> I seriously have a friend like this, who is struggling with no-one to help them, I've even started to buy her a weeks shopping as she was secretly crying as they did not have enough money to even buy tea, coffee fruit by the last week before pay day,  it was only through her child that I even found out. :-(
>

What a very kind friend you are Carrington :-)

I think many peoples expectations are too high.  I have  never ever had much money, coming from a large family with only Dad working, our clothes were often second hand or hand me downs.

Then when I became a single parent again no money, but I always managed to save a few pounds each months, even £20 over time meant I could get essential things in the house done before things fell apart.

Having never had the kind of lifestyle many people see as essential I suppose I am good at managing with what little I have, a skill most people nowadays seem to lack.

I think that colleges really should run practical home finance classes, we used to be taught home Economics,a and a large part of that was Economics at my school (maybe it was because it was a special school for the visually disabled so getting people prepared for a lower standard of living than able bodied people might expect??? who knows), budgeting understanding mortgages credit etc..

Carrington, I find it hard to believe the family you mention can't get any tax credits. Families earning up to £58,000 a year can get them, so unless they are earning over that they will get something?

Also, regarding their debts, the CAB will write to the debtors on behalf of your friends and arrange some sort o fpayment arrangement for them. I know because my Mum had to do something similar when my Stepfather left her in debt. She had a loan with the same company as her mortgagae, and they agreed to stop all loan payments until her mortgage was paid off. My Mum has never had dogs, but she was able to keep her Guinea Pigs, which probably amounted to the cost of one dog. So there are things that can be done if you know how.

I'm not referring to your friends when I say this, but I think part of the problem is that people tend to feel they have certain rights to own things these days. (and I'm not ancient! LOL) Everyone wants the latest car, video game or whatever, and they also do not know how to eat cheaply. We can make chicken last for three meals for a family of five. A roast, maybe a pie or pasta, and then use the carcass with some veggies to make a soup. Or make a bacon joint last 3 meals in a similar way, making the stock into healthy lentil and bacon soup, which is a hearty meal in itself, espeically with some bread, very healthy and costs virtually nothing. I doubt many people do that though.

Thank you, Angels2 :-)

But I know with all my heart she would do the same for me. 

I was in an accident many years ago at Christmas time and ended up in hospital, I had family visit me daily, but this friend even though she didn't live local and had small children herself came without fail too, even on Christmas day she took the time to leave her own family to come see me, I never forget things like that, true friends are always there for each other. :-)

I find it hard to believe the family you mention can't get any tax credits. Families earning up to £58,000 a year can get them, so unless they are earning over that they will get something?


You are most probably right on that then, if it's upto £58,00 they are definitely not on anything like that now, perhaps they do get something, I just hear her saying that no-one can help them and she told me what happend in court, they are paying debtors back at the minimal without interest that they have done, mainly through the courts I think, but they still don't have enough money to go around, they have more than they can ever cope with.  I don't know every part of their details with a fine toothcomb  to be honest I'm usually trying to decipher through her tears, but I know they have been everywhere they can think of.

They will eventually loose their home and to be honest are just waiting for the inevitable to happen.

Sorry if this is an obvious question, I am trying to be as helpful as possible. I know things are hard at the moment witht he housing market, but have they got thie house on the market? Is it something they could do?

I hope thye find a way to sort things out. It's good your friend can talk to you. Lots of peole keep things liek that a asecret and sturggle on alone.

They must feel at the end of their tether I really feel for your friends, to struggle with debt is one thing but to struggle when you have children and to face losing your house must be awful :-(

Tax credits aren't all the government make them out to be, although we wouldn't qualify I rang up to see what you do get and unless you earn under £20k it is less than child benefit!

