Thank you for all your kind thoughts.

I went back to the vets and decided that he should be euthanised. I spoke to a few vets and they all said chances of survival were slim to none...and yes you are right I would have had to have kept him as well...which I wasnt planning to but I would have given the circumstances.

He was a little fighter and if money hadn't been an issue I would have gotten the surgery but alas I just don't. The vet said that the operation at their premises would be in excess of £500 + aftercare etc and the best chances for the pup would have been the Vet Hospital (Glasgow Uni) but he'd expect the fees to be nearer £2000. Another contributory factor is that I am back at work on Thursday after being off the last 10 days and will only be able to pop back at lunchtime to check on the pups so I couldn't give the lil one the time and attention he would need during recovery and to hand feed him.

I feel awful but I know it's the best thing for him. He was very small from birth and wasn't growing at the rate he should be....I guess that's me trying to justify my actions but doesn't help much.

Thank you again guys.....and on a lighter note the other 8 pups are going from strength to strength and are getting more boisterous by the day :) house will be a riot in about 10 days time lol

Kelly

This is a really difficult operation even in an adult and the chance of full recovery may not be very high. You can speak to the vet about the prognosis should the little pup be strong enough to take the antithetic and then make up your mind. It is hard to do but all part of having a litter sadly and I am sure you will do what is best for the pup without any thought to the costs but in the end you may decide that he has had enough.

One consolation if the worst does happen you will not have time to dwell on it as the other 8 will keep you busy.

I really thnk you have done the best thing Kelly.

I kep checking this thread to see if there was any more news, dear little thing. I also read the thread re fading pup syndrom. Im not sure I could breed dogs (which is good news as I have a dog) its heart rending. keeping my fingers crossed re this little mite.

> I went back to the vets and decided that he should be euthanised.

Sorry Kelly we posted at the same time, I know you have come to the correct decision given the advice you have been given.

Sorry Kelly, I have been following this thread and am very sory that the little on didn't make it.

Kelly

I'm so sorry for you - I know how hard it is to lose a little one.  But you did the right thing for him - he was so little and weak and in pain - now he is at peace.  Take comfort in all your other little puppies and cherish every minute you can spend with them.

Thanks for everyones kind words I really appreciate it so much.

sorry to hear about the little one but i have to ask you-- how can you go back to work and only pop home at lunchtime? i was with my pups 24/7 untill the danger of being crushed subsided (about 3 weeks) and then i only left them when they were asleep. the rest of the time i was feeding/cleaning/socialising/taking in and out of garden etc. maybe i have misunderstood you but how can you leave them alone????

So sorryKelly, is does sound more like

>Intussusception -- In young pups (and other animals including humans) the intestine can invaginate (one part slips inside another). The condition, also referred to as "telescoping intestines," occurs in adults, too, but not as frequently. Most common immediate causes include worms, obstruction by indigestible materials, garbage, or toxic substances. The German Shepherd seems to experience a high incidence of this disorder and I believe there is a genetic propensity, a familial trait, in certain bloodlines.

I personally would also have let him go as even after a successful operation the puppies rarely thrive

Again due to personal circumstances I have absol no choice but to go back to work. There was meant to be someone here 24/7 but unfortunately that is not the case anymore. My housemate is in during the day and will keep an eye on them but he is not as versed in animal husbandry as I'd like but it is better than nothing.

I am pretty confident they will not be crushed as they are extremely vocal and let mum know if she is even leaning against their tails lol. Obviously I am concerned but needs must and things do happen last minute that can scupper even the best laid plans. And as for socialising...they are a week old? their eyes won't open for another 3-5 days. They get handled every night and I sit in the pen area with them for hours at a time, mesmerised by them crawling about and nuzzling up to me and sniffing incesently. I live in Glasgow, Scotland and if you are not aware the weather here does not really allow garden trips (except these past 2 days but highly unusual for the sun to be out).

so what happens from 5 weeks when they need to go outside? mine went out every 2 hours and were almost housetrained when they left. have you had a litter before? i dont think you realise how much poo there is and how often you have to clear it up, its ok when mum cleans them but once they start solids (6 times a day) they poo and YOU have to clean it. who will be there to feed them?

