them slept there. When we first went to bed Jake (the yorkie who has had probs at bed time!) began howling and barking which after a couple of minutes set the other 2 off. It only lasted a few minutes and then all went quiet and we didn't hear anything else from them until OH got up at 5.30am.

I, on the other hand have not slept well at all!!! I have really missed them and I have been worrying that they might feel that I have abandoned them. I can't believe how stressed I have been about leaving them to sleep downstairs. Silly me, they have carried on as usual this morning and here was me thinking they might have missed me just a little!!! :)

Well done Jane, now keep it up and you will find much to our own mortification, that they can manage to sleep well without us!!!! Now you learn to do the same, enjoy the privacy of your own bedroom and the peace that will reign in your house with no fights at bedtime.

Well done indeed.

If your ever tempted to backtrack, remember the distress when they fought and how it affected you and them, and leave them be. x 

As I said (and can I apologise now for any spelling errors.. ive lost me specs and can only wrte this because i can touch type quite well).. I dont think its remotely to do with where they sleep.

I think your yorkie is an insecure anxious nervous sort of dog and when woken suddenly over reacts.

Solving HIS anxiety and confidence issues will prevent further fights when he misunderstands another dogs intentions (as he clearly does when hes half asleep).

Hi theemx thanks for reply. When these incidents have taken place my yorkie wasn't asleep but yes I do think he is an anxious sort of dog and does lack confidence. At other times my yorkie and my cairn get on really well they play together and sleep on the sofa together in the day. I'm not convinced it is the bed that is the problem but something has triggered problems going to bed and as I'm not sure what and I'm conscious that I may do something to make it worse I feel better having them sleep elsewhere.
You say about solving his anxiety and confidence issues and to be honest I have been talking to my OH about this today, but I'm not sure how to go about this, any tips would be great.
jane

I find dogs are anxious and not confident when they are constantly fussed on demand. Don't get me wrong I love to cuddle my dogs alot! But on my terms not on demand. Also if you are anxious they pick up the vibes very quickly. Watch people with their dogs on leads that attack, the owners tense the lead and start saying 'Be good boy' 'Be good boy' etc etc almost automatically and in a tone that to the dogs act like a trigger, way before the other dog is near.

If you are confident in your actions, he will follow your lead.

I think you maybe being hard on yourself and you sound a kind couple indeed but your original email did say it started as soon as your husband touched the Cairn who was on his pillow. Almost like a trigger, the Yorkie reacted, to either the action of your husband or the grumble of the cairn. I am intrigued though about this third dog you mentioned, that hasn't been mentioned before, another Yorkie. Is he yours? Was he visting?

I think tension can be created by not treating all dogs in the house the same, exactly the same (don't get me wrong I'm not implying in any way you don't, but have seen tension created by this action, the dogs were fine until the humans showed preferences causing tension in the pack)   

I would try and relax now and enjoy the peace that you have restored in the house. The more realxed and confident you are, they will follow, remember that at bedtime tonight, and have a great nights sleep tonight. Interesting case and different views are fascinating.

In total disagreement with Golden Lady - if you try and treat all dogs in a multi dog household as equal you can cause some problems, because they are NOT all equal, they are different ages, breeds and temperaments.

I dont think thats really the problem though but do look at where htey all fit in with one another, who is a fair 'boss' and who is not sure of his place etc.

Trying to change the heirarchy between dogs is difficult and potentially can cause more problems (if you get it wrong and try to promote a nervous submissive dog over a confident dominant one for example) - get it RIGHT though and it can well make life a whole lot easier, making it clearer for each dog where they stand.

I find a huge number of problems are caused by people trying to keep all dogs totally equal, or, trying to promote one above the other based on some human concept that dogs dont follow, such as 'she was here first' or 'hes the biggest'.

Preventing any misunderstandings such as being woken by a grumbley dog, is a great start, them each having their own place to sleep should help too.

