There is assertive and there is bullying.  

To me he is both and I don't think you need to be either of those things to have a happy well trained dog, infact I think both being assertive and bullying go against having a content dog.  I think it is important to be consistent, gentle and to develop a bond with your dog, to understand what makes them tick and to get them to want to work for you and make it rewarding to do as you need or want.  I grew up with the you need to be the boss of the dog, yank and crank attitude, although not something I ever used as I never felt comfortable with it, but I did see lots of dogs brought up this way, I see a huge difference between dogs taught with reward based methods and methods that invlove punishment. 

I've worked with lots of dogs of different breeds with different problems (some serious) through fostering and with work and have got consistent results from using motivational reward based training methods.  I'm not a natural trainer, I've worked really hard to become a good trainer for the dogs I work with though, so I think anyone can do it if they want to.  People often say to me that I'm lucky that I've got dogs that want to please me and want to be with me, which is an absolute load of rubbish, there was no luck involved but lots of hard work. They don't want to please me, they want to please themselves and I make sure working for me is rewarding to them. You can get better results by using kind methods that don't involve, prong and electric collars, jabbing with your fingers and kicking with your foot, intimidating body language, throwing dogs off sofas etc etc.

I find it very distressing to see dogs in 99% of his episodes very stressed by his methods.  I used to watch the program so that I could was aware of specifics when people spoke to me aout him, I also feel you can learn a lot from how not to do things but I no longer watch him after the episode Moonmaiden mentioned when he put a little dog in with his pack where is got pushed and prodded and forced to walk.  The little dog was terrified and it was later discovered after being subjected to that abuse that it had neurological problems and was PTS.

I'm sorry but he is at least in part responsible for the general public trying his methods out, he is on tv advocating these methods and of course people who are at their wits end or just want a quick fix because they can't be bothered to put the work in are going to try them out.  The warnings about consulting a professional were not there in many of his programs and I suspect were put in at a later date to protect himself legally.

He is not these dogs last hope, he may be the last hope of misguided owners but certainly not the dogs.

>I'm sorry but he is at least in part responsible for the general public trying his methods out,

A few weeks ago I had to hold a dog while it was put to sleep after it had bitten its owners after their emulation of CM's methods. he's a health risk.

> People often say to me that I'm lucky that I've got dogs that want to please me and want to be with me, which is an absolute load of rubbish, there was no luck involved but lots of hard work. They don't want to please me, they want to please themselves and I make sure working for me is rewarding to them.

Good for you :) but I think you sell yourself short, when you have worked hard in finding all the right buttons to press to make a dog responsive to you, you in turn gain it's respect so it does want to please you (IMO) :)

My pup visibly swells with pride when he does something I ask or he learns a new trick and gets praise, he really does love to please me, even when it doesn't earn him a biscuit ;)

My pup visibly swells with pride when he does something I ask or he learns a new trick and gets praise, he really does love to please me, even when it doesn't earn him a biscuit 

I think every dogs has something that is reinforcing for them and that they will work for and that varies from dog to dog.  Some will do a back flip for a fuss and a 'good dog' others it's food, a ball, to go and sniff something or chase something but they are all things the dog wants,  So IMO for your pup I would say he is working for your attention not to please you :-) My praise has become a secondary reinforcer to my girls, so will do for well established behaviours, but for my sight hound who is very prey driven, there is not a chance in hell I could have taught her a chase recall from birds or bunnies with praise alone.  But using other high value things that she wants she has learnt a great chase recall, but the motivation for her recalling was the thing she could get out of it not to please me.  I think that dogs that are happy to work for praise alone often look like they are doing it to please but really they are doing it because the praise, physical or verbal is what they want out of it.  Just my opinion :-)

Sorry you had to go through that Jeangenie, that must have been awful for you.

Daddy belonged to a rapper called Redman...

A few weeks ago I had to hold a dog while it was put to sleep after it had bitten its owners after their emulation of CM's methods. he's a health risk.
that is so sad. Very very very sad indeed. I worry when I see some of the stuff on training dogs on TV. The other week I saw a gut with a very young pup in the park using  CM's methods and the poor dog, and at the same time a dog owned by someone else came running up to my dogs jumping on them and askimg them to play and the lady was so appologetic. And I told her I would rather see dogs doing what hers did than see what that man is doing to his pup.

