I know that there is a thread covering these questions somewhere but I have searched and trawled and searched and trawled some more and I cannot find it so apologies for asking.

Just general questions really :)

If you work and have a bitch due her pups at what stage do you take time off work and how long do you take/stay off when the pups are born and young?

Thank you.

I would recommend taking at least a week off BEFORE pups are due, incase they come early, but also the bitch should have her food increased and so feeding during the day is important.
And I would strongly suggest taking at LEAST 7 - 8 weeks off work once pups have arrived as they need monitoring and finally weaning at 3 - 4 weeks where they will need feeding, socialisation with humans etc

I was self employed when I had my pups, and chose my own hours. I cut my hours down considerably once my bitch was in whelp, and then stopped work altogether once she had two weeks to go. I took three months off work until the last puppy had left, as we agreed to keep one until 12 weeks old doe to the new owners holiday. luckily I had very understanding clients!

There is no way I could have even considered returning to work within the first thre weeks, as I was still sleeping next to the pups for that time, and was shattered. However, I do feel that the owner should be present pretty much 24/7 until the pups leave, especially with a large litter, to ensure proper hygene standards and socialisation.

leave a litter of 9 pups for an horu to nip to Tesco, and you come back to absolute filth! lol

it really amazes me as to why so many peoples bosses allow them to take time off work to rear a litter of pups

I would say you need to have someone home all the time bar the odd hour from a week before the pups are due until they a re all homed, which of course may take longer than 8 weeks.

A Friend of mine didn't home the last of her pups until 18 weeks, as there were a lot of male pups around at the same time.

Then of course you will need someone to come in at least twice a day to feed and socialise with the pup you have kept.

to hayley123   i work bank work so can work when i like, thats how i took 8 weeks off for my litter, otherwise i wouldnt have done it, not sure about other people?

i only took a week off when they were six and a half weeks, but then my other half works afternoons and evenings, and i work mornings, so there was one of us there all the time. (i also had a webcam so i could watch from my desk at work too!)

when they are still inside mum you have to watch her in case she gives birth, when they are born you have to watch them incase she squashes any, when they are mobile you have to have eyes in ur bum to see what they are up to!!! i couldnt of had my litter if james wasnt working opposite shifts to me

Well I work from home as a part time childminder, (pups due Friday), so apart from school runs of 10 minutes I will be home all the time, nursery staff have been brilliant and are meeting me in the car park to take the children from me so that I can dash straight back.  Mum is covering if I need to sleep or shower or pop to tesco's.  OH works shifts so he is home some of the time too.  I am off all next week anyway, so should be ok on little or no sleep.  We are keeping one ourselves if she has a girl and keeping one back for someone who is on holiday, if she has a black boy, so will have two pups for two extra weeks.  My problem is we have to go to a wedding mid June, we were supposed to be staying over as it is a long way, but are now just going for the day time do and my lovely neighbours are doggy sitting for the day, they can't wait, they have 6 JRT so should know what they are doing. 

AnnieM, just a word of caution re the school runs. Someone I know bred her boxer bitch (albeit rather irresponsibly) but she lost a pup from the bitch crushing/suffocating it while she was still in the house making a cup of coffee. That was as long as she left the pups, who were almost two weeks old, and despite trying to revive the pup upon return, they lost her.

Sorry if I am teaching you to suck eggs, btu I know personally if anythign happened to my pups while I left them, I would never, ever forgive myself, and not everyone might be aware it can happen so quickly.

so are you saying that people shouldnt take their eyes off their pups even for a second? sounds a bit silly to me

When our Josie had pups and my OH was at work, when I did the school run ( which only takes 10 minutes max) I took Josie with me, I didn't want to risk coming back to a squashed pup. :-(

and ive also read lots of posts of people saying that they sleep next to the pups for weeks, this seems a very strange way of rearing a litter of pups IMO, the people who have said they do this obviously dont trust their bitch very

To Hailey 123

Josie was so clumsy, she would totally pancake a puppy, I could hear it squealing, I would wait a few seconds to see if there was any reaction from Josie, but never got one.  So after the first few squashed puppy episodes, I saved them straight away.  She wasn't the best of Mum's and didn't spend every minute in the whelping box, which made it easier for me, but in her case no I wouldn't leave her for a second.
My friend had a litter of dalmatians and her bitch used to tip toe around, never had one squashed puppy.  So maybe it depends on the bitch.