Kelly I too live in Glasgow ,have you been outside lately? When I have pups they are outside most of the daylight hours in their puppypen and are supervised at all times from about 4 weeks old .They are after all going to live in Scotland so it is best for them to get fresh air .
Your last comments have shocked me why oh why do you think that these 1 week old pups don`t need constant care ,the mum also needs to be watched in case she gets ill.Puppies can go down so fast and unless you are there you will walk into a horror when you come home from work.I am talking about fading puppies.
I don`t normally get so wound up but this has got me going because its in my backyard.
If you need help from people experieced in caring and raising pups ASK I won`t be the only one to offer.

Perhaps some people will realise why there were REAL concerns,  although shared, they were not personal. Nobody was " having a go or condeming"
(I think it was Chloe101 and Calmstorm that criticised some posters for sharing their concerns about this litter siutuation)

I had hoped differently but I am saddened now this thread and litter is progressing just as I expected ( after biting my tougue for 24 hours)  I wanted to add that some of us are a little long in tooth and can spot a problem right from the word go. I certainly did. People can say, defend,  make excuses for others all they like. From the word go when the vet could not be contacted for hours and hours. ( never heard this in my life)  I have had concerns for this litter.   It isn't personal to Kelly I can assure you.

My original concerns came from worry by a person who makes sure there is a back up plan in place. It isn't hard to do, it is called planning.  These are living breathing little creatures brought on this earth not by nature but by the person mating them.  I wonder if the same people will jump to defend if Kelly came home from work with dead puppies, crushed, choked on milk , would this be ashame or neglect??   There are hundreds of reasons these puppies need supervised.  The blatent comments now that they are "likely" to be Ok is very alarming.

If someone doesn't have;

1) access to emergency funds whether from a back up credit card( which any one can get) or

2)  back up assistance from freinds and family EVEN neighbours to help out then I am sorry the risk of mating this bitch should not have been mated.

Everyone can find themselves stuck at times but it is the actions we put in place that makes the difference.

I pray these puppies actually make it to 4 weeks and then I pray when they are ready to go to homes they will be easily socialised at a later date by the new owners and a breed that can be easily.

It is all and well being all soft and nice to people but good breeders should only promote good breeding practices in my opinion and that starts from the first thought of mating and bitch.

Blue totally agree with you . You realised what was going on before me.I am upset for these poor little pups shes already lost one and that doesn`t seem to be warning enough for her.I won`t write what I want to write as I`d get banned.When I have puppies I love care and worry for them 24/7 and that includes after they have gone to their new homes.I couldn`t leave a litter no matter how much it cost me.
This post has been an eyeopener for me I just wish I knew where these pups were as someone needs to care for them.

Yes Blue, it was me who was most adamant that people give Kelly some slack because she was going through an awful circumstance. And I still maintain, with the thread at the point it was at that time, I was right in what I said. Sometimes some vets do not respond in the way we need them too. The first vet was diabolical. Puppy put on a drip and nothing else, the vet nurse sleeping rather than being awake...no written obs from (from memory) 11pm to 7 am....and a whacking great bill for what? Then, when she gets worried about paying...out you go.

Unless, of course, you are saying Kelly was lying about all this.

Life has a way of turning and biting you in the bum, Kelly does not have to put her life story here but....she came for help and advice, so in my mind someone who asks for help and advice ...cares....and she could have taken the option of saving money and simply putting the puppy in a bucket of warm water, or asking the vet to pts. But no, she was distrought and wanted to do the best she could for the puppy, and try to save it.
A friend of mine, many years ago, had an awful thing happen to her, something totally unexpected. happily married, two lovely girls. Hubby went to work for an early shift, she took the girls to school and went to her part time job, only 10-2pm, when she came home she found he'd almost emptied the house of what he could get his hands on, including food, and left her for his mistress. She tried to buy some food, only to realise he had cleared the account Later she was to find the joint savings had gone too. These things can happen, and rock the world of any of us, and any carefully laid plans fail to dust.

I knew, when she said she would not be home all day for the puppies, she would be critised, even though no one knows if she had planned to take time off to see to the puppies or not. No, its certainly not ideal the way the puppies are going to be reared. None here will know the full story, but life leaves it open to any of us to fall on bad times.