It all depends if yo want to take from your dog of let the dog give to you. I thought a dog whisperer was someone who understuud dogs and patiemtly waited for them to come round and to comunicate and to harness the natural abilities and drives of the dog so that the dog wanted to be with you and work for you.  Not someone who demanded by force - do it or else!  If an owner is a child or soemone who does not have a bullying and dominant personality they can't train through dominance but need to use the natural abilities they do have. People who are very assertive naturally, their dogs tend to be naturally quite obedient anyway from what I see without needing to do much training. Training seems to be about getting the right method for the right person and for the right dog.

Like jan Fennell he is great at marketing himself; also his methods appeal more to some sections of the dog owning community than others.

As is usual, there is nothing "new" in his approach but he has great PR!

I like to watch him as he's lovely to look at and listen to. Once you've watched a couple of episodes though you dont need to keep watching as its the same methods each time.

What i will say though is some of his ways are good - getting people to exercise their dogs for one, a lack of brain stimulation and lack of energy burning in dogs makes them bored and will cause them to be naughty and destructive.
I have a dog that was terrible on a lead - lunging at people, barking, chasing (attempting) cars and bikes etc - I used his method of being calmer myself and not getting worked up as soon as i saw a potential trigger. Kept my head up and walked purposefully onwards, if she made any attempt to lunge forwards or fixate then i would correct her by a light tug on her lead to keep her walking. It has worked, our walks are much better and i feel more confident with her when out.

I think some of the dogs you see on his shows do have problems that have been on going for sometime and need to be shown that cannot contiune to rule as they do, we all repremand our children and let them know that we are in charge as their carer, Our children have to accept that if we say 'no' then we mean no. How many of us have grabbed our child by the arm/hand and given them a firm talking to for miss behaving??? i know i have  and this is what he does to dogs. The owners are pleased with what they see him do and are made to understand that the dog is probably like it in the first place because of them!

Unfortunately there are far too many people who confuse "positive" with "permissive" until people understand that force is unecessary and/or some people do actually get some sort of personal pleasure from "punishment" it is our dogs that will be at risk.

In Response to karenclynes

>There is assertive and there is bullying. 
> To me he is both and I don't think you need to be either of those things to have a happy well trained dog

This is a defintion of assertive, wqhcih I beleive you do need to be when dealign with peoepl and animals, and certainly I would say my dogs are this too:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Assertiveness is a trait taught by many personal development experts and psychotherapists and the subject of many popular self-help books. It is linked to self-esteem and considered an important communication skill.

As a communication style and strategy, assertiveness is distinguished from aggression and passivity. How people deal with personal boundaries; their own and those of other people, helps to distinguish between these three concepts. Passive communicators do not defend their own personal boundaries and thus allow aggressive people to harm or otherwise unduly influence them. They are also typically not likely to risk trying to influence anyone else. Aggressive people do not respect the personal boundaries of others and thus are liable to harm others while trying to influence them. A person communicates assertively by not being afraid to speak his or her mind or trying to influence others, but doing so in a way that respects the personal boundaries of others. They are also willing to defend themselves against aggressive incursions.

> Like jan Fennell he is great at marketing himself; also his methods appeal more to some sections of the dog owning community than others.

Have just been reading an article on hierarchy and human psychology; it seems we are hard-wired to seek a stable hierarchy in our own social setting.  So it is no surprise to me that CM's methods (or Fennel, or anyone advocating pack theory/alpha) appeal to so many people - as a species we seem to have a basic need to be able to identify (and create if we can) stable, linear hierarchies, and it appears to extend to the social structures of other species around us.

Just think of how many people try to figure out who is 'top dog' amongst their own dogs - even without considering themselves as part of the pack.

Psychology is a fascinating subject!

I suspect the reason canines have managed to inveigle themselves into our lives is that they too need and form hierarchical social structures.

> Ohh I got that wrong!!!! according to his website Daddy was Cesars from 4 months old, different to what his book says ?????

that in and of itself makes me question him. if your a public figure that influences people consistancy is key, not lies. i was under the impression that daddy was a "red zone" dog as well.

he is cute though aside from the ears

> suspect the reason canines have managed to inveigle themselves into our lives is that they too need and form hierarchical social structures.

i quite agree. there are definate hierarchies in humam families and we see these repeated in dog familes as well as linking within a mixed human and dog household.

