This morning I received a letter inviting me to judge my breed and some other gundog breeds which I have done before. but also breeds that I have no knowledge or experience or even interest in,also varieties including hounds.Now I readily confess to know absoloutly nothing about Hounds at all ! I hope I can spot a well bred dog but I wouldnt be able to fairly judge that breed. I also hate going to a show where someone in another breed is also judging my breed and is obviously not competent at all and knows nothing about my breed and have accepted a few other breeds to help out or cut down on judges expences.
Needless to say I will decline the offer and hope someone more competent in all breeds will be asked.
Also what is the point of entering a show under a judge who knows nothing about your breed after all its not cheap to show these days,I like the idea of the judges profile which some canine societies do in the shedules you then have a good idea of the person whose judgement you are seeking on your dog.
What do others think?

It never occured to me that someone without knowledge of the individual breed would be asked to judge it so I was really surprised to see that you've been invited to judge hounds.

I for one wouldn't knowingly enter my well bred, well presented dog under a judge who didn't know anything about my breed - I'd rather be judges by my peers and the peers of my breeder.

Fiona
x x x

Don't you enter exemption shows then Fiona?

No I don't. I don't actually show Holly at all anymore as she gets travel sick and cleaning up sick spaniel isn't much fun before a class. She gets very withdrawn when she's been sick so she doesn't really enjoy showing.

I wouldn't expect to be under a breed judge in an exemption show but it never occured to me that any judge I entered under at a show that provided breed classes wouldn't be a breed judge. Especially in a high number breed such as Cocker Spaniels.

It's just goes to show that showing is a lot more complicated than I first thought!!

Fiona
x x x

More and more in Exemption shows you are getting breed judges doing the fun classes. I find it very sad sometimes when you see a family on a day out and one of the kids enters the family pet in the dog show just for fun. The prizes invaribly go to the person who is showing their dog properly, rather then the event being taken as what it is, just a fun thing.
Yes I beleive the pedigree classes should be taken seriously but when it comes to things like 6 best leg/most like owner etc, surely these should be left to the pet dogs. Ingrid

It's quite common for Cocker classes at Open shows to be judged by non breed-specialists. If you are lucky, then at least you will recognise the name of the person & know they have experience in other Gundog breeds but quite often, it's someone whose name you have never come across before & you look at the schedule & see this person is down to do a number of breeds & have just had the Cocker classes tagged on. This is done supposedly to save money on judges' lunches & the like (why appoint several judges when you can give loads of breeds to one judge & only have to pay for one lunch :D) but to me it's a false economy as no serious exhibitor is going to turn out for a judge they have never heard of. I have also been offered classes in breeds I have no experience of & have turned these appointments down, however there are plenty of ambitious folk out there only too keen to accept anything that's offered :-)

Jane

I would write back to the society mattie and tell them which breeds you feel competent to judge, and which not. They may well still want you for the former, and try someone else for the latter.

I think it naughty of societies to tempt people with an invitation like this, as I know full well that some people would take the appointment regardless.

I have been asked to judge at Exemption shows, but have refused. I know that most of the judges will only know one or two breeds well, but I would feel a fraud trying to judge the finer points of breeds other than my own, though would hope I could judge if a dog is sound and fit! So am shortly doing novelties at an exemption show!

At Exemption and Open shows we are seldom judged by our own breed specialists, but used to happily show under Terrier, Gundog or Hound judges as I reckoned that they should know good construction and movement even if they were not that "up" on breed type. Shows down my way are so sparse that I couldn't be too fussy or I would've never show at all! I have been asked to judge the odd exemption show - but they are the worst - so many new and rare breeds, let alone all the "normal" ones. I wouldn't dare - especially locally!!

Hi WL Im not saying that we should all just be breed specialist for our own breed, not at all there are lots of very good judges around covering lots of breeds but generally a society will ask you which breeds you have judged or are prepared to judge and then you can say well Ive done this and that and feel confident on that but to add breeds on and not question if you are capable is a bit naughty,as has been already said there are some who are that desperate to judge they will accept and then if they dont know what they are doing it the exhibitor that loses out.