It is all and well being all soft and nice to people but good breeders should only promote good breeding practices in my opinion and that starts from the first thought of mating and bitch. of course, totally agree, and breeders should be there 24/7 for their puppies, which would mean they don't work or if they do they can employ someone capable of taking over in their absence. At least for the gestation period and then at least 10 weeks after if all puppies don't leave by 8 weeks.

Like you, Blue, I had concerns even from reading through the previous thread. I just hope that this at least has the outcome that it makes at least one person realise that breeding is very expensive in money, time and emotions. Also breeding a litter without full back up and help from other people is in my opinion, totally impossible. It is beyond my comprehension that anyone who has to go out to work and only pop back at lunchtime can believe that puppies will be reared properly, and ready for new homes.

Calmstorm, if Kelly has to return to work (for whatever reasons) isnt it part of planning a litter to expect the unexpected and have it covered? To me, one of the first things anyone who works would consider is covering the possibility of not being able to take 10 weeks or so off and have someone available to step in if needed. If that someone has to be paid, then that should be catered for in the contingency funds.

I`ve just read through the previous thread and it certainly raises a lot of concerns ,she wrote ` I am not an irresponsible breeder by any means and have kept and bred all manners of mammals and psittacines ` hmmm

breeders should be there 24/7 for their puppies, which would mean they don't work or if they do they can employ someone capable of taking over in their absence. At least for the gestation period and then at least 10 weeks after if all puppies don't leave by 8 weeks.

Did you miss this bit at the end of my post :)

Reading kellys post, earlier on, she said that someone was to have been there 24/7, but for whatever those personal reasons are, this is not now possible and she has to rely on the room mate to help.

I don't like the attitude of 'oh they'll be fine' and I don't think they will. Sadly :(  Having looked at the post JG put up regarding the condition, I would worry about worms and worm the mum and litter as soon as I could, just to be on the safe side. And, I would take up the very kind offer of help from the poster here (sorry, names gone but you know who you are :) ) who lives in the same area and is offering to assist with this litter. Thats what I call real support.

However, there is one thing I know for certain, the unexpected can and sometimes does happen, and it is impossible to plan for every eventuality. Its only when this happens to you personally, that you realise this is a fact of life. Hopefully, it will never happen to anyone here.

It is me I offered to help and still will

Hiya,
Just read this post with a lump in my throat. I feel terribly sorry for you and cant offer any advice, just kind thoughts and hugs.
Whatever happens i dont think anyone can question your deviton, love and care for this pup. You really have done everything you can. Not religious but sometimes these things are in the lap of the gods.
I too think you were overcharged and the treatment they provided was, at best crap.
I understand the financial worries and sometimes we have bigger worries and the money gets gobbled up.
I truly truly sorry you have to go through this and i hope everything works out.
xxx

> so what happens from 5 weeks when they need to go outside?

It isn't just that they need to go outside for cleanliness sake and fresh air, but they will scream their little heads off at close confinement at that age.

My breed simply will get very agitated being kept penned up at that age as they want to get further away from where they eat and sleep to be clean.

To grow properly pups need fresh air and exercise.

Even when I had a small litter of just 3 pups I couldn't' keep them to just their puppy pen in kitchen past five weeks of age.

Just cleaning up from what they do overnight is enough to knock you over in the morning, and trying to get to roll up the paper before the darlings have tracked through it to get to you and patted it all over your face is quite a race.

By 6 weeks mine are yelling their heads off first thing because they want to be let outside to toilet and are desperately hanging on until I do.

It is rare that I have a poo in the kitchen after they are around 7 weeks of age as long as they have clear access to outside.  Wees are another matter altogether.

It is me I offered to help and still will

Your wonderful, what a lovely person. :-) I hope that help is received, looks as though it will be greatly needed. 

Sorry, Calmstorm: I mis-read it :O

Your wonderful, what a lovely person.
My thoughts exactly carrington. if I was kelly I'd be beating the door down!