Just looked in  the only dictionary I have and the difinition of assertive in there is:

speaking and doing things in a confident and forceful way 

That seems to be the way a lot of people who I deal with that are having behavioural problems with their dogs interpret the word.  They feel that they need to be forceful and domineering to get their dog to do as they want and to make themselves the 'alpha' or 'pack leader'.  They use verbal and physical corrections and or modeling to get the dog to comply, often failing!  That is part of the reason I am uncomfortable using terms like that with people in regards to training, because everyone has different interpretations.

If owners have good enough timing to use punishment effectively then they also have good enough timing to get the same or better results using positive reinforcement.  If they don't have good timing at least lasting damage isn't done with positive reinforcement as it can be with punishment.  Some dogs cope physical training such as modeling, corrections etc fine but just because they have strong enough characters to deal with it doesn't make it the best way to train them.

Ceaser Milan can only deal with problem dogs on lead or in close proximity because without his physical or mental intimidation or control he doesn't have anything.  The few times I have seen him deal with problems at a distance have invloved the use of an electric collar :-/  Whatever words used to desciribe the way he trains, bullying, intimidation, assertiveness, the way he deals with these dogs is NOT necessary .  Any of the problems that I have seen on his show could have been dealt with by using positive reinforcement, counter conditioning, desenstisation and some just basic socialisation and training with much happier more content dogs at the end of, it that would have a stronger bond with their owners because of it.

I am not defending CM's  domineering and aggressive manner, but I do believe that a person has to be assertive when dealing with dogs and people, otherwise they will be walked all over.

> I am not defending CM's  domineering and aggressive manner, but I do believe that a person has to be assertive when dealing with dogs and people, otherwise they will be walked all over.

I think there are dogs that don't need an assertive approach, but there are also dogs that do need it. My dogs definately need an assertive approach, not harsh or forcefull, it's quite hard to explain, but I think the definition of assertive that Brainless put up is the closest I can think of in terms of a description.

Not replying to anyone is particular, just commenting as a whole

What may be different from North America, and the UK, is that if a dog shows any signs of aggression, or bad behaviour, it isnt welcomed in a training class.  Aggression could be simple barking, with some trainers.  You are asked to leave!  I remember in puppy class, there was a rambuntious lab x who was playing about, but a little too rough.  He was just a 15 week old pup, who was just being a puppy.  The owners tried calming him down, but when he was allowed to play again, it started right back up.  They were asked to leave, and didnt come back.  Other trainers, wont allow certain breeds into the classes.  A friend of mine, couldnt have his Akita in a class, because apparently all Akitas are killer dogs, and very dog aggressive.  Now, since he couldnt train his Akita properly, with guidance from a trainer, his Akita is tempermental, and very guardy.

Also, most people when they get their first dog, just lovey dovey them.  Spoil them, and have no clue about how to raise one properly.  First time owners make a lot of mistakes, and unfortunately, dont realize until it is already out of control.  For example, puppy biting.  A lot of people think its cute when their puppy comes home, chews on their fingers or hair when its 8 weeks old.  They dont tell it to stop, and just laugh it off.  But when the dog is full grown, it isnt cute anymore, and they have no idea what to do next.

About CM.  I do like his programs, and have taken a few things away from him.  Most people get a toy dog, thinking it can just run around the apartment, and thats the exercise it needs.  (must admit, I too thought that until I smartened up).  Anyways, so what he says about ALL dogs needing outdoor exercise, is very good. 

Also, he does say that you of course can give affection to your dog, but it isnt the only thing you have to give them.  Exercise, Discipline, Affection as he says.  If you dont have that, your dog wont be happy.  Discipline, also isnt just about correcting bad behaviour, it works with training, like training a dog to "leave it".  Rules boundaries limitations is another phrase he likes to use.  Nothing wrong with that concept either. 

He also talks about the crate issue.  Unfortunately, the Americas is a crate continent.  A lot of people get a dog, and just leave it in crates all the time.  The dog is bad, crate it.  I dont want to be bothered with the dog, crate it.  Well, if it spends its time in a crate a) its not fair to the dog, and b) it doesnt teach the dog how to behave. 