Go with what Brainless says:) I fully agree so there's no point in me repeating it:)

Stacey x x x

Hi Mattie, yes I agree with you, I just thought I'd say that it happens a lot, in my area. Perhaps these days we pay the price for specialising (mostly) in one breed. Years ago when many old school breeders used to own several breeds, they were the true all rounders capable of juding most breeds well - especially the sporting ones anyway. With all the new rules and regs for becoming a judge true allrounders will become far and few between, which is a shame.

Well.I judged a Club Match the other day - fairly low key stuff, I hear you say - they kindly sent out a list of the breeds likely to be there, and it included bulldogs.

Well, Jo dutifully does homework on breed standards, and by golly, you have to be an advanced mathematician to understand the bulldog standard!!! I was petrified I was going to have a hallfull of them! Luckily (for me) none turned up - did I breathe a sigh of relief!!!

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

Dear Jo,
Wish there were more judges out there that were like you :)
I know when entering the AV classes at open shows it's a bit of
a lottery but you would hope that the judge would have at least some
idea of the breeds that may come under them in the AV's.
I had one naff experience at a show with my Boxer in the AV working
puppy class. The judge asked to see her top teeth as she couldn't see them. I duly opened her mouth in a way to expose the top set (thinking I've never had this in the 13 years of exhibiting) well not surprisingly we were placed 5th in the class behind dogs that had scissor bites.......I guess she thought that all dogs should have scissor bites :( Shame that she didn't realise that Boxers are supposed to have undershot mouths and you won't see the top set of teeth, in the way you can with a scissor bite. Still you live and learn.
Suffice to say she is on my no-no list :)
Kind Regards
Kirstine

well done mattie,shame there are not more like you out there that are honest when you admit that you do not know some of the finer points in certain breeds, i think to many judges will grab the chance to judge breeds that they know little about,and people wonder why there are poor enteries.to many judges doing each other favours i scratch your back you scratch mine, a good judge,judges to type not a big one here alittle one there and who happens to be on the end of the lead,not agood advert for new comers is it, especialy when you travel along way, get to a show and are told you might as well pack up and go now because they know who is going to get best of breed and best in show,regards tina, be known for being honest mattie

Well I think an open show is a learning ground for judges and stewards.
I am sorry to disagree but , how can anyone progress to all rounder if they dont give it a good go.
When I am judging a new breed I study that breed intensely for months . I apply the usual sound moving good structure when going over them and when making my decision I then apply the finer points I read up on.
I think you should go for it Mattie , I have every confidence a woman that has bred good dogs like you have done, will know a good un when she sees it.
Let me tell a little story about the first hounds I ever judged .Alittle knowledge is a dangerous thing. it was at the bichon club limit show 15 yrs ago
Iwas doing pastoral and toys . and hounds.
So I started reading up on the hounds and read the tail of the wolf hound must go around the leg twice I think
. Now I admit at the time I did not know much about hounds .
So trying to impress I wrapped the tail around the leg of the wolfhound being held by a very young and interested girl
I moved on to next hound looking back I saw she was wrapping the tail around as well . so pleased with my self I thought she is checking it herself .
So when I was placing I said to her I see you knew about the tail . Oh I dident she said , Is that why I am not first cos the tail did not hide his ba!!!
The story is still going round if any one of you hear it I was that judge, :(

Thanks for the good reply Mari but can I say I dont want to progress to be an allrounder, :) :) I'm quite happy to just judge the breeds im interested in,and now I have Little Ned its taking all my time learning up on his breed so that I can best give him a life to suit him, plus sticking ducktape on my settee he has chewed up :( :(
My original gripe really was that it was assumed I would do the breeds without any prior enquiry of wether I was capable.
Best Wishes
PS. Like the tail story :) :) very good ;)

Mari, agree in general, but the usual way to check IW/deerhound tails is to bring it round under one leg to the spine. If it reaches the backbone or is even longer, its OK. Maybe thats what you meant, but I have this lovely mental picture of you tying a wolfies back legs together with its tail :-)

:D I told you I was trying to impress as To my knowledge which was none at all . at the time. Mari :(

I began judging in 1987, starting with just three classes of Cavaliers (my own breed) and did not take on other breeds (even in the Toy group) until I felt confident that I could give an honest opinion of the dogs in respect to the breed standards.