Sorry, Calmstorm: I mis-read it :O

LOL...no probs :)

Thanks i`m sure you would do same if you were near. I can`t stand  by knowing puppies need help its really tugging at my heart string ,thought only my dogs and my son could do that

Wow didnt quite exepect so many comments and I appreciate the few people that have given me support and consideration to my personal circumstances.

I do not and should not have to justify my actions. Like i said earlier DUE TO UNFORSEEN CIRCUMSTANCES....(for the people that do not understand what this means; unforseen - couldnt be planned/imagined)....my contingency plans cant be fulfilled. You cannot expect people to have a contingency plan for their contingency plan and another to back that contingency plan up!

There are a few things in life you take for granted and despite all of your history and past experience would bet your life savings on those things never changing.....but unfortunately those things have happened and are totally out of my control.

My work is at the end of my street, literally 50 metres from my house and I will be back in the house as often as is possible and for an hour at lunchtime. The maximum time I will be out the house is 3 and a half hours, I appreciate that this is not ideal but it I am trying to make the best of a very difficult position that I have been left in.

The back garden is completely fenced off and there are kennels in the garden for the pups along with shade/shelter. The pups will have constant access to this once they are old enough and mum has constant access to the garden/kennel now as well. Mum has been wormed and the pups will be wormed at 2, 4, 6 and 8 weeks.

My housemate is in the house during the day and will be supervising the puppies...but like I stated he is not as versed in animal husbandry as I'd like but i'd rather he was there than no one. As stated previously there was meant to be someone here 24/7 looking after pups and mum but they will no longer be here. People seem to be picking up on some points in my posts but not others and are passing judgement without understanding the full situation which I feel very sorry for you as you are clearly extremely judgemental people.

I have kept and bred African Greys, Conures, Amazons and Macaws for over 14 years and anyone that is familiar with Psittacines will be aware that their metabloism is much faster than pups and they face more dangers and rapid degredation in their condition. I was a livestock keeper in a small zoo looking after everything from mice to rabbits, sheep, goats, pigs right up to horses, guanacos, llamas and even bison. I would think this would give me quite a vast experience over the majority of breeders...wouldnt you?

I came to this site for help and advice with my first whelping and the poorly puppy not to be cyber bullied or attacked verbally. If I did not give a toss for the animals in my care do you think for one second I would have taken an obviously very sick puppy to the emergency vets..knowing full well that I did not have the funds to pay for it??? Luckily my older vet helped me out in this situation which I am incredibly grateful for and will pay off the balance as soon as possible. Again the people that have offered me help and support I thank you and I appreciate it more than you will ever realise.

Kelly

Hi Morag,

Thank you for your kind offer of help this is testiment to the type of person you are and it is incredibly sweet of you.

I mentioned in my other post that normally the weather is not good here (except the last few days) so yes I am well aware the weather has been unusually good. Right at this moment and for the past 3 days the pups are fast asleep in their whelping pen and the back patio door is open so to give them all the fresh air their little lungs can take without them being in direct sunlight or in danger of being attacked by other animals if they were actually outside.

"why do you think that these 1 week old pups don`t need constant care" - I did not at any point state that they did not need care I simply said that at this stage I am not as concerned as I was when they were younger about being crushed by mum. I am well aware of PFS and am and always will be concerned about this and should my housemate notice anything untoward he is able to contact me or simply walk round the corner to get me. The vet is happy with the condition of the other pups and has categorically stated that the smallest pups condition was a one off and extremely rare and most likely congenital.

Exagerated.  I have bred 4 litters in my life and have never stayed home with them more than one week 24/7.  Never yet lost one, never had to supplement feeding, never had one ill and never slept in the same room as the pups.  Always been there while the bitch is giving birth and helped her with the cleaning and resuscitaion ofthe pups.  Have always let the bitch get on with the job herself.  This is the basic problem with dogs today and the reason that problems occur.  Let the poor animals get on with things on their own.  They are MORE than capable.  Too much causes TOO many problems.

Think that nearly everyone in this forum has to work to earn a living. 

Completely supportive to you kelly.  You do not have to justify yourself to anyone.