Yes, I did sleep next to my bitch, well actually I didn't sleep because I couldn't.  I would go to bed from 5pm to 1am and then I would take over from my OH who would then go to sleep.  And yes it was because I didn't trust her not to squash them.  I also had to make sure she feed them every 2 to 3 hours as she wouldn't go to them when they cried unless I persuaded her to go in.

What I am saying is that people should be very careful, especially in the first two weeks before the pups eyes are open, they can hear and are slightly more mobile. I was lucky and managed ot get help with the school run for the first two weeks, then felt the pups were old enough and my bitch confident enough to be shut in another room for the 10 minutes it took me to do it. In my opinion, people who know the dangers and are not prepared to work around them, have no business having a litter in the first place. (Please note, this comment is NOT aimed at annieM)

I slept next to my bitch an dher pups for the first three weeks, then moved to the next room for the next two weeks until my bitch chose to stop feeding the pups at night. Although I was intially concerned about my bitch laying on her pups, it veyr quickly became obvious that she wasn't going to. However, if I was asleep and she wanted to get into the whelping box to feed the pups, but they were to spread around, she used to come and nudge me with her head so I would move them and she could go in to feed them. She also woke me one night when one of her pups had escaped from the whelping box. She was a maiden bitch and I feel very pleased she trusted me so much and felt she could rely on me. Just liek women, they don't always know what to do straight away. :-)

its got nothing to do with knowing dangers and not being prepared to work around them, i guess when people become more experienced then they wont feel the need to take such drastic measures, ive also read a post months ago saying something about how long before you can get things back to normal and how long can you go out for when you have a litter of pups etc etc, and some replys made out as if its not safe to go out etc etc, sometimes i cant believe my own eyes at some of the things i read on this site. and i would never shut my bitch out in a different room when she has pups, my bitch would get in a right state

And are you personally very experienced hayley?

I myself am not, but both my mentors are, with over 60 years combined experience of my breed and breeding, and both do not leave their pups at all for the first two weeks.

I think you're in the minority personally.

i wouldnt say that im very experienced but my partner has experience of over 30 yrs, and would tell me to stop being silly if i said that i wouldnt leave them at all for the first two weeks let alone sleep next to them for weeks

It's clear that you think alot of your older partner, and trust what he says. I think that sometimes maybe you forget that he has the experience of just one person, whereas collectively this board has the experience of many.

I don't think it has anything to do with experience of the breeder - it is the bitch after all who is with the pups and may accidently squash them.  I sleep next to my pups for at least the first week and longer if need be.  I wouldn't want it anyother way.  I personally know of many breeders who have been breeding for years (over 30 years) and still sleep downstairs for the first week. At the end of the day it is down to each breeder to do what they believe to be right but I will continue to sleep next to my pups and I don't think I am being remotely "silly" just responsible.

And are you personally very experienced hayley?

I myself am not, but both my mentors are, with over 60 years combined experience of my breed and breeding, and both do not leave their pups at all for the first two weeks.

I think you're in the minority personally.

Don't agree with you there!  Think a lot of it is very much breed related also as to squashing pups etc. 

Can I just say that I too sleep or should I say stay with my bitch for 4 weeks after her pups are born.
This is not because I do trust her as such but.
In my own opinion I feel it is the same situation as it is with new born babies.
You are advised when you have a human baby not to feed them in your bed and full asleep incase you BY ACCIDENT lay on or suthercate (sp) your baby.
And not to leave your baby un attend when leaving the room unless in a safe place i.e. travel cot, pram etc.