I cant say what else could be adding to your dogs anxiety but you need to look at his and your life as a whole, rather than one specific incident.

One thing I have found that really can help underconfident dogs is clicker training. There isnt a specific thing you clicker train them to do, its more that the process of learning this way builds confidence. You will know yourself, when you figure out how to do something, an answer to something, how something works, for yourself.. you get a great deal of confidence out of that. Far more so than if someone gives you the answer or does the thing for you.

Think also about your role in your dogs life, and think about the relationships you have had with people who have taught you a lot and built up your confidence. Possibly a parent or grandparent or aunt/uncle or a teacher - that kind of relationship is the one you want with your dog, thats what will foster more confidence and reduce anxiety.

Golden Lady - where DO you get your ideas from? Treat them all exactly equally?

So, I'm to treat my uber sensitive needy male collie x who is 4, EXACTLY the same as my bolshy ratbag of a 10 month old deerhound bitch? And both of them exactly like my 8 year old staffie x boy.. and all three of those like my reactive paranoid bedlington x whippet lad (5), and all four of THEM, just the same as i treat my 13 year old saluki girl...

I cant, theres just no way that would work, or be kind, or effective.

My old saluki girl needs limited exercise, a quiet sensitive tone of voice, gentle pootles round the block and a treat at bedtime.... if i give that to my staffie lad who needs loads of mental challenges during the day, hours of exercise and a firm, assertive tone of voice, he would be horribly unhappy, bored and misbehave.

If i treat her hte same as i treat him she would collapse through over exercise, be terrified of me and be miserable.

There is no way i could treat all five of my dogs identically, each one is a different personality, each one has different needs, desires, ways of learning.

To suggest that one must treat all dogs identically is quite frankly ridiculous... and potentially very dangerous if some one were to take you at your word - if i tried to promote a submissive dog to the same level as a dominant bitch.. i could have serious bloodshed on my hands, that would be stupid meddling in a thing that requires no interferance from me!

You have taken it totally out of context what I was talking about, or I didn't put it correctly, either one or the other.

I am not talking about exercise needs or medical requirements or diet. Of course they all have their own needs, thats common sense.

I am talking about confident leadership, I have a sensitive bitch, (who was a quivering wreck when I got her) I have a younger very confident bitch, a stubborn, confident yet sensitive edlerly male dog. And all the fosters come and go, and I treat them with the same love, and I do not favour one over the other, or try and push who I feel is the 'pack leader' first, because I am, quite frankly.

The sensitive little bitch that was quaking on arrival is still sensitive and always will be is now lovely with her new found confidence, the stubborn sensitive lad, knows he can't be too stubborn with me LOL! and my very confident young bitch knows she can't get over confident with me, neither has tried to.

Works for us!! I can't stand parents that favour one of their kids over the other either, that always leads to resentment too, same theory. You have different ideas that your perogative, but don't knock something that works dammed well for us. I don't favour, I love them all the same.    

I love all mine the same but im not going to give my silly collie the same status as my sensible old bitch, no way. Hes a nutter, it would cause him to be a horrible dog.

I am the leader of my dogs. Im not the 'pack' leader because im not a dog, but im the one who provides the food and the walkies and the games, i have the final say.. i dont dispute that at all.

But they have heirarchy between themselves and it IS important to them. In a situation where my 8 year old staffie is promoted above every other dog in the pack, or even attempted to be equal to everyone else, he is out of his depth, anxious and stressed.. so he is not put in that position.

Perhaps if you have dogs all of the same breed this situation isnt such a problem, but I have seen people attempting to treat dogs all equally, thinking that 'im the boss and they are all equal below me' will work and it has led to serious problems (one case, two staffie bitches.. in attempting to treat the 18 month old the same as the 10 year old, the owner damn near lost both dogs!).

Theres some breeds you might get away with the ideas you have... and theres others you'll end up coming home to a dead dog.

Dogs are certainly much happier and more relaxed in a secure hierarchical situation within their group.