Hi Kelly,

Just to say I'm sorry that you lost a puppy but I think you did as much as you possibly could for it.  I had to have a puppy PTS at a week old, I knew it was inevitable but it didn't stop a few tears whilst my vet confirmed that it wasn't worth subjecting the little mite to a lifetime of potential problems.

I have reared 3 litters of pups on my own, in my own house & worked too.  I don't think they have suffered for it - well certainly not show-wise ;-) - and my neighbours comment that my dogs are exceptionally well behaved.  I took time off for the bitch to whelp and then maybe another week or 2 when the pups where up on their feet but I didn't have the luxury of anyone else's financial support.

The first time I take the pups to the garden, they all bound back in until they feel they want to explore themselves and I let them set the time limits.   Likewise knowing which ones to start weaning a bit earlier to help them catch up etc.

I really think you need to read all the posts and not just take little snipbits ,good or bad thats how you learn how to be a good breeder.I can only hope you have things under control as you will pay dearly if you don`t.

It`s time this thread was closed

Thank you Spugsy. I do agree with a lot of your points. In birds and most animals...if you look at Quails for example..it is a common problem when they are hand reared or humans intervene too much that they lose their natural instincts, Quails do not incubate their own eggs because of this 90-95% of all qualis are hand reared. Simialr problems in zoo bred animals incur as well.

I do believe that the dogs require as much attention as possible but also ask that mum actually performs her job 100% as well this will enable the pups to be reared properly and get teh very best in life.

And yes I do have to work to earn a living and it is indeed a fine balance.

Thanks again Spugsy

Hi Christine,

Thank you again for your support. And yes I shed more than a few tears but I knew I was doing the best for him didnt make it any easier.

> I really think you need to read all the posts and not just take little snipbits ,good or bad thats how you learn how to be a good breeder.I can only hope you have things under control as you will pay dearly if you don`t.
>

I have.

I have read every single post several times and take every comment onboard. I am not for a second suggesting that I know everything, I do not...thats why I am here. I do have a lot to learn and I want as much information as possible so I do become a better breeder and most importantly the animals are in excellent care and live full happy lives!

The thread doesn't require to be closed, there is nothing wrong with debating a subject. We are all adults here and should treat everyone fairly and with respect.

The only issue I have had is that people have jumped on me without knowing the full situation...all I have been asking for is advice, help and a little support.

Thank you again to everyone that has offered me support and has been so understanding of my circumstances.

Kelly

Unfortunately kelly, some people like to use any opportunity to criticise instead of help. No matter how much money you had or expeiance you have we all need some help now and again. give Kelly a break.lets stop the bitching and get back to what she came here for.
So how is little one Kelly?

Thanks Freds Mum,

Its ashame that this post for help has descended in to so much chaos that my post about having him euthanized has been burried.

Unfortunately the surgery would have been too much for him, vet said very little chance for survival and he failed to respond to any fluids/medication he was given so i had decided to get him pts, was extremely hard choice and it was absolutely heartbreaking :(

Other pups are doing brilliant gaining weight daily and very hyper...all very fit and strong :)

Kelly

You didnt make the decision lightly and did all you could. Shame it couldnt have a happy ending but now you can focus on mum and the rest of the beautiful babies.
What breed is it?

Yeah I know and thats exactly what I am doing. Not allowed to post the breeds on here so shall PM you :)

Freds mum have your even read the thread?    Clearly not you are still asking how the little one is. ..  that is perhaps a little insensitive  at least keep up. :-)

some people like to use any opportunity to criticise instead of help  WHO?

give Kelly a break.lets stop the bitching   WHO?

These are the childish immature comments that are not needed in threads.

Constructive comments for the posters AND equally important ANY FUTURE READER whether constructive critical or not.

I don't give a hoot who goes to work or thinks they are hard done by,  puppies at a young age should not be left alone.      I can now see why so many have disappeared recently if we are now saying it is OK to leave puppies for lengths of time.

this must have been very very hard for you after the day i have had with my two by c-section today i thought they were dead i cried so much when the vet told me they were alive i can only imagine how hard this has been my heart goes out to you.

Blue I think your comments were unnecessary and you are fuelling the situation. And Blue I really hope you are never hit by hard times or have anything happen that you couldnt have predicted and I'm sorry to say you will recieve absol no sympathy from me and I doubt from many others on here. Compassion is meant to be a human trait and natural but you would make it very hard for me although clearly I would never wish bad on anyone.