I feel this is the same with my bitches babies, although she would never mean to hurt her pups, accidents happen with laying, stepping on, etc so I would rather have a clear mind that I have been there for her and her babies to keep everyone safe then go to my own bed and harm come to them.

it's not silly if you end up losing one. i think the point was not to leave them alone with the mum, generally they are fine for a few mins with each other and a heat pad

hayley - it is not about trusting our bitches (they are their puppies, what is not to trust?) but a case of being THERE if the bitch needs something or anything untowards happens. It must be nice to be so blase about your bitches whelping, but mine look to me for support, encouragement and help if needed.

we had someone awake with our pups all the time for the first two weeks. i personally don;t think this was silly i think it was prudent. granted we have a notoriously clumsy breed with pups but i think i'd feel that way about any litter. the majority of people i know that breed or have bred have done the same and thats the impression i get from most people on the site to. perhaps its overcautious but i would rather have sleepless nights than lose a pup for lack of attention. we lost 2 pups anyway (1 due to vets being idiots and 1 through a congenital issue) and that was bad enough, something we could have prevented would have made it so much worse

When my bitch had her pups I gave up work, but my boss said that I could have paternity leave! so I went back after the pus went to their new homes.  I decided that I didnt want to miss a minute and you know what? it was one of the most wonderful times of my life, I loved every second of it. no regrets at  all.

> but mine look to me for support, encouragement and help if needed.

Couldn't agree more Fillis.  And I'm glad that they trust me so much.

> When my bitch had her pups I gave up work, but my boss said that I could have paternity leave! so I went back after the pus went to their new homes.  I decided that I didnt want to miss a minute and you know what? it was one of the most wonderful times of my life, I loved every second of it. no regrets at  all.

lol see theres the other thing... i don;t think i'd have WANTED to leave the pups for a minute... far to interesting, even when they were not doing anything!

> but mine look to me for support, encouragement and help if needed.
> Couldn't agree more Fillis.  And I'm glad that they trust me so much.

ditto. i had moved out of home for a year at this point and i wasn't sure how comfortable my girl was going to be having me there with mum helping out, i was delighted that she still wanted me there and was happy for me to go near her babies. it's very moving to be so trusted!

>i don;t think i'd have WANTED to leave the pups for a minute... far to interesting, even when they were not doing anything!

Lord yes, they're the best time-wasters in the world! I can watch them sleep for hours!

The flip side of this is a 'working' kennel I know, where the bitches decide where they're going to whelp; food is provided for them and they're allowed to get on with it, on the the 'survival of the fittest' principle. When 8 are born, maybe 4 or 5 will survive. One bitch who decided to whelp under a wheelbarrow in the yard raised 3 from a litter of 10. That's nature for you.

oh i don't like that idea, but i guess its the different situation.

i found myself particularly facinated by the swimming motion, their puppy breath (smell of the gods!), their little floppy power struggles, the ears opening up more each day and i was the first one to see an eye open!! i was so excited!! i had one one my lap (the oldest) and has stroking him and he lifted his we head at me and i thought there was something on him cause i saw this bluey black flash, had a look and he was peering at me! clearly thinking "Wtf???" but hey! it was a moment, mum was dead jealous

I have to say breeders who I know do not stay with the pups 24/7...
Most have been breeding for years and I can honestly say I do not remember anybody telling me of a puppy being squashed to death.
Yes, they stay with the bitch first to see how she copes and when all is fine, they stay in the hearing distance for the first few weeks but not next to the puppy pen all the time.
Most have a setting where the bitch is based in the bedroom/next room and they do sleep at night (the breeders).

Saying that if I ever bred, I'm so paranoid and would not forgive myself if a puppy of my girl died because of me not being there to help so I would probably be glued to the pen!

> Saying that if I ever bred, I'm so paranoid and would not forgive myself if a puppy of my girl died because of me not being there to help so I would probably be glued to the pen!

there in lies the nub of it. i think we all just feel better safe. i do know people who've lost pups that way (as i say, bullies are notoriously clumsy to start with) and i'd rather be knackered and know their secure.

> and ive also read lots of posts of people saying that they sleep next to the pups for weeks, this seems a very strange way of rearing a litter of pups IMO

That is why the book of the bitch states that up to a third of pups in a litter can die before the eyes open, left to their own devises they can get chilled crushed etc.  I think we prefer that we don not have avoidable losses.