There are some good points, along with some bad points. 

In the UK(well at least at the clubs I have attended, dogs with behavioral problems are welcomed, because it is these dogs that need the most help from us to resolve the owner's problems. There was a lovely lady called Joyce Stranger(who sadly recently passed away)she held classes & always accepted dogs with behavioral problems & always managed to help them. She learnt from owning dogs with problems & solving them in a kind & non invasive manner(she was also an author-who wrote wonderful animal related books which are still selling)

CM is actually using his very aggressive body language to subdue &"dominant"the dogs. Canines as a species do not react well to being faced with aggression, this is why the Alpha s in a wolf pack are not forever fighting the others to prove that they are dominant, their pack consists of related animals, the Alphas being the oldest & only breeding pair, as their offspring mature they leave the pack eventually to form their own pack, they do not try to usurp their parents. now domestic dogs live in a totally different world, they are not allowed to breed at will, are often in groups of their piers, very close to their own age & not related, or even living on their own. Wolf behaviour due to domestication is worlds apart from the average domestic pet.

He shows the dogs no respect at all because he believes he has to dominate them in order to control them, when in fact dogs can be conditioned to behave as we require, without force or domination.

> now domestic dogs live in a totally different world, they are not allowed to breed at will, are often in groups of their piers, very close to their own age & not related, or even living on their own. Wolf behaviour due to domestication is worlds apart from the average domestic pet.

Absolutely, domestic dogs live in a very strange world.

In a natural state - i.e. feral dogs, village/pariah dogs, that sort of thing - packs are very rarely formed.  When they do form, any animals within them breed, there's no set hierarchy.  So bringing them into a very restricted living space such as a household must do all sorts of odd things to their social requirements; sparking the formation of loose hierarchies in packs, for instance.  Relating dog behaviour in such an environment to wolf behaviour is totally irrelevant IMO.  I would actually like to see a study done on pack behaviour in pet dogs - the work done on feral dogs is wonderful and quite eye-opening, much more relevant than wolf pack studies, but the household world is so very different from the feral world that more work needs to be done I think.

Crespin - that is awful.  Of course these 'killer breeds' are going to turn out that way if no-one is guided on how to raise them - poor dogs, and poor owners, the ones who try to do right by the dogs.  If I ever progress to taking classes, difficult dogs will be more than welcome - as MM says, those are the ones that need the most help.  My Soli could've used it - she had one, maybe two, puppy classes with her old owner and was given up on because she was too scared to come out from under the chair.  So when I got her at 5 years, I had 5 years of fear aggression to work on.  Had her old owner done what I did with Opi (who was exactly the same at her first puppy class), and put her through first one puppy course, then another because she didn't progress well, perhaps Soli would be more like her - every inch the socialite, loves other dogs and wonderful social skills.

i saw one of the episodes,there was a dog that hated going to the vet and wouldnt let the vet near her/him,this is just like my kia use to be with the vet.CM put a slip lead on the dog right uner its ears like he does and forced it to stay lying down on the vets table! thats so horribal! the poor dog was even more petrified! if id of done that to kia....i cant even imagine to think what damage that would of done to her.it took me over two years to be able to go into the vets and let him touch kia.
i dont get why people try and use his methods, it doesnt take a rocket scienctist to see the dogs are scared stiff!

Ditto with one dog that didn't like being in the car - he used a pinch and prong collar and dragged the poor thing in and out several times until it went in 'with no problem'!

Crespin - that is awful.  Of course these 'killer breeds' are going to turn out that way if no-one is guided on how to raise them - poor dogs, and poor owners, the ones who try to do right by the dogs. 

More and more trainers are wanting the easy dogs.  Like the lump on a log dogs, who wouldnt hurt a fly.  It looks better if they can say "I successfully trained X amount of dogs."  But when they get the dogs that need the work, that have some issues, they are sent away.  Sad really, as so many dogs are growing up to have nasty temperments, and the owners feel helpless.  More and more dogs are being PTS.

A lot of trainers also wont take the breeds affected by BSL.  Just because of a few bad apples, but they are going to make sure that there are more bad apples in the breed since they cant be trained or socialized properly.  Dont know many people that would want to pet a pitter, or AmStaff.  Just because of the rep they have. 