Like I said earlier we are all adults and should respect each other and treat each other how we would like to be treated.

Yes Freds Mum missed the post but in fairness it is easliy done when there are so many posts here....the one post about having him euthanized is burried under many others.

I agree constructive critiscism is totally welcome but only when it is constructive and is relevant based on all the facts.

I think it best we stop the replies that are inflaming the situation and just agree to disagree on this one.

Bygones?

Actually Pam, I know the reasons why some of the regulars have left & it's got quite a lot to do with posters rather than posts.

Blue I think your comments were unnecessary and you are fuelling the situation.  Good for you, you would think them unnecessary. I maybe would to if I was you.  They are not fueling anything that isn't already there.    I was acutally going to commend you for taking the Constructive criticism well but I think these silly replies is what make the thread childish and take it way into the gutter.  I don't do "bitchy" or " childish"  I am frank and honest.   Nothing wrong with that.

BTW What comments were unnecessary?   I think the real problem is not that what you are doing is not or right BUT that the fact you know and some others know it isn't right and it has hit a nerve.  Feeling sorry for puppies or feeling sorry for your troubles doesn't mean that leaving puppies and being unprepared is OK.  

I am an ethical breeder who plans and makes sure she is organised it will take a lot more than " it is such a shame".  I am a regular poster and have a right to share my concerns whether your or any other person thinks your situation is ideal because the fact is It isn't an ideal situation.

Hit by hard times. This can happen to anyone that is why with Planning an emergency credit card could be kept for this purpose  NO?????   That would not have affected you at all Financially. So whats the problem with pointing this out to you or any FUTURE breeders who may find themselves in a similar situations.

YOUR second problems which may be related or unrelated to the first.

My calculation is that you have taken 2 weeks off work.

Like it or lump it I think we have only half the story.  That's fine BUT don't think we all share the same views.

BTW and is relevant based on all the facts ALL my comments are based on the facts you have posted in the thread. EVERYONE. None made up or second guessed.

Hi Benson67,

I am so happy that the 2 pups were ok, and I wish you all the best with them!

It was absolutely heartbreaking, but there are reasons for these things as well and I do understand that - circle of life and all that.

Kelly

Actually Pam, I know the reasons why some of the regulars have left & it's got quite a lot to do with posters rather than posts.

Christine That was my point and I can see why based on what I am seeing.   Perhaps you and I see the types of posters differently. I would hope not though. 

A few that have stopped posting or actually left keep in touch with me. Not sure if similar people but certainly all ethical long term breeders.

I am seeing a disturbing swing in the types of breeding threads and breeding practices appearing recently. 

People have to learn to stop being so touchy.  Stop interpretating everything so personally.   I dont' know how some people survive in the hard world outside the WWW :-)  There are toughies out there to :-)   Nobody will ever stop me promoting good breeding practices

Going off the original post and I'm sorry for that - but I too have thought there has been far less posting than usual over the past few weeks.  Some comments from them are useful and others do condem - but its interesting to read different peoples opinions.  When I have asked for help/advice, I have at times been critised, but on the other hand have had some really useful and pleasant PM's.
I have read most of the responses on this post and I do feel dreadfully for OP - breeding is very hard work - emotionally, physically and often financially.  I do think far too many people go into it without anywhere near enough knowledge - this is obvious from the posts in this section.  I know we all have to start somewhere and I would advocate starting with the assistance of the breeder from whom you got your bitch.  They can advise you on all sorts of things as hopefully they are very experienced in the breed.

Like I said everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I respect yours and I respect your frankness and honesty even if I do not agree and would like it known that I do take on your points but again would like to state that all of your suggestions would have been valid if it was something I could actually sort out but alas again due to my personal circumstances there is no more I physically could have done, other than sell a body part!

I am not going to reply to you anymore, I offered an Olive branch which you literally ignored so fine that was your choice and everyone here can plainly see that.

Topic finished.

If anyone else would like to ask anything or offer advice I absolutely welcome it :)

Thanks again,

Kelly