Personally I slept with the bitch and pups until the pups left.  Not by the whelping box but in the same room (no options there) and within easy reach of the bitch.  This means that if the bitch needs to go out to toilet in the night she only has to come and nudge me - and this is what happened, why should a newly whelped bitch have to wait until morning to go to the toilet?   If she needs a drink in the night I'm there to refill her water bowl, if she's feeling  a little bemused I'm there to reassure her.

Once the pups are active they need to be kept clean, puppy poo spreads a l-o-n-g way in no time ;)  and it doesn't take a lot of wee to soak newspapers!  Getting them outside helps but variable weather can mean overheated or chilled pups very quickly if no-one is keeping an eye on them. 

Sorry, been trying to get last minute jobs done, catching up on all the washing and ironing or no-one will have any clothes for the next 2 months. lol

Thank you for your concern, you certainly are not teaching me to suck eggs, I am always willing to listen to advice.  Schools are off for a week anyway, then OH is on nights so will stay up with her until I have done the school run.  Hopefully by then I will be able to take her with me in the car for the 5 - 10 minutes I am away at school.  I also have a 19 year old son who has been roped in to help out.  Not that I would trust him to leave him for more than 10 minutes or so.  I have no intention of losing any of the pups by my negligence, I will be sleeping downstairs until I am confident in leaving her to her own devices.  I have a baby monitor set up in the whelping room just in case she decides she is going it alone!!!  She most certainly isn't, she only has to turn around in the box and I am wide awake.

Unlike Hayley123 I have 30 years of experience in breeding dogs but in some ways I see her point.

I think that there is a middle ground when one has the confidence built from experience. I have my bitches with me at all times before they whelp but have a pretty accurate sense of when they will deliver.
I always stay with her during whelping and until all are settled and suckling. I hand feed the bitch a light meal, a drink then leave her alone for a little while to get to know her babies in private.
I keep a baby listener on transmitting full blast so that I can hear her breathing. I then sleep in the same room for the next week but let her have privacy during the day with hourly (or so) visits.
The slightest unusual noise from the baby listener and I'm flying in there and if I have any poor doers I also spend lots of time helping them to thrive.
The pups that I have lost over the years have not come from leaving the room but existing congenital problems.
I am aware that I am very fortunate in having breeds that are natural, doting and extreemly careful mothers but if at all possible I feel that the bitch should have some privacy to rear her little family with unobtrusive monitoring.
I think it would unwise to advise first time breeders that they have to live in the whelping box.Given some choice in the matter, the bitch would probably like some peace. 
IMHO

I agree with you there, tend to stay at their side in the few days before the bitch whelps as found they can become very insecure at this point and need to know someone is there, however, I  sleep in the next room with baby alarm on full blast once the pups arrive, tried sleeping in with the bitch and pups, but found she would want to jump out of the box and get onto the bed with me!!! whereas if in next room, I could hear everything and the bitch would spend all her time in the whelping box with the pups, its about striking a healthy and safe balance IMO.

In Response to tooolz

With my own breed I certainly am within earshot for the whole of the first two weeks, when they are in the bedroom, and like you I have the baby monitor on full blast.

I have usually found the risk of crushing them seems to pass by about 4 - 7 days as mine is a natural breed that isn't too clumsy, though one of my girls with her last litter seemed to expect the 3 week old pups to get out of the way if she was getting comfortable, and the whelps are pretty strong and active by then able to get out from under/behind, but I had to turf the clumsy oaf off them.

I lost a pup to crushing the night after their birth and a long labour, where both bitch and I fell heavily asleep, and my daughter woke me at 5am to say there was a pup missing.  He was flat as a pancake under Mum (so the crush bars didn't help.  she had had a litter of 9 3 years earlier, and had been very careful never stepping or leaning on any.

After that the breeders real work starts the constant bedding and paper/litter changing, feeding socialisation taking outside, bringing inside, over and over etc.

I live on my own.  I have to walk my other dogs too & I've found 'mum' likes some chill-out time from the pups too.  I have never lost a pup to a bitch being clumsy.  I think some bitches just aren't natural mothers and those are probably the ones that need to be watched constantly which then makes me think, are they really needing motherhood thrust upon them?