I think alot of the systems are the wrong way around and the hard working people like your friends are the people that suffer, not the people claiming every benefit under the sun (don't shoot me down I know there are some genuine cases) ;-)

I've gotta be honest if I wasn't so optimistic I'd be sucidial! Only joking but I've learnt over the past few years that no amount of worrying about something I cannot control does any good!  I've been reasonably sensible & as the CC (I won't type it out in full I hate it that much) was approaching I started to save manically so should the worse happen & work really does dry up I can always use them to pay for bills etc, We are in a lucky position that my OH has just inherited a fair amount of money over the past 6 months so that when our fixed rate expires in July we are going to pay a lump sum off the mortgage so we won't feel the increase in rates too much! But we're one of the lucky ones, we have so many cases at work where they are simply in so much debt we have no option but to recommend debt management or in the most severe cases bankruptcy. 

What makes me so angry are people who lets say 2 years ago were in a mess, had lots of secured & unsecured debt & we managed to remortgage to reduce their monthly outgoings to get them back on track but they've come back now & are back in the same situation & have taken on more debt again & we can't help them...some people never learn, makes me so angry!!

Credit is far too easy to get nowadays, as a student with only a part time job I was offered many credit cards with quite big limits, store cards & my bank gave me a shockingly high overdraft limit! No way was I earning anywhere near enough to pay them back! Irresponsible lending is the route of all this debt people have! What kind of country lends to people without financially qualifying them first! You can get a loan of up to £25000 without proving your income!! Amazing!!  We are a nation of pay now & pay as late as possible!! We want it now & don't care how we get it!

Anyway I'm ranting now & getting away from the original post's question!! Sorry!!!

> We can make chicken last for three meals for a family of five. A roast, maybe a pie or pasta, and then use the carcass with some veggies to make a soup. Or make a bacon joint last 3 meals in a similar way, making the stock into healthy lentil and bacon soup, which is a hearty meal in itself, espeically with some bread, very healthy and costs virtually nothing. I doubt many people do that though

changing the subject slightly, I would love to be able to do this but i have never learnt how to cook the basics as everything has been self taught from cookbooks, are there any cookbooks with these sort of hearty meals in?

Partly due to this credit Crunch is a reason I'm taking a year out of uni and living back home.  I'm ment to be on an industrail placement next year and although getting offerd one I turned it down for two reasons, firstly it was donkey work by the sounds of it, with not much marketing experiance except how to send out a catalouge and also because they were offering a  very low salery which would have left me very little after bills, food etc.  On speaking to managers I have done temp work with they are offering me a similar amount of money and more interesting work, although not part of my placement and I will be able to live at home bringing costs right down.  I will only have to pay a small amounth of rent to my parents which will not only help me, but help them aswell.  It's going to be a full house as my boyfriend also lives with them but with the extra income my parents are getting from rent, it does benifit them all.

Dogs have still got plenty of food as it was stocked up on at crufts and that will not change.  They have plenty of bedding (all the have is vet bed we have had for years!) and toys.  We will still do afew shows aswell!

>I would love to be able to do this but i have never learnt how to cook the basics as everything has been self taught from cookbooks, are there any cookbooks with these sort of hearty meals in?

The Pauper's Cookbook is worth having.

but have they got thie house on the market? Is it something they could do

Sounds obvious doesn't it? But impossible once she explained it to me.

They had a massive drop in wages, we should all live within our means, but (not wise but many do) they had credit cards, loans, cars, nice life, and they could afford it, they had the wage to go with it.  When things changed they remortgaged, took out a consolidation loan which the tv, radio and such are always encouraging those in difficulty to do, and was also like a second mortgage, (not up on these things completely) but apparantely it is attached to the mortgage too and comes out of the equity, throughtout the last couple of years of struggling to make ends meet other loans have gone to court to also attache to their mortgage even though there is not enough equity there now to pay them once a house is sold.

So no equity in the house, infact even once sold they would still owe plenty of debt.  Even if they wanted to sell a house with no equity, add it up. Solicitors fee, estate agent charges, the new HIP's, where does that money come from their pot is now dry, so dry she is struggling for food.

If they wished to just hand their home over, and go into rented that is still a deposit, month in advance, plus a month, they just don't have the money, unfortunately, all family and friends have given them money after money, to be honest it was prolonging the problem instead of helping, they should have moved as soon as the income changed.