Makes me wonder, what kind of dogs we will have in Canada.  As its getting harder and harder to find trainers for certain breeds.  Its getting harder and harder to find people that would play with a 10 week old pup from certain breeds.  Even some insurance companies wont insure your home if you have a breed that is large, or on a list for bad temperment.

*Bump*

he is to me, i think his methods should be used as a last resort. my aunt is a dog behaviorist and sicoligist.
she said what he does are very similar to teh old 'dog bracking' methods of training.

Isn't it ironic that he calls himself the Dog Whisperer which I presume is borrowing from Monty Roberts the Horse Whisperer who's phillosophy was so against the old fashioned "breaking" methods with animals.  Maybe they should put CM in with a wild mustang and see how he copes when he can't force the animal to do what he wants! 

I'm not totally against him to be honest - its more the set up of his show, they put up a disclaimer about "don't try any of these methods at home" - whats the point of that! Of course people will copy him and that IMO is where the real danger lies because most people do not have anywhere near enough knowledge of dogs to safely implement dominant or physical behaviours towards their dogs without making things worse.  I've owned dogs all my life (one or two at a time) and I know I don't have the knowledge to use what I would call high risk strategies with dogs, each dog is different from the next and you have to really know what you are doing to understand whether a dog is actually being dominant or more likely acting out of fear or any other number of different motivations.  Whether or not CM methods are a good way for training dogs I'm 50/50, sometimes he is good but sometimes not but I'm damn sure he is NOT good at training owners to communicate with their dogs.  If owners are taught to use physical corrections and force as a first resort to stopping unwanted behaviour then you can bet 9 times out of 10 when they are tired and stressed and the dog is acting up they will get angry with the dog which will only make the dog act worse and make the owner more frustrated.  I know he talks about being calm assertive but in the real world when someone gets physical in a stressfull sittuation they are unlikely to be properly calm and they will develop the habbit of just physically punishing their dogs and not actually training them to do the good behaviours.  Can you imagine how much damage can be done if people used his methods on their puppies at home without understanding that puppies should be treated differently to adult dogs?  It always annoys me that a distinction between young dogs/puppies and adults is never made in dog training programes or books. 

Thats why I think if someone is going to get their information about training their dogs from books/tv/internet then positive reinforcement methods like clicker training or things like that are 100% better because they seriously cut down on the damage an inexperienced owner can do to their dog.  Any bad behaviours can be dealt with eventually by trial and error once you find what works with your dog, but damage done to a dog that makes it fearfull or agressive can be permenant.  Its total rubbish what he says about training owners and rehabilitating dogs - in practice the owners learn nothing other than to get physical when the dog doesn't do what you want.

'Isn't it ironic that he calls himself the Dog Whisperer which I presume is borrowing from Monty Roberts the Horse Whisperer who's phillosophy was so against the old fashioned "breaking" methods with animals.'

Funnily enough, I saw a Dog Whisperer episode where they brought in the 'Horse Whisperer' and they did a double act 'curing' both hound and horse.  Guess he's not against CM's harsh methods..... or maybe there was a substantial financial incentive :-D

i know my uncle thinks he is great, he doesnt have a dog anyway, and when im at my grand dads with my kooikerhondje (sensitve breed, that can get aggrssive if not treated right) he growls at her trying to get her to play rough,  told him not to and that he will only scare her and if he gets bitten i hope it hurts so he learns his lesson, she didnt bight him but she barked and her hackles went up. i told her of because i dont wont it to become a habbit, but he has stopped doing it. he is one of these people that thinks " im older than you so i no more about everything than you do".

oh and clicker training is teh way forward. i was told by a dog behavourist that humans are the only animals that use pain as a punishment.

I think Cesar is great

I think his methods are appalling.

Lindsay
x

>I think Cesar is great

Why? I don't like people who release videos of themselves strangling a dog into unconsciousness.

I said this before on another post I think - the big pet superstore has 3-4 of his training books on display - one of VS and not much else - I think the Gwen Bailey may have been in the puppy section.  Someone who is promoted so well must get a large following - who else are folks supposed to know about?   It isn't until you get problems that you turn to the internet and find this forum for instance.  As I said on HG's thread - it is surprising how many people do like him that I meet in the doggy world.