>are they really needing motherhood thrust upon them?

Probably not a second time - but until they've had a litter you won't know if they're going to be any good at it ... (Which of course is why there are so many books and magazines and websites devoted to human motherhood too - sometimes 'natural' doesn't come naturally!)

and in my Kizi's case first time birth and rearing a litter were a breeze, second time things were drawn out and exhaustion caused her to lay on a pup, but the time she had recharged her batteries she was a great Mum.

A much larger debate I know but.....
We, as dog owners often regard, natural working traits, natural feeding etc as the holy grail and yet childbirth is seen as somehow unnatural and a bitches natural instinct to be alone and private is not encouraged.
I know a healthy balance needs to be struck here, but at a time when human childbirth is 'going back to nature' with early discharges from hospital, home births and breast feeding, aren't we becoming quite the reverse with our dogs?
Do we want to perpetuate a species that can't rear their own young? Could it be that puppies are now so valuable? Don't get me wrong, I make it my primary task not to lose any puppies (despite not being within touching distance 24/7 ) but I don't think that sitting with them day and night works in the long run. As a long term dog breeder I would not want to end up with a kennel of bitches who have lost their natural mothering instincts. I have a friend who has a line of bitches who don't clean their pups ever -she has to do it all!
I'm sure I will be shot down here by many who have breeds that have lost much of this inate behaviour, but who caused this to happen in the first place? There is a difference between helping an exhausted or nervous bitch for the first few days but 8 weeks?
I'll stand back now and wait for the flack.

I can't speak for others, but in my case, being there 24/7 (for the first 2-3 weeks at least) didn't mean I wasn't allowing my bitch to look after her puppies pretty much entirely by herself. The only thing I did in that time was to weigh them each day (admittedly that was for my own benefit) and move them for her to get into the whelping box if she asked me to. She certainly didn't feel inclined to not look after them herself, and in fact continued to clean up after them herself well after weaning was underway.

I know that during whelping she looked to me for support, and at a time when she is likely to get frightened, why wouldn't she? Several times I moved away from her slightly to give her more space, and all of those times she moved so she could be right next to me again.

None of my bitches has needed any help from me looking after her puppies, however two did have their puppies so quickly(2 litters of 7 in 75 minutes-Grand mother & Grand daughter mums & not at the same time several years apart)that I had to keep the already born puppies away from the mum.

I have always had a close bond with all my dogs & stay with them with their puppies because they are like my G children to me. I never get tired of watching puppies & like to handle mine from bitrh so that they are 150% OK with people & being handled.

I suppose I'm lucky in that my breeds are natural whelpers(although GSDs can & do take 1 or 2 days to whelp :-O)& I've never lost a puppy

I will be staying with Jessie 24/7 if she ever has a litter until the puppies are able to be left, not because she wouldn't be able to look after them alone, but because I choose to. Wukee was bred by breeders who do the same & the litter is none the worse for it, in fact they are the most confident litter they have ever bred

> I'll stand back now and wait for the flack

None from me I pretty much agree.  As I have previously posted I very much encourage my girls to concentrate on their pups and my role is of supervisor and provider for the bitch and pups.

I think most posters are stressing to new/novice breeders just how much work a litter of pups is, and that someone needs to be around for the duration, even if that isn't hanging over the whelping box side, but being in earshot or not away for more than a short time when pups mobile, to ensure exercise food, hygiene and socialisation.

As for mothering instincts this is a multi factorial thing.  We humanise our dogs so they are sometimes over reliant on us, and I have seen some very obedient owner fixated bitches that almost need permission from the owner to feed and attend to their pups, they have no confidence to follow their instincts.

Also quite rightly reputable breeders do tend to not rush breeding from their bitches usually waiting until 2 to 3 years of age.  In the past because of risk of disease wiping out your kennel bitches were bred from at their second or third season so possibly not much over a year to 18 months of age.