Even though my husband is really good and I have my own money he has said to me enough is enough, even if they move their debts will follow them and myself and others can not continually support them. Food and offering my annex is as far as I can bend now, without causing friction in my own marriage, which I don't want, I have a happy home life and wish to keep it. :-)

I wish I had the knowledge that I have now, I hope others can be helped in reading this, don't worry about downsizing there are far worse things.

> I think many peoples expectations are too high.  I have  never ever had much money, coming from a large family with only Dad working, our clothes were often second hand or hand me downs.

I have been brough up on the basics too, me & my sister were raised by my disabled dad (who couldn't work due to his disability & on-going opperations). Things like clothes were either hand-me downs from family, from a jumble sale or our Christmas/birthday presents. We only had 1 holiday to Butlins in our childhood and that was beacsue my dad got financial help for it, our school uniforms were bought with uniform grants. Money was very tight, yet we managed to keep 2 dogs & 2 cats.

>Having never had the kind of lifestyle many people see as essential I suppose I am good at managing with what little I have, a skill most people nowadays seem to lack.

My sister can't beleive how I can manage on a tight budget, when she moved out of home she got a good job & her partner was earning well, she quickly got used to a lavish lifestyle and has lost touch with the difference between essential & non-essential. Me & OH are self employed, sometimes money is plentifull, other times it is really tight, when things are tight there are plenty off cut backs that can be made if you really know the difference between 'need' & 'want'. My children now know that crisps, chocolate & processed foods are not a 'need', they are a 'want' and that is just a few things. We rearely go out to the cinema/meals/etc as a family, it is so much money, we'd rather take the kids to the beach for the day (cost of fuel only), or walk them to the local park & take a picnic & football -FREEE.
My 2 dogs cost me £55 per month to feed, if needs be I could cut that down by half, simply by buying in bulk = £27.50 per month, I know there is no way that I could ever be so skint as to not be able to feed them, if I couldn't afford that I would simply feed them on left-overs - when food rationing was about and money was tighter than people nowadays couldn't imagine, people still managed to feed the family mutt.

I must admit that when we moved out here we got swept away with the lifestyle, we had property that we rented out in the Uk and we live rent free in accomodation provided by my husbands employer! When the children came along we cut down on our extravagent lifestyle although by this time we had already spent a small fortune on cars etc. It is easy to get carried away with debt and although we are very fotunate that my husband earns a good wage and could support this lifestyle it was still very irresponsible and I can see how alot of people get carried into debt very easily. When you have children it seems to be even worse, there are all the "organic" foods that you are told are best for them then the clothing and then when they hit their teenage years (or even before nowdays) there are the latest trends to keep up with!
I know that children don't need all of these things but its hard for people to change overnight. I myself admire the parents that teach their children to be individual and not greedy or matierialistic(sp) they are more likely to grow up and not get into debt.
There really is too much access to credit for people and for example my younger brother when he turned 18 went into the bank for an overdraft and cam out with an overdraft and 2 credit cards!!! If that isn't irresponsible lending I don't know what is! (luckily my parents were able to get him to destroy both cards before they were used!)

Thanks for the link Jeangenie it looks really good ;-)

luckily my parents were able to get him to destroy both cards before they were used!)

What good responsible parents. :-) They have potentially saved your brother years of debt. 

luckily my parents were able to get him to destroy both cards before they were used!)

What good responsible parents. :-) They have potentially saved your brother years of debt.

Couldnt agree more!

carrington, they will no doubt have incured many bank charges along the way, I'm posting a link which may be of interest to them. or anyone else really :)

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/bank-charges

Thanks, calmstorm, your right they have paid out so much in bank charges, I'll pass it on, though I spoke to her about this before too, maybe a website will be more convincing. I think she is just so depressed everything goes in one ear and out the other, understandably though.

The only time she has laughed recently was when I mentioned bankruptcy, she cried saying even that costs (can't remember exactly) somewhere between £300-£500, we were laughing that she was too poor to even go bankrupt. Though I did say if they went that way I would pay for that.