Yes, I think sometimes shops and superstores have a lot to answer for because they often stock the most recent or "popular" books rather than something less glossy but more helpful such as Pat McConnell, Jean Donaldson, Sophia Yin, Jane Killion, Dr Ian Dunbar, Sarah Fisher, etc.
There is another small paperback "dogwhisperer or listener" book by Paul someone or other and it's full of really good info, but it's not glossy and linked to exciting if wrong CM methods and not on tv...!

Best recent book I think is this one:

100 ways to train the perfect dog

http://www.amazon.co.uk/100-Ways-Train-Perfect-Dog/dp/0715329413

Very good for new dog owners and, I think anyway, for second and third dog owners (JMO though).

Lindsay
x

I think like all dog trainers etc.. you take some methods and leave others. It seems all trainers etc need to have their thing to make them stand out from the crowd, i.e. CM is calm assertive..whatever.

I don't think there is many methods everybody agrees with wholeheartedly (like clicker work- I think it has its limitations, their has only ever been one obedience champ who is clicker trained) and every dog is different and requires a different approach. CM has worked with a lot of strong breeds, I have never met a pitbull.. so maybe my coochy coochy (golden retriever style) approach wouldn't work with them.. but you don't know and your suggestions are only academic until you try them in practice. 

What i am trying to say is you cannot take everything from one trainer, you take bits a pieces here and there. What shocks me about the show is how many people do not exercise their hounds! When exercise is generally the answer.

What does increasingly bother me is his reasoning for behaviour which people do not seem to question, in undoubtedly makes dogs nervous by his presence- but he calls that being calm and submissive. I think we need to watch that. A dog yawning to me means they are unhappy and uncomfortable in the situation. CM says it means they are submissive. My dog yawns a couple of times before puking in the car because she gets car sick- she is unsteady and nervous before puking- she isn't submissive at any point!! I hope you understand my concerns and it is obviously worrying having such a strict (seemingly one and only) approach out there to the general public which they take as the bible whereas a true doggy person would take bits from all over.

It still amuses me that Victoria Stillwell turned out to be a fake! She has never owned a dog in her life. It just shows that when we take our emotions away from our dogs they are just input output machines- reward good behaviour ignore the bad.

Rant over!

> CM has worked with a lot of strong breeds, I have never met a pitbull.. so maybe my coochy coochy (golden retriever style) approach wouldn't work with them

The 'coochy coochy' approach works wonders with my Mastiff :) There is no way he would respond well to being 'dominated' and bullied like CM does to the smaller/less powerfull breeds.
I've seen CM on TV work with an African Mastiff, he did none of his dominating behaviours and def. no alpha rolls, he used socialisation and postitive association (food rewards) to work with him. If he can do that with the massive, powerfull, stubborn breeds (my Mastiff has showed me a whole new meaning to the word stubborn ) then he can use that approach with the smaller dogs, but he doesn't :(

(like clicker work- I think it has its limitations, their has only ever been one obedience champ who is clicker trained)

I know of at least two: Wendy Hagger with Ob Ch Aramisty Double O'Seven and Suzanna Jaffa's Ob. Ch Cagasa Dark 'n' Delicious OW CDex UDex WDex. There are others currently working ticket that are clicker trained. With clicker training only arriving in the UK 15 years ago, and obedience champions not being made up at the drop of a hat, time will tell. Those long established aren't about to change their training methods either I wouldn't have thought -but none of this means there never will be more ob ch clicker trained dogs in the UK or that the method is limited.

Maybe it was Crufts CC winner then??

I think everybody tweeks their methods as they go along.. I just love to see the well motivated dogs very excited about what they are doing.

No, no I never meant there will be no more great clicker trained dogs but more that its in fashion at the moment and there are other methods out there.

> I think like all dog trainers etc.. you take some methods and leave others.

You say this and so do many others - but without an understanding of learning theory and actually seeing what it is CM ACTUALLY does to dogs (which you clearly do see...) how do you explain to people which bits are sensible - exercise, understanding the breed traits that lead to certain behaviours, behaving calmly around dogs.... and which bits are nasty bullying domination tactics, like staring in their eyes, kicking, yanking, poking, alpha rolling etc...