I have Rottweillers and Goldens and it works well for me! When I had someone to stay recently with their Pharoah Hound and she would push mine away, and only cuddle her own and give hers chicken wings in front of mine, I soon put a stop to that.

Classic case of all the dogs getting on famously (I wouldn't expect anything else from mine accepting a new dog in) and some stupid human trying to split the pack.

I said 'You treat the pack the same or you go!' Noone breaks my harmonious lot up. Noone.

I dont understand, if you believe dogs place such emphasis on who is pack leader, why would the group heirarchy after that not matter..

If i bring a newcomer into my group of dogs, they are fed last, petted last and stay at the 'bottom of the heap' until they show themselves worthy of higher status, which in the main part i let teh dogs sort out between themselves.

Funnily enough this is the role that nine times out of ten, any normal well balanced newcomer to the group naturally takes anyway..

Ive discussed this with a few friends of mine (all behaviourists/trainers) and each and every one of them said 'bad idea' or 'no!' to the concept of treating them all equal, giving various examples of how and why it would cause trouble.

If its worked for you, great for you but its certainly not advice id hand round to other people having seen the horrendous problems it can cause.

Hi theemx
After reading your last post it brought a question to my mind.

You say you would always feed and pet the newcomer last. Jake my yorkie was the "newcomer" as I already had the other 2 and I deliberately didn't feed him last. My yorkie bitch is "the boss" if you like, should I acknowledge that and feed her first or should I feed the others first to stop her being elevated.

As for fussing them I try to make sure they are all fussed equally and played with equally and I make sure they all follow the same rules.

Dog behaviour is fascinating and I want to make sure I don't do anything to upset my little lot as apart from our bed time problem they do all live together beautifully.
jane

THEEMAX SAID> I dont understand, if you believe dogs place such emphasis on who is pack leader, why would the group heirarchy after that not matter..<

Mine are very realxed in their roles, we just get on with it and don't have a problem. I am not putting any emphasis on anything, they just respect me and have good house manners. How can I advise anyone to be any different when it has always worked for me. I have had Collie's GSD,s Retrievers all in my home for many years and now Rotts and we have never had a scrap  or a grumble(not yet, never say never..I am far from complacent!) or a hierachy problem. They all get trained, exercised to their different needs, they are all fed together, sleep together, and they all are relaxed together and I am relaxed with them too. Why are you finding such an issue with that? Of course they have different requirements and I enjoy fulfilling that and it is a work in progress as all dogs are, but an enjoyable one with relaxation and peace.

The dogs that come into my home are FAR from well rounded individuals. They are normally traumatised rescues that have had it really tough, and I love watching my lot interact with them, and watch how they deal with the rescues issues. Fascinating stuff.

Is she a good fair boss?

It does entirely depend on each individual dog, some dogs are elevated by the low natural status of their companions to be 'top' dog amongst the group and if they are not naturally that sort of dog, this can cause anxiety problems, stress etc.

That sort of dog, pushed into that position benefits from being treated equally, with clear boundaries, its not a role he wants or enjoys and it makes him an unhappy dog to be in that position.

A real, natural boss dog doesnt force any other dog to comply with him.. they just do! This is the dog who can if he has to, warn another dog with a look rather than a bite, other dogs will usually vacate a comfy spot as he approaches, not wait to be told to move...

If your bitch IS like this, ie a good fair leader who doesnt throw her weight about, then I would treat her as that leader, though I wouldnt particularly make special steps to do so.. I would just give her treats/food first, not tell her off if she tells a lower dog off for some infringement of rules, basically not try and make her be equal with the others, not try to instill 'fairness' on her/them all.

It is a very difficult thing to describe in text though and I have no idea if your bitch is a naturally dog-dominant bitch (though with two males in the house i would suspect she is the rightful boss) or not so you have to be very careful, and not mistake a dog who is throwing her weight around and being a bully because shes anxious for a boss dog, when in fact thats the last sort of dog who should be promoted above others!