due to pick our puppy up on sunday but the breeder has said she is going to the vets at 5.40pm today, she seems tp think that the puppy may have Demodex,
should we still buy or leave altogether, or maybe wait 4 weeks for treatment to be complete, that is if it is that.
Soooooo gutted...

Um I don't think I'd want one with Demodex myself.  This isn't a dog that you were thinking of breeding from in the future is it?

No we werent breeding him, been looking up on the net about it, seems so hit and miss on peoples opinion about it, just waiting for a phone call back from her (very nervously).

All dogs carry this mite but only some develop lesions from it, with pups it is usually on the face and feet as it is caught from the dam when suckling. The only problem is that it usually causes a problem when the dog concerned has a lowered immunity and that is what would worry me.

The breeder is being honest so I think I would wait till the vet has seen it. Is there any chance you could go with her to the vet to see what they have to say, they will usually take a scrape of tissue and check it under the microscope to check what it is. Personally I would rather Demodectic mange than an unknown skin complaint.

However if you have any concerns back out now.

shes at the vets as we speak, just waiting for a ring back, my vet didnt sound reassuring as he says, it can come back at any time, maybe within a few weeks or maybe not, could be expensive if so too.
God i feel sick.

It can reoccur that is true, usually when something happens to stress the dog, like having an operation. The treatment is not that expensive but a pain to administer if it is on the body, feet not a problem but anywhere else a real pain.

Had the phone call, it looks like it is demodex, shes had it with 2 other puppys and is adamant after a couple of treatments it does fully clear up. shes never had a dog where it has reoccurred and sounded very confident that once its cleared up will be fine, she has offered us to leave it, or take him and theyll pay for any treatment or pick him up in a couple of weeks once its clear, i also wonder if bringing him home with in a new enviroment may stress him even more and so make it worse.

As someone else said, all dogs carry demodex mites, but they only cause a problem when a dog's immune system is weak, such as when it's fighting an illness. To have such a young puppy affected suggests that its immune system isn't functioning as well as it should, which is a concern for the future.

That was the point I was trying to make Jeangenie, no real problem with the demodex but why has it occurred?

I would be slightly concerned about insurance as you will have to declare the demodex to the insurers (assuming you are going to insure your dog) so are unlikely to be covered for demodex treatment or anything else arising as a result of it.

I know in my heart whats right, cant believe after all these weeks of waiting its like this, my eyes are sore with crying, how do i tell my daughter too.

That is also the point that I was trying to make, if it already has this problem at this age, is it going to get another other immune illnesses in the future and would you want to take the risk?

I've heard that a mother shouldn't be rebred from if this happens on the internet etc.

I am sorry Bee111, it does happen I have waited 3 years to get the puppy bitch I wanted only to find that she decided when she reached 14 months she would kill all my other dogs and had to be re-homed.

As you were prepared to wait I think you are right to make this decision but think you should try to speak to the breed club secretary and try to find out if the breed is prone to this or any other problems. Some short coated breeds do seem to suffer more from out breaks of Demodex and it could be your choice is one of them and if you want that breed you may have to accept that as well.

I heard that too
shouldnt breed this animal
dont think we can train and show him at a later date
if its hereditary then what else will he get or if its stress then i dont c how a new home will do justice for him
possible insurance problems

the breeder said she would bath him twice in the stuff then go to vets to for another skin scrape to see if its reduced, then repeat aweek later, shes sure its not a problem once its cleared up.

Two things you have said Bee111 cause me concern.

>shes never had a dog where it has reoccurred and sounded very confident that once its cleared up will be fine.

You have to ask why this breeder is STILL breeding from stock that obviously have a problem and that she is aware of it.

>shes sure its not a problem once its cleared up.

How can she be sure? The bottom line is that she can not and neither can the vet. This dog could 'recover' now but is very likely to continue to have problems of one sort or another all its life. If it does continue to have problems, no one can be 'sure' to what extent of those problems will emerge. The original mite problem may be controlled, but the dog will never be cured. Living with a dog that has any kind of immune problem is an on going nightmare because you never know what will trigger a problem or when. The treatment for the original condition now may not be that expensive, but with a weakened immune system those vets bills could spiral out of all control for ongoing treatments and related conditions. As the condition has been reported, it is very unlikely that any insurance company will cover this puppy.  I do feel for you in this situation but I know which way I would be jumping having lived with two dogs, each of which have had immune problems.

Sorry long as abbreviation can cause misunderstanding.

Demodex in it's self is not an illness. All dogs have the demodex canis mite living in the hair follicles and it does no harm and causes no problems except when it starts to reproduce it's self in large numbers when it causes hair loss and lesions on the skin. These lesions do not irritate unless there is a secondary infection and the numbers of mites can be reduced easily by treatment.

It is the reason why the numbers of the mites increase that is the problem. This increase comes about because the dog's immune system does not control the numbers in a satisfactory and normal manner. This reduced immunity may be a fault in the dog's construction and in this case the dog may suffer all his life with recurring attacks of demodectic mange.

In most cases of an outbreak of this type of mange is because the dog has suffered, quite separately from the demodex, some shock or stress that causes their immune system to fail to deal with the increasing numbers of the mite. Stresses such as operations, often neutering, and the most common the stress of being born

In this case it is likely this pup would only have a recurrence of this problem during times of severe stress or in infirm old age, if this is the case breeding from this animal would probable not be any different from breeding from a dog who showed his stress in another way such as chewing feet or developing a rash or hot spot. However if this pup continues to develop an episode of demodectic mange every six months or so then of course it should not be bred from.

