I too have issues with culling. I know each breed is different, and will have differing health requirements. What I struggle with, is the issue of when to cull. I have to test for liver shunt at 8 weeks, if a pup fails it can be re-tested, but if it fails again the only option is PTS, by this time the pup could be 12 weeks old. If pups are culled earlier, how do you know you're not culling healthy pups if there are no obvious outward signs?? And in this breed, liver shunt doesn't really show until 4 months plus.....

I have heard of "old" breeders who have PTS at birth, as previous posts have discussed, but I think nowadays with all the health tests, it maybe takes a more responsible and heartbreaking attitude to rear pups to a later age....I pray to God (or any other deity) that I NEVER have to think about this, the only peace of mind I got when one of my pups died at 2 days old last summer, was knowing there would have been little suffering at that age...

a contentious issue, no right or wrong answer.....    

mastifflover....
Calmstorm - it was me that picked up on the culling and starting the thread going on a tangent, I am sorry, I didn't meant to ruin your thread

Its ok, no worries, threads do go off at tangents sometimes :) ......it dropped the tone when it seems that breeders  cull when the order book is not full for the puppies born. I thought this practise of 'bucketing at birth' as was refered to this practise was stopped years ago. Obviously I was mistaken. Even if it is the vet that does it now. Can't help wondering how they feel when faced with a healthy litter of newborns, 5 on mum and 5 to be culled.

I am more than aware of what happens with farm animals, hands on aware. If the public knew what really hapened to the food they eat when it was alive they would be dismayed no doubt. Two wrongs don't make a right. Do they?

> I have to test for liver shunt at 8 weeks, if a pup fails it can be re-tested, but if it fails again the only option is PTS, by this time the pup could be 12 weeks old. If pups are culled earlier, how do you know you're not culling healthy pups if there are no obvious outward signs?? And in this breed, liver shunt doesn't really show until 4 months plus.....

I really feel for you Dearlady.  I knew someone in Greyhounds years ago who had to have half a litter PTS at 8 weeks old due to liver shunt.  It's a horrible disease :(

Debs

> When the love for a breed means the individual dogs lifes within that breed are disposable, and an entire litter can not be homed within a 5 year waiting peroid than maybee that breed should be allowed to die out.
>

That's completely unrealistic. Apart from the fact that very few people can either afford to keep perhaps half a dozen dogs from a litter, or even have the space to do so, it can't be good for the pups to live entirely in what is essentially a pack situation, with no opportunity for individual socialisation.

There are some minority breeds that are very much specialist dogs - think of the Komondor, the Bergamasco - even, dare I say it Mastifflover, the Mastiff. Just because they aren't suitable for everyone why should these beeds be allowed to die out? Surely every breeder holds their breed in trust for future generations?

Maybe you should ask around all the Mastiff breeders you can find - perhaps they won't admit it, as this is seen as politically unacceptable nowadays, but I bet a fair number of responsible Mastiff breeders cull large litters - and those that don't are perhaps more interested in £££ signs than in the pssibility of good homes.

I really feel this needs to be put into perspective. This is  rare these days and is heartbraking for the breeder even when they know they will possible have this choice to make. It has been very specialist breeding discussed on the whole ( not the dobes).

> Did breed rescue refuse to assist her in homing these dogs? if so, what age did she go for help? And why did they refuse? Perhaps had she gone there when the puppies were 10 weeks and it was obvious they were not going to be homed rescue could have. There are enough Dobe rescues around the country, and breed clubs, surely someone could have found 7 homes for well bred Dobes? I

Most breed rescues make it very plain that it is not part of their job to find homes for pups that breeders can't sell.

> Most breed rescues make it very plain that it is not part of their job to find homes for pups that breeders can't sell

And quite right too.

Well if the dobe was not the breed you were on about why ask about a 5 month old dobe?  *confused*

How did I miss this thread until now?!

I've never had to cull a puppy, or kitten -not counting when there have been obvious problems from birth making it essential it was pts as soon as possible. I have however had to cull many, many smaller animals like mice.

What I find hard to understand in this thread is WHY anyone would see it as wrong to cull an animal soon after birth. It's only due to human emotions, surely. The ONE thing we can be sure of is that a dead animal is NOT going to suffer in any way and is not going to end up in a bad home, so the dead ones are "safe" -for want of a better word. (Remember English isn't my language, can't think of a better word right now.) It isn't even anything like putting down an adult that has known life. It isn't anything anyone that breeds WANTS to do, but I honestly cannot see why anyone should have a problem with it when it is a true welfare question.