My most natural mother was one who had her litter at 2 years and 7 weeks.  My most panicky one (the aforementioned ones daughter) was nearly four when she had her first litter and was terrified by the experience and had to be held down until the first  pup was born, as she was running around the bedroom with it half born!  She had shown no signs of early labour, and it was four days before her due date.  This bitch was also a pain to be mated as she was confused about which gender role was hers ;)

Her daughter had her litter very quickly and seemed very shell shocked and again wanted to get away from them, until most had been born when a switch seemed to go off in her head and she was a martyr of a Mum.

I certainly don't think that any bitch showing poor maternal behaviour beyond the first day or so (especially after a C section) should be bred from again.

C sections are another issue.  There are breeds where elective C sections have become the norm.  these breeds existed before the advent of this procedure so were self whelping or died trying.

I think a similar argument can be made for being careful with the use of AI.  This seems to be used almost routinely in the USA, and often the bitches will not allow natural mating and the males lack the urge or stamina to do the job.

These traits are part of the dog and should be selected for in the same way as correct temperament, health and conformation.

> I know that during whelping she looked to me for support, and at a time when she is likely to get frightened, why wouldn't she? Several times I moved away from her slightly to give her more space, and all of those times she moved so she could be right next to me again.

With respect Jackson wasn't this your first litter? How would you know the most successful way to rear dogs in the long term?
Perhaps with time you may see a bigger picture.

Have to say that I'm with Toolz on this one.  Mother nature is a wonderful thing and we should allow dogs to retain and use their instincts.  Obviously none of us here are going to be deliberately neglectful or stand by and do nothing if Mum or one of her pups is in trouble, but a realistic approach needs to be taken.  With the vast over-population of dogs, surely it is nature's way that some pups will not make it.  It's not nice and we will shed tears but sometimes these things are meant to be.

My bitch was what would be termed a Supermum - she did everything herself without any help from us, even though we were hovering about in the wings just in case.  The only help she needed throughout was glucose water during the middle of her labour and being brought extra food for the first week when she didn't want to leave the pups.  She continued to clean them well into weaning and only decided her job was done when they were 5.5 weeks old and she handed over responsibility to our male.

Having read some of the threads on here before she had her litter, I was planning on sleeping with them for the first week but my OH pooh-poohed this and whilst I was not happy with this to start with it turned out he was right.  They were in the room next door and they were absolutely fine.  Plus I had to go back to work part time when the pups were a couple of weeks old but organised my hours so that they were only left for short periods in between myself and my son coming back to check on them and spend time with them.  I know that this won't go down well either but I feel that the litter left for their new homes healthy and well socialised and the progress reports and photos I have had from the new owners back this up.

> With respect Jackson wasn't this your first litter

In hindsight Jackson I feel my comment was a little harsh, I don't mean it to be. I have tried to remember the details of my first litter and I probably sat and stared at them non-stop too, but for my sake and not the bitches. Confidence has given me a sense of when to step in and when to let nature play out in all it's wonder.
Things I held to be the gospel once upon a time - I cringe now at now.
Nearly all the breed books written around the 7o's and 8o's used to stress unobtrusive monitoring, this seems to have gone out the window for many. Was it so wrong?
KforKate
My long established breeder friends and I always call the time just after whelping as 'the boring time' ( relatively speaking of course!) - when the bitch doesn't need us and does everything herself.... we can't wait for the exciting time when we get involved - weaning and socialising.

No problem, it wasn't harsh, it was a fact, it was my first litter.

You're also right in saying that in the future and with more experienec, I might change my mind on how best to do things, but I can't say that for now, as what I did this time appears to have worked out so well for all, I am unlikely to change the way I do things next time.

The reason I felt it best to do things the way I did was it is the way both my mentors do things. I have three children, a husband who works away, plus, having 4 horses at the time of the litter meant considerable expense in paying someone to look after them, so it's not like I had nothing better to do than sit around all day watching them. I wasn't sitting and staring at them non stop. LOL I oversaw everything, not interfered.

It is perfectly possible that I could have allowed my bitch to have her litter outside, in the shed, with no heating and she may have reared all the pups successfully. Some may have died if i had done that, and some may have died if I had done things the way I did. What I do know is, whatever the reason, if any pups had died and I could have possibyl prevented it, I woudl nto forgive myself. I ams ure also that my bitch would have felt a loss if a pup had died, whether it's downt o nature or not.