Most people watching him and those like him do not have that level of knowledge and so CANNOT pick out whats good and what isnt except by pure luck.

Even those who have been ON his show havent managed to successfully recreate his method without him - the dog called Cotton (little fluffy white Eskimo dog jobby) who featured on his show a while ago.... has since been taken to a vet to have his/her teeth filed down in a desperate attempt to stop him biting! He is according to the interviews, WORSE than he was before Cesar Milan worked with him!

As far as Victoria Stilwell goes - Im not sure how you come to the conclusion shes a fake... she owns a labrador called Sadie at the moment, and as far as I am concerned the results speak for themselves. No 'dont try this at home' warning on HER shows!

> The 'coochy coochy' approach works wonders with my Mastiff :-) There is no way he would respond well to being 'dominated' and bullied like CM does to the smaller/less powerfull breeds.
>

and my bullmastiff :)

> I've seen CM on TV work with an African Mastiff, he did none of his dominating behaviours and def. no alpha rolls, he used socialisation and postitive association (food rewards) to work with him. If he can do that with the massive, powerfull, stubborn breeds (my Mastiff has showed me a whole new meaning to the word stubborn <IMG alt=eek src="/images/eek.gif"> ) then he can use that approach with the smaller dogs, but he doesn't <IMG class=sml alt=:-( src="/images/default/sml_neg.png">

funny that...

> No 'dont try this at home' warning on HER shows!

The last CM show i saw he advised people to contact a local 'professional' for advice .

I know of at least two: Wendy Hagger with Ob Ch Aramisty Double O'Seven and Suzanna Jaffa's Ob. Ch Cagasa Dark 'n' Delicious OW CDex UDex WDex. There are others currently working ticket that are clicker trained. With clicker training only arriving in the UK 15 years ago, and obedience champions not being made up at the drop of a hat, time will tell. Those long established aren't about to change their training methods either I wouldn't have thought -but none of this means there never will be more ob ch clicker trained dogs in the UK or that the method is limited

I'm not too up on Competition Obedience but a BSD won the Bitch Crufts obedience a few years ago (Lyn Luckock with Freya) and I believe Anne Bussey's collie is an Ob. Champion too, both clicker trained. There's also Mary Ray, pretty sure she has an Ob.Ch. who is clicker trained, at least the one.

As Marianne has said, clicker training is fairly new in a relative sense, and Obedience is a traditional sport - it takes alot of time for people to alter their ways.
I'm not saying everyone should use a clicker, but really they are so good for precision etc that it would very probably make life easier for people in Obedience if they did <g>

As far as Victoria Stilwell goes - Im not sure how you come to the conclusion shes a fake... she owns a labrador called Sadie at the moment, and as far as I am concerned the results speak for themselves. No 'dont try this at home' warning on HER shows!

Agree, she's certainly not a fake. Is that based on the fact that she didn't have her own dog?

She's worked with dogs for many years successfully, which for me is what counts :)

I don't care what anyone else says. I HATE Ceasar Milan. I think he is extremely cruel. i'd rather have a mis-behaving dog than call him in to "help"

been a long tour!about thirteen years!

I dont get this?

I'm sorry to reply to your particular post as there have been a number of posts on this forum which I've stumbled upon that paint Cesar Milan as a cruel dog trainer/bully?

I have 2 cocker spaniels and love them to bits. I have trained using positive training methods (and I still do) BUT I also follow the basics that Cesar Milan teaches. Since I have introduced some rules and discipline as Cesar suggests both dogs have become happier, calmer and better behaved dogs. They are not fearful of me, or unhappy with what I teach and I still give rewards for positive behaviour. I can now stop the dogs from misbehaving by my tone of voice - no touch - because I have stopped treating my dogs like fluffy pets and started treating them like dogs and they now respect the family rather than walk all over us!

All the clips and 'snippets' of information people write about Cesar are usually 'extreme' cases and never show or detail the complete story. Cesar works to help dogs that most other people have given up on and sometimes where the owners are considering putting their dog down as a last resort. He has helped all sorts of dogs - aggressive dogs, fearful dogs and all the dogs he helps benefit from exercise, discipline (rules, boundaries and limitations) AND affection!