As much as I love my animals (and I really do love them!) I would never consider them equal to my children! But then I really don't think I'd ever consider getting rid of my animals for financial reasons either. There is plenty I can cut out/cut down on without compromising my children or my animals.
My OH is self employed and work is slowing down due to the credit crunch. I know we'll be ok though - it just might mean cutting out the treats :-)

That book looks good JG. I have Delia's Frugal Food, which although some of the ingredients aren't so easy to find (old book), the recipes are good basics and easy to adapt. I cook most things from scratch and although it's not very much cheaper, it's definitely healthier and I get better quality food for my money. I'll be investing in that book I think! I'm also just starting a veggie patch which I'm hoping will give us plenty of runner beans soon :-) Yummy!

It's a good book with some great ideas - and it also teaches you how to plan a week's meals so that you can use the leftovers from one meal to make another and don't have to go out shopping midweek. It's come in very handy, and although it's not haute cuisine it's good sustaining food.

> Thanks, calmstorm, your right they have paid out so much in bank charges, I'll pass it on, though I spoke to her about this before too, maybe a website will be more convincing. I think she is just so depressed everything goes in one ear and out the other, understandably though.
>

Although the fsa have put a halt on refunding charges until the outcome of the next meeting if your friend stresses that they are in financial difficulties they have to still deal with her case as per fsa guidelines. If they have paid alot of charges they should get alot back especially with their circumstances :-)

Its the simple meals I prefer, my nan used to make us wonderful food when we were all young. The books I use for the childrens meals use lots and lots of ingredients!

> she told me what happend in court, they are paying debtors back at the minimal without interest that they have done, mainly through the courts I think, but they still don't have enough money to go around,

The Courts would calculate what they could afford to pay so it may be hard but they should have enough to live on as they would use benefit levels to calculate their needs and the money they have over that would go on the debts.

Of course if your used to living at a much higher standard it may be hard to actually get used to budgeting as stringently as you have to when your at that level.  These levels are not meant to be generous, but they are livable, as I managed to do it as do many others.

I think when people go to court over debt they should also be sent on debt management course so that they can learn how to manage their finances better.

Things like changing their lightbulbs or only using oen lamp instead of several spotlights or the main light of an evening.  Reducing the hosurs or thermostat on heating.  Using the phone purely for emergencies.  Getting rid fo cable ro Sky TV, even internet acccess, or reducing to dial-up.

Only buying essentials, like shoes, underwear, and wait for special offers and sales, (most adults wardrobes will lst them years).  Don't buy Newspapers or books (use the Library instead), Wlk everywhere within reasonable distance (45 minutes).

Go to supermarkets at the end of the day to pick up reduced itemns, buy own brands and use the cheap stores liek Lidl for staples like Rice, Pasta etc.  Halve the amount of meat eaten, and make things stretch.

Sell the car and get a cheap to insure runaround.

I have to disagree slightly, I don't think the courts always look at the full picture!
A good friend of ours was ordered to pay child maintenance to his ex wife and although he was always really reasonable she was very very greedy and he and his new wife and child live like paupers while she is living very comfortably so I wouldn't always trust the courts :-(

carrington, she shounds like a friend worth having, your doing very well by her. the family really have my sympathies, my father has taken very unwell the last couple of years and cannot work, and due to a screw up on the part of his consultant his insurance refuse to pay (its a long story). as such they are certainly feeling the pinch as well. it can really come out of the blue and suddenly managable and comfortable is terribly tight. hope your friends get things sorted out a bit.

Ok save money where you can:

For those of you who have a credit card and manage to clear the balance each month it is worth changing over to one that gives cash back, those offering the best deals at the moment are: American Express, Captial One and Barclays.

If you shop at Asda their store card saves you money straight away at Petrol stations, so you get the benefit instantly and at the end of the year they turn your points into vouchers, however if you don't clear the balance each month the interst is Sky high.