It is the reduced immunity that is the problem not the mite. The thing to consider what caused the stress to the immune system, if it was the trauma of birth the outlook is probable fine and there will be on recurrence.

I have owned two dogs who suffered an outbreak of the problem, one, a male castrated at a year suffered the first attack after the castration and continued to have attacks at periods of every few years, most of these disappeared with out any treatment but when he reached old age, 12, he started to get more severe attacks that required strong treatment. The other was a bitch that had the first attack of increased mite activity when she was 13, just on one foot and it cleared with ease.

There is an insurance implication but fortunately the cost of treatment is not expensive in most cases.

I am not encouraging nor discouraging you to take this puppy only you can make this decision, I am only pointing out it may not be the problem you think it may be and if you can talk to one or two others in the breed you may get a wider picture of the occurrence within the breed, only if the breeders are prepared to be honest, of course.

shes been great has the breeder, says there has not been any problems with previous litters from the mum, must be the injections that may have caused it to break out.

It sounds like the breeder has been honest about it which is great BUT...
Having owned one dog with immunity problems I would steer clear of this puppy even if it might not be a problem later, but it might!

Our story(very shortened version)

She was itchy all her puppyhood...Not very itchy but would definately scratch lot more than our other dog.
we tried different foods as we thought she might be allergic to something.
No difference and allergy tests only showed allergy to Fish.
So we were told she just has a dry skin so that might cause her to itch(and new coat coming in etc) Basically we were told not to worry about it.

We had her on breeding terms and she had a litter as we were assured she has not got a problem.

About 6 months later she developed skin problems lost most of her coat on her back and was gnawing her skin and developing scabs and being very itchy indeed! We were in and out of vets but nothing was found. About 4 months later this just cleared we still do not know what it was that caused it or cleared it.
She was still more scratchy than our other dog but seemed ok.
She also had very dirty ears all her life, this did not cause any problems as such as there was no infection but her ears would have to be cleaned much more often than any of our dogs.

Quite a lot of money was spend at Vets, by now we had definately took our vet on a holiday few times :)!

Then when she was 4 years old that is when it really started, the spending I mean!

She developed Anal Furunkolosis (disease linked to immune system)... Loads of vet visits followed and it took a while to find a treatment.

She had this disease for the rest of her life and was on a medication for it which kept it away...
Due the medication every 6 months she would have to go and get her bloods checked even if everything was ok.

Do you want to hear the cost of this...

Luckily my parents could afford it(I could not so would have had to put her to sleep) and were ready to pay for the medication as she lived a happy 6 years and died of old age.

Oh yeah and they stopped counting when the medication bill was nearing £10 000, and this was few years before she died so after all the total cost of her "weak immune system" must have been nearing £20 000+.

er, says there has not been any problems with previous litters from the mum,
She says this, yet seems very confident that it is not a problem, the ones she has had with this before have recovered well......I'm sorry, but what proof of them being well do you have, how closley related to this mum was the mum of the last litter with it, was dad the same sire for both. To say what she does and with the confidence she does means she is either very experienced with this condition, meaning more than a couple of puppies, or is good at talking/selling. How many litters has this bitch had? How old is she?

I would walk away from this puppy, and have any deposit returned as well because the puppy is not healthy. Why not buy yourself a puppy that is healthy from the word go? You never know whats in the lines or around the corner, but starting off with a healthy puppy is (to me) a far better option. The stress of having a puppy that has the potential to become quite ill at any stage of its life, to the point where you may have no option to pts, wouldn't that be worse for you and your family than telling them the puppy is poorly now, and you are going elsewhere. They will be disapointed, upset even, as will you, but better this way than after you have bonded and lived together.

If you can't face this, then I would want my own vet to actually see this puppy now, whilst the problem is showing, and let your vet (not the breeder) advise you on the decision. After all, your vet will be providing the care and can tell you costs etc. and will advise on the condition presented and all its implications. Then take the puppy back go home and have time to think about it. Don't make a hasty decision.

Hi, what breed of dog is it?  I ask because I understand that it is very common in bulldog puppies and always clears up with treatment.

If it's common in Bulldog pups then people in that breed are using bitches that they already know has had the problem.  I know quite a few Bulldog people and theirs don't have it.

Pug

I have now declined the pup and await a refund, gutted.

Thanks to all.

probably the best decision, though i can't imaging how disappointed you must be. massive {{{hug}}}

Oh bee, so sorry for you :(
Remember speaking to you when you were first looking. hugs to you, too.

Have to say, our boy has had an undetermined skin condition which has so far cost about £200 since Jan. His fur looks good at the moment, but we can still see strange markings on his skin in certain light and we still have to bathe him weekly- when it will totally go is anybodies guess!

our old mastiff had an undiagnosed skin issue to, it drove the poor boy mad and nothing we could do would alleviate it totally, inc. several extremely expensive trips to a specialist.

its distressing as well as expensive. bee, you'll find the pup for you and it will be healthy and happy and everything you could wish.

Yeah i remember speaking to you hun, even decided on Monty to go with Mitch, just darnt take the risk, Bobbi is so gutted too.
thanks...................

im sure we will hun, will have to do more overtime and another carboot, they r so dear at the mo.

my female staff had a episode of demodex mites, this was diagnosed after a skin scrape, she was treated with ADVOCATE neck drops and within 6/8 weeks it completley disapeared, we continue with the drops every month which cost about £8. toucj wood not had no outbreak for 2 years and the vet told me that its 99% sure it wont surface again.