I later undertook a General Certificate of Canine Studies and passed with a credit. This gave me a wonderful grounding in the ways of dogs and dog shows and also required a special study of a Canine subject. I followed this course with The Judging Diploma and only after passing that did I consider that I MIGHT just have enough knowledge to move outside my own group. I still only take on those breeds which I feel I have studied enough and absorb any knowledge that I am able through attending breed seminars and courses relating to other breeds. I went to a wonderful eveing about Boxers two weeks ago, the speaker was Maurice Webb and his knowledge of the breed was tremendous and I now feel that I can look at a Boxer quite differently, even though I have in the past judged them as part of variety classes and also a Boxer Christmas Match Night.

I have completed the various studies and seminars requested by the Kennel Club, have contributed to all things canine by working on committees, I run a training class and have done for the last ten years. I was breed feature writer for PetDogs magazine for almost twelve years. It would seem that you have to be able to show at all the Championship Shows and win of course - I can't due to work commitments and lack of space to produce endless litters, therefore I am unable to obtain that elusive stud book number. I have to admit to feeling quite sad that I see people coming from nowhere to judge my own breed and others at CC level when all they have done is manage to have the luck to own a good dog and to recognise a good dog but not to have an in depth knowledge of that dog's make up. I know of so many who judge but do not know the first thing about true conformation or anatomy. Does this mean that if one obtains the best, one is able to be the best? - I think not, otherwise we should have endless stream of top level football players and snooker players ete etc........

My son entered his teckle in the game fair teckle show but the judge and a competitor got in a muddle and a bitch won the dogs class !!
whoops! good job nobody was too serious about it.
Ted

whats teckle TED ???

Hi Matty, it`s a Dacshund
Christine2

its a WORKING WIREHAIRED dachshund.....seems rather strange choice given the owner?

Does the name 'teckel' not apply to smooth working dachshunds too Sam? When in Italy, I was offered a very nice teckel bitch and it was smooth coated?

Hi, in Spain all the dachs come under teckel & then whatever type it may be.
Christine2

its possible leigh, although round here all the working ones have a wire coat.

What makes me laugh is although I brought the SWD's into the country I wdn't be able to judge them at anything higher than open shows, that'swhen we have breed classes and of course although I've had them for 10 years I wdn't be able to judge them in Europe.

Perhaps is breeders put some information about how to judge their respective breeds it would benefit all of us. We can all read the breed standards but actually going over a dog is a different matter. I do a lot of stewarding which helps, but who knows which breeds need to be weighed or measured ?

There are a good few breeder who have know idea about how the breed standard should be interpretation, that is clear if you look at the pups they produce. The only way is to attend lots of shows and breed club seminars, put your hands on lots of dogs/hounds and do not judge until you are sure you know the breed well enough to make your own mind up as to which exhibit best fulfils the standard.

I have a breed where we are more often than not, at open shows, given a judge who we don't know or who maybe has another HPR breed, so the given society/judge thinks they feel qualified to judge all HPR breeds. Every breed has it's finer points. In my own breed, for example, the standard says "Chest wide & with good depth of brisket", this is such a commonly overlooked point. So many gundog judges are so used to looking at retriever/setter fronts, that to them a wide chest is seen as a fault! Likewise, they tend to think a Munster should be dripping in coat, all it specifies about the coat is that there is feathering on the tail, ear tips, back & front legs.

In Irish Red & White setters, the standard allows for "free moving elbows", how many judges would probably be horrified to see this & probably throw a dog with such?

Good for you Glenys for not taking on something you feel you don't know enough about, but I bet you'll they'll find somebody in a flash who will though! Someone desperately trying to move up the "face's ladder".

Christine