Not forgetting the various loyalty cards:
Tesco
Boots
Nectar card
The Co-operative
Homebase

You might feel like your purse is full of cards, but it's not very often that you get something for nothing and if you are going to shop at any of the places that have loyalty cards you might as well reap the benifits on offer.  It might not sound much but it all adds up.

> shop at any of the places that have loyalty cards you might as well reap the benifits on offer.  It might not sound much but it all adds up.

I have now got my sister hooked on this tactic. I've just had my Tesco vouchers from my club card £11.50 :) If I didn't apply for the card I wouldn't have had that money back, it was all shoping I would have got anyway, but now I get vouches back to spend in the shop. If we are a bit tight for money the vouchers go towards food, if we're doing OK it goes on extras, like a DVD, or make up/hair dye :)

Have you had a look at the Clubcard deals, ML? No use if there's nothing that appeals, of course, but they are worth four times the amount on the deals so if there is something there that suits it is far better to use them that way.

M.

For someone who has managed to live, raise a family, keep a number of dogs, breed them and show them and travel to get a stud dog and own it in partnership you have certainly managed to make your benefits stretch for you. As you say, you don't spend it on cigs alcohol or holidays, or have the expensive games for the children. You make cutbacks on where you shop generally and you manage. The money from puppy sales will have helped a bit with the dog expenses. The difference here is that you have not been a high earner, with a OH who is as well, then suddenly fallen on hard times now. For many years your level has always been the same, and you have lived within it. This is the same for those who have been high earners, the cars, homes, lifestyle have been hard earned and enjoyed, and above all afforded at the time Insurances will have been taken out to cover hard times. Mortgage protection only covers for 12 months after you lose your job, (in most cases some may do a little longer) and you will soon find any ins protection for credit cards/loans is canceled if you simply find yourself on hard times due to raising costs of everything and miss a payment or two. You miss some payments and the friendly help they offer.....is not there. They will heap the charges, but not always accept a repayment plan below the min expected and will even raise the APR causing even more problems. For those that had a 100% mort to get on the bottom of the property ladder may now find they have no equatity and selling is not an option to get them out of debt, even if the mort is the only debt. There are so many houses being taken over now, yet the shortfall after sale, plus the expenses have to be paid back regardless of your home being snatched.

There are many cases where people have fallen into the poverty trap by taking bad financial advice in trying to climb out of debt. remortgage, secured loans, unsecured loans, bridging loans, all may seem good at the time and they are certainly thrust at you by the companies about today. I see many companies now offering to buy your home, no HIPS required, at up to 90% of the market value, with the option to rent or buy back. yet these are advised against, and in reality may only offer a much lower sum than 90%. It is a buyers maket thats for sure.

What do you do if you are made redundant, the company you own or you work for goes bankrupt? Whilst you have savings or equetity in your home, you won't be able to get benefit help. So, all the savings go and the house is on the market..but due to the economy at present it fails to sell? The household expensies still have to be met, the council tax, oil that has doubled in price recently and set to go higher, gas and electric raising, water costs raising, vehicle fuel rising, our food costs rising, basic living all costs so much recently compared to last year even.

The Courts would calculate what they could afford to pay so it may be hard but they should have enough to live on as they would use benefit levels to calculate their needs and the money they have over that would go on the debts.
Courts are not as generous as you think, and may even suggest that a dog is an added expense you don't need. if they get a whiff that you breed dogs....they will take this into consideration too, regardless of how much it costs to rear them. All they will see is the say £5,000 puppy money, and things such as health tests and show costs are an unecessary luxuary. The bailiffs may even snatch the dogs.

Its so easy to say people shouldn't be in debt, but it can hit anyone at any time, you never know what the future holds. Mortgage protection has a delay before being paid out, and may only last 12 mths, sickness benefit also and any ins policies have a time delay. You have to have proof for critical illness so have to wait until you have been diagnosed, which can take months. Lots of time yet the bills and living have still to be paid...miss the ins payment and they will cancel the policy very quickly.