Back in the 80's I was a member of a breed club in Sweden for a giant breed that I had an interest in and were considering getting a puppy of. I stayed a member for a few years. (Never did get one though.) That breed club had as a RULE that no member must allow their bitch to keep more than a certain number of pups per litter (breed known for large litters), the rest HAD to be culled -for themother's sake.

>That breed club had as a RULE that no member must allow their bitch to keep more than a certain number of pups per litter (breed known for large litters), the rest HAD to be culled -for themother's sake.

With my first litter back in the 70s, a pup was sold to a Swiss gentleman. He was very surprised that this bitch was from a litter of 10, because in Switzerland (at the time - it might well have changed since) a bitch wasn't allowed to rear more than 8 puppies, otherwise none of the pups could be registered! If it was later discovered that more puppies had been reared then the registration was removed from the rest.

> Maybe you should ask around all the Mastiff breeders you can find - perhaps they won't admit it, as this is seen as politically unacceptable nowadays, but I bet a fair number of responsible Mastiff breeders cull large litters - and those that don't are perhaps more interested in £££ signs than in the pssibility of good homes.

One Mastiff breeder was recently heartbroken that out of a litter of 18, 2 were still born, they are keeping 1 and will home the rest. Responsible homes for breeds like this are quite easy to find if you are experienced in that breed (and therfore are privy to a network of breed enthusiasts), I doubt the breeder had 15 homes lined up, but she will not struggle to get all the pups placed in loving, caring responsible homes.

I'm sure, if you have the facilities - and I agree that you shouldn't be breeding unless you have - that it is possible in time to find good homes for 15 pups. But even the best-connected breeder will surely struggle to place all these pups by 8-10 weeks, which means herculean efforts will have to be made to individually socialise those that are left at home. In addition - what about the drain on the dam who has to rear such a huge litter? Sorry, I think it is much kinder to both dam and pups, and far more responsible, no matter how difficult it may be, to cull the litter down to a reasonable size.

    > Did breed rescue refuse to assist her in homing these dogs? if so, what age did she go for help? And why did they refuse? Perhaps had she gone there when the puppies were 10 weeks and it was obvious they were not going to be homed rescue could have. There are enough Dobe rescues around the country, and breed clubs, surely someone could have found 7 homes for well bred Dobes? I


Most breed rescues make it very plain that it is not part of their job to find homes for pups that breeders can't sell.

I appreciate your comment, but that was not the answer to the question I asked JG. Also. I'm not saying the rescue should have taken the puppies, simply assisted her, with the help of the breed club sec and other breed club members, to home this one litter in question. Or, do I take it, breed clubs and its members do not help each other out finding homes? Or was this woman a BYB, which possibly explains why she had no help? What I do agree with, as she had allowed these dogs to form a pack that were fighting, it was probably in the best interests of them and anyone who should come in contact with them that they were pts. It was obviously an ill thought out mating without enough homes booked to start with, shame for the dogs, shame for the vet.
I take it rescue is selective in what it takes under its wing then, even though they complain when another rescue society takes in their breed of dog but won't hand it over.

>I'm not saying the rescue should have taken the puppies, simply assisted her, with the help of the breed club sec and other breed club members, to home this one litter in question. Or, do I take it, breed clubs and its members do not help each other out finding homes?

I don't know how better to explain it - good homes were not forthcoming! She'd advertised in the dog papers and the local papers, she was on the Breed Club puppy list, she even had adverts in local pet shop noticeboards. But at that time there was no demand for dog puppies, and she had several, as did other people in the breed. Sometimes these things happen.

>It was obviously an ill thought out mating without enough homes booked to start with, shame for the dogs, shame for the vet.

That's nonsense. It was a very carefully planned litter for several bitches and a couple of dogs, but you can't plan the sexes! There were too mny dog puppies and not enough bitch puppies being born generally at that time, and you can't manufacture homes out of thin air; nor can you stop time and put puppies into suspended animation so that they stay at a saleable age until the right home turns up.

>I take it rescue is selective in what it takes under its wing then

Of course. Rescue is there to take over when breeders won't accept their responsibiility. This breeder did accept responsibility.

Closing this thread now as a new thread has been started on the off-topic subject discussed here.