I read a post on this forum, where a lady told her dog off with the Cesar "bite" - the dog sulked and the owner felt guilty??? My guess is the dog sulked because it had never been shown discipline before and was probably in shock!!

I really enjoy taking my two dogs to a local training school where the dogs enjoy basic dog training, agility etc and it is all based on rewarding positive behaviour. However, I have witnessed on a number of occasions dogs running away from their owners and attacking other dogs during training - some resulting in bad bite marks to the dog and a badly shaken owner. The attacking dogs are never corrected and every week they are hyped up and ready to go again. They are never calm and often have to be muzzled.

As humans, we discipline children and teach them rules and give them boundaries otherwise our children will grow up as out of control hooligans, but where our dogs are concerned people let them rule because they are cute and bad behaviour is often overlooked and ignored. I have never seen an episode of The Dog Whisperer where I have thought Cesar Milan has been cruel to a dog - but I have seen and read many success stories where people have changed their lives and the dogs (for the better) by promoting a calmer, happier and well disciplined dog. I believe that because Cesar is usually called in as a last resort, that the cases are extreme and for anyone that owns a dog with extreme problems they really should be seeking professional help and not trying to replicate everything cesar does - he has many years experience and understanding of dogs.

Last week there was an awful article in a national newspaper which showed recent victims of dog attacks - all youngsters - all died. All the victims where savagely attacked with faces ripped off. Most under 5 years old. I was horrified. If more people took better responsibility of their dogs and taught them rules, discipline and limitations and provided enough exercise - we would see less problem cases and better, more sociable dogs.

Lastly, Caesar is not cruel, he often has to calm crazy dogs that no-one else can control and I've never seen him hurt a dog. The videos that are shown online of his "cruel" methods never show the full story. I now attend training classes with a trainer who also promotes a calm, healthy state of mind in dogs and since implementing these methods (in the same way as Cesar does) - my dogs are much happier, and no longer stressy dogs around the house - to the benefit of them and us.

All dogs of all sizes and breeds have sharp teeth which can hurt and as we have seen, kill. As a dog owner and lover, I would rather call in an expert like Cesar than have a mis-behaving dog that rules the roost.

I guess if you want to live in the dark ages, that's your choice.
Just about all the major dog organisations in the UK, US and Europe have spoken out against his methods. Some counties are even trying to get his shows banned from their national TV networks.

If you want to train dogs the Spanish Inquisition way, that's up to you but very few people will support you and you may find yourself up against animal welfare laws in the future.

> my dogs are much happier, and no longer stressy dogs around the house

My dog is happy, calm and well behaved (well, saying that, I don't class the odd burst of excitement due to immaturity as bad beahviour, I expect CM fans would though) and amazingly it's through reward based training, not any CM thing.
I agree that dogs need to be taught rules, but rules were around long before CM was even born, it's just a lot of us prefer to teach rules in a positive way, setting the dog up for sucess and therefore do not NEED to jab, alpha roll or jerk our dogs around.

If CMs methods are so great why doesn't HE use them on dogs such as Nazir the Boerboel? Because he knows how dangerous it can be to push a dog into reacting on it's instincts.

> I have stopped treating my dogs like fluffy pets and started treating them like dogs

I am fully aware that my dog is a DOG, which is why I am not stupid enough to jab him in the neck or alpha roll him :)

A lot has been learnt about how dogs mind work, how they think, how they learn, it's easy to make put this information to great effect. Teach a dog it's GOOD to do X Y or Z and the dog is most likely to opt for that behaviour even with the owner not present, in fact 'conditioning' the behvaiour with rewards means the behaviour becomes automatic. However, teach the dog if it does X Y or Z it gets punished (or 'corrected') it only leanrs to 'behave' in the presence of the person that instills that correction, or worst case it has enough of feeling unhappy and bites.

I want my dog to choose the behaviour I teach him ALL the time, not just because he doesn't want me to 'correct' him.

Completely agree.  I have to say did have a giggle at the thought of someone like you or I (with dogs bigger than ourselves) trying to alpharoll them, FozzieBear would think that a wonderful game and soon have me pinned to the floor!

Check this link, it'll give you lots of information why dominance/punitive training is not a good idea: http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/