Regardless of how they got there, there are and will be a lot of people caught up in the poverty trap, stuck for money to pay for essentials whilst still trying to keep their heads above water and pay what bills they can. Or pay everything but have little or no money for basic living.

>Not forgetting the various loyalty cards:

Oh My boots card saves me soooo much!  I just buy all my haircare, makeup etc from boots (don't go for the expensive stuff so all reasonbly priced) and the points go towards my lunches when I work a full day as work is nextdoor to boots!  This saves so much money out of my allowance and I always have plenty of points as brought alot of xmas pressies on a day they had 500 extra points for every £20 you spend.  Two bottles of aftershave for dad and brother went 1000 extra points! 

Went off topic abit but boots loyalty card is one deff worth getting!

> Have you had a look at the Clubcard deals, ML?

Yes, the days out/theme parks would be of most interest to us, but my OH is booked up with so much work for the next few months (can't turn it away - make hay while the sun shines ;) ) we wouldn't want to go without him, he'll be working 7 days aweek all through the summer now, but he has got 7 days off for us to go to Cornwall :)
Anyway this time round they'd be better spent on food :( - oh the joys of being self employed, sometimes it's great, sometimes it gives me a few grey hairs :(

This is the problem when people are in a situation with things going well and then things change, but is it not the case that saving for a rainy day and not getting into unnecessary debt in the first place has not been encouraged, quite the reverse with credit being offered too easily, and this causes most of this.

I am sure your friends are in a real bind, and I truly hope that they have got all the advice and help that is possible, as sadly so often people are not aware of all that can be done.

I still think very few people who claim money is the reason for giving up the dog (we aren't generally talking breeders here) have given up everything else they could before making that decision.

As you say in some ways it is better to have always had to live at the bottom and be frugal, it's how I was brought up and how it has always been so I don't notice any drastic change in lifestyle.  My only worry is will my endowment pay out as my mortgage is coming to an end in five years time.  I topped it up a few years ago and it had been hovering at a level predicted to pay or have a small shortfall.

> You might feel like your purse is full of cards, but it's not very often that you get something for nothing and if you are going to shop at any of the places that have loyalty cards you might as well reap the benifits on offer.  It might not sound much but it all adds up.

Definately a big fan of loyalty cards and with 2 young children it saved us a fortune in nappies etc at boots, also we joined their parent club so you get vouchers every few months delivered and another point is that if you check your card in their electronic machines (sorry I don't know the name) sometimes there are freebie vouchers you can print out there and then usually for small sized products but they soon add up. On the Tesco front my parents use the vouchers to eat out at some really nice places!

So I would just add also sign up for parent clubs etc ;-)

ITV - End of Cheap Food

Morland Sanders reports on why food bills are going through the roof and looks at what Britons can do about it.

Ed Baines has put together a sample meal plan for the family below.

see website for more info   http://www.itv.com/News/tonight/episodes/EndofCheapFood/default.html

If anybody has a Shell petrol station near them they do a loyalty card where you can either choose shopping vouchers or money off your fuel vouchers. People get quite a lot back so definately worth doing if you buy your fuel there anyway.

I have to say I am loving the money saving tips ;-)

I've been reading this post with interest (excuse the pun, considering the subject):rolleyes:

We run our own Company and at the moment, generally, things are fairly stable but we have recently suffered due to a Company going down on us owing a substantial amount of money plus one of our employees losing us a very lucrative contract :-(

We have been to the brink many times but always manage to get back up and live to fight another day. As far as my dogs are concerned, they are not negotiable. Many years ago, before we had our daughter we had to sell our house because we couldn't afford the mortgage due to redundancy and a relative offered to put us up temporarily - condition being that he wouldn't take our dogs - so we lived in the car for nearly 2 months whilst we got ourselves sorted. So having been there and done that, I can see no reason for anybody to re-home their dogs unless in absolute dire straits i.e. not even a car to live in. There are jobs out there, however menial to keep the wolf from the door.

I subscribe to many money saving sites, one very good one being moneysavingexpert.com run by Martin Lewis. It gives good unbiased information that is very useful. :-) I do sympathise with people that are struggling but it comes down to economising and prioritising where necessary ;-)

I have to ask hairypooch - how did you live in a car with dogs?! The logistics are bafflying me!

These are two of my grown childrens favourite recipes both of which are inexpensive and easy to prepare

Ham soup

1/2 Ham shank
200g red lentils
Large onion diced
Chopped carrots
Dice potatoes

Cook the ham shank in a slow cooker or saucepan) with enough water to cover
Once cooked remove the ham and divide it into two
One half you will save and use in the Ham Jam Bolia recipe
The other half chop into bit size pieces and put back into the slow cooker with existing liquid
Add the lentils, onion, carrots and potatoes and cook slowly, when every thin is cooked and the lentils have caused the liquid to thicken it's ready to serve.

Ham Jam Bolia
½ ham shank chopped into bite size pieces
Diced carrots
Chopped mushrooms
Chopped onion
Chopped red chillies (to taste)
Tin of chopped tomatoes
2 large tins of tomato soup
3 cups of rice
Garlic (to taste)

Add all the ingredients except the rice to a slow cooker or saucepan and cook, once the vegetables are cooked add the rice and turn off the heat and leave until the rice has absorbed nearly all the moisture. It's then ready to serve. 

Cheers!!  I've just ordered it.  £6.42 including delivery, that's not bad!

> Many years ago, before we had our daughter we had to sell our house because we couldn't afford the mortgage due to redundancy and a relative offered to put us up temporarily - condition being that he wouldn't take our dogs - so we lived in the car for nearly 2 months whilst we got ourselves sorted.

But this was before you had your daughter, would you now choose to keep the dogs and make your daughter live in a car or would you take the offer of a home for her?
I am not cricising you at all I think that to bring yourself back from the brink is very admirable but it is very difficult when children are involved.

Quite simply gembo - the relative that initially offered us a temporary abode let us use his facilities where necessary. i.e. to wash, launder clothes, cook where needed and use the telephone to try and secure jobs and accommodation. The dogs and us slept in the car on a nightly basis - this was fairly incomfortable but at least it was dry but very cold because it was in February. The dogs had plenty of walks as when we did out 'brain storming' it was whilst walking miles with the dogs. This all took place in a Ford Focus! We were in a catch 22 situation because we didn't have a fixed address we couldn't claim any benefits but to get somewhere to live we needed an income.

Eventually my OH mangaged to secure a Courier job that gave us the deposit that we needed to get a privatly rented, damp, nasty hovel, we weren't supposed to have pets but managed to stay there for the 6 months tenancy without being caught having them there and then moved onto better things.

So as you can see, the logistics do work albeit not what I would have wished for and hope to god that I never have to go through again. Any more questions - I'll be happy to answer :-)

>but it is very difficult when children are involved<

Yes it is very difficult when children are involved and knowing what I know now, being a lot older and wiser, I hope that I wouldn't be short sighted enough to ever be in that situation again - but unfortunately, you can't predict the future.

> would you now choose to keep the dogs and make your daughter live in a car or would you take the offer of a home for her?<

If I was ever in that situation again then obviously I would make sure that my daughter had a home along with my OH so that she had relative emotional security by having him there, but yes, hand on heart - I can honestly say if my dogs weren't allowed or welcome in the home that was offered when I would have no compunction about sleeping in the car with my current dogs again. - it would be far more comfortable this time as we have upgraded to a huge estate car - mind you, our dogs that we have now are nearly twice the size of the previous ones so I suppose that it is all relative (joke) :-)

I would like to just say that some of what is posted on here is pure BS and obviously most of us are sceptical - I can assure you that the unfortunate situation that I have just described did happen and believe me - we still talk about it to this day. I think that this is a large part of the reason that we still work so hard, normally 7 days a week - because we are adamant that we are never going back there, it scares the hell out me and gave me nightmares for many years afterwards. Until you have been homeless and I appreciate that there are some on here who have been, you don't realise or appreciate how your world and emotional security is completely obliterated. This is why I can now look at both sides of the coin from a neutral POV.

south today news programme had disel at 1.35 and petol at 1.22!!! in Windsor today so all those coming to the Champ show in June had better make sure they have a fill tank before they set off.

I have a five year fixed rate with 3 years left (thank god) but we are entering fewer shows this year as we just cant make the money steach to any more!!
Gas / electric company informed me that they are putting up there prices so i will have to go on u swich again to see if  we can save money there.
No holiday again this year and the house move and new van will just have to wait.

>south today news programme had disel at 1.35 and petol at 1.22!!!

At least we don't live in remote parts of Scotland, where personal transport is vital. In Shetland petrol has topped £1.40 a litre.

> I would like to just say that some of what is posted on here is pure BS and obviously most of us are sceptical - I can assure you that the unfortunate situation that I have just described did happen and believe me - we still talk about it to this day. I think that this is a large part of the reason that we still work so hard, normally 7 days a week - because we are adamant that we are never going back there, it scares the hell out me and gave me nightmares for many years afterwards.

I really admire your honesty and I do believe you, I think that you must have amazing strength and your daughter should feel very proud to have such hard working parents who faced more than most and came through the other side ;-)

> Until you have been homeless and I appreciate that there are some on here who have been, you don't realise or appreciate how your world and emotional security is completely obliterated. This is why I can now look at both sides of the coin from a neutral POV.
>

I agree with you, most people can speculate (me included) as to how they would feel when faced with certain situations but you never really know until you are faced with those situations

>As far as my dogs are concerned, they are not negotiable. Many years ago, before we had our daughter we had to sell our house because we couldn't afford the mortgage due to redundancy and a relative offered to put us up temporarily - condition being that he wouldn't take our dogs - so we lived in the car for nearly 2 months whilst we got ourselves sorted.

Absolutely admirable; Hairypooch, I have nothing but absolute respect for those that face such adversity and hard times and yet find the strength and courage to keep fighting and make it through without giving up.  I take my hat off to you :-)

>and yet find the strength and courage to keep fighting and make it through without giving up.<

Thank you Spender :-) but when you are faced with adversity - IMHO, there is nothing else to do but keep fighting. There are self esteem issues and also pride. Is it for everyone? No - it just depends on how much you believe in yourself and how deep your love is for your dogs - My dogs always have been and always will be my responsibility, the same as my daughter, I bring them into my life so therefore I will ensure that no matter what - they are provided for in every respect - by me - I would never expect nor want anybody else to finance or care for my dependents :-)

Make no mistake, I'm more than aware that we could find ourselves back there tomorrow or at any given time but I will do my damnedest to ensure that none of them suffer.

I just think that sometimes we should all 'step back' and consider/put ourselves in other peoples situations. To quote a friend of mine 'until you've walked a mile in another persons shoes - don't judge or even proclaim to understand'.

> But no-one in the UK in this day and age woudl be reduced to real poverty

Mavis, the lady I work with, told me a very poignant story about real poverty yesterday.

Mavis is 78 - she has lived through both world wars.  After the first world war, when she was a teenager, she knew of a couple who'd moved to england to escape poverty.  Their parents had spent a long, long time trying to get a visa to come over here.  When it finally came through, they moved over and one day the father went shopping.

Apparently, a large crowd of english people gathered round him in the shop, staring and gossiping - he was stood still in front of the bread counter, looking at all the different bread on display, simply crying.

Knowing that people go through poverty so extreme that the sight of a bread counter reduces them to tears shows how little we in this country, at this point in time, really know about it - the majority of us are nowhere near true poverty.  And if we were, there is help available.  We need a little perspective I think.

I say I'm hard up, and to a point I am, but there are corners I could still cut; I am clinging on to my Sky sub for example :-P But if things got desperately tight I would cancel it.  Although I must say, that is my only real luxury aside from bad food - which I am trying to cut out because I cannot afford to keep buying it (because I can easily spend £10 a day on the darn stuff and in reality I can afford little more than £10 a week to eat).