I don't know if this is true but certainly seems it. Just received this on e-mail.
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Hi, you must read this and if you are a bloke tell your daughters and wives.

Warning!

TELL ALL FEMALES .. THIS IS NOT NICE!

An important message from the Police -

please pass this along to all the women you know.....
This actually happened a few weeks ago on the M3 Fleet services . It was early evening and a young girl stopped to get petrol. She filled her tank and walked into the store to pay for her petrol. The cashier told her 'Don't pay for your petrol yet.....walk around the store for a while and act as if you're picking up some other things to buy. A man just got into the back of your car. I've called the police and they're on their way'.

When the police arrived, they found the man in the back seat of the girl's car and asked him what he was doing. He replied, he was joining a gang and the initiation to join is to kidnap a woman and bring her back to the gang to be raped by every member of the gang. If the woman was still alive by the time they finish with her then they let her go. According to the police that night, there is a new gang forming here originating from London. The scary part of this is because the guy didn't have a weapon on him. The police could only charge him with trespassing.... He's back on the street and free to try again. Please be aware of what's going on around you and for your family and friends. LADIES you or one of your family and friends could be the next victim.
Please forward this on to everyone you know. Please do not discard this message it is very important that everyone knows what is happening.

Please be careful when leaving your vehicle and make sure it is ALWAYS locked to prevent this from happening to you.

MET POLICE

Subject: POLICE INFORMATION - NOT A JOKE - ACTUAL SAFETY ADVICE

This first bit is mainly for women, but boys please read it and send it onto any women you care about. The second bit is a warning to all of us! Some sound advice for us all as we all sometimes forget to take our common sense with us when we go out. This is from Northants Police..

Women.... In light of the recent kidnapping and now murder of Leigh Mathews I think it is important to read the following info for your own safety.
Things women should know to stay safe: Please Take the time to read these pointers. There may just be one or two you hadn't thought of. After reading this, forward it to someone you care about. It never hurts to be careful in this crazy world we live in..
1. Tip from Tae Kwon Do: The elbow is the strongest point on your body. If you are close enough to use it, do!
2. If a robber asks for your handbag, DO NOT HAND IT TO HIM. Toss it away from you.... he is probably more interested in your handbag than you and he will go for the handbag. RUN LIKE MAD IN THE OTHER DIRECTION!
3. If you are ever thrown into the boot of a car: Kick out the back tail lights and stick your arm through the hole and start waving. The driver won't see you but everybody else will. This has saved lives.

4.Women have a tendency to get into their cars after shopping, eating, working, etc., and just sit (doing their cheque book, or making a list). DON'T DO THIS! A predator could be watching you, and this is the perfect opportunity for him to get in on the passenger side, and attack you. AS SOON AS YOU GET INTO YOUR CAR, LOCK THE DOORS AND LEAVE.

5. A few notes about getting into your car in a car park:

A.) Be aware: look around you, look into your car, at the passenger side floor, and check the back seat.

B.) If you are parked next to a big van, enter your car from the passenger door. Most attackers surprise their victims by pulling them into their vans while the women are attempting to get into their cars.

C.) Look at the car parked on the driver's side of your vehicle, and the passenger side. If a male is sitting alone in the seat nearest your car, you may want to walk back into the shop, or work, and get a guard/policeman to walk you back out. IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY. (And better paranoid than dead.)

6. ALWAYS take the lift instead of the stairs. Stairwells are horrible places to be alone and the perfect crime spot.
7. If the predator has a gun and you are not under his control, ALWAYS RUN!
The predator will only hit you (a running target) 4 in 100 times; and even then, it most likely WILL NOT be a vital organ. RUN!
8. As women, we are always trying to be sympathetic: STOP IT! It may get you raped, or killed. Ted Bundy, the serial killer, was a good- looking, well educated man, who ALWAYS played on the sympathies of unsuspecting women. He walked with a cane, or a limp, and often asked 'for help' into his vehicle or with his vehicle, which is when he abducted his next
victim.

9. Another Safety Point: Someone just told me that her friend heard a crying baby on her porch the night before last, and she called the police because it was late and she thought it was weird. The police told her 'Whatever you do, DO NOT open the door.' The lady then said that it sounded like the baby had crawled near a window, and she was worried that it would
crawl to the street and get run over. The policeman said, 'We already have a unit on the way, whatever you do, DO NOT open the door.' He told her that they think a serial killer has a baby's cry recorded and uses it to coax women out of their homes thinking that someone dropped off a baby. He said they have not verified it, but have had several calls by women saying that they hear babies' cries outside their doors when they're home alone at night.
Please pass this on and DO NOT open the door for a crying baby.

I'd like you to forward this to all the women you know. It may save a life. A candle is not dimmed by lighting another candle. Send this to any woman you know that may need to be reminded that the world we live in has a lot of crazies in it and it's better safe than sorry.
NORTHAMPTONSHIRE POLICE - Visit us at http://www.northants.police.uk/

http://www.snopes.com/horrors/madmen/backseat.asp

And here's the crying baby hoax.

I don't think it matters if this is an urban legend of not, it contains a message of safety and it would be a good idea to read it.

People may well post in good faith and we should not try to ridicule them.

I heard about the "Backseat Gang" a few weeks ago. But I must say that I always lock my car after filling up and going to pay, just out of habit!

again - the safety tips are good and may come in useful

I'm not aware of any intelligence messages from the Police Forces mentioned, but that doesn't mean we should be too complacent ;)

As has already been said, it's not true but does make you think again, although I never leave mine unlocked.

> People may well post in good faith and we should not try to ridicule them.

Yes of course they post in good faith, and nobody's ridiculing them. Pointing out that that something isn't true isn't ridicule, it's reassurance. It saves unnecessary worry for them and other people, because they won't feel the need to email it on.

May be it was the way I read it, the posting of a link with no explanation seemed like a snub to me.

It was the way you read it. Although goodness knows how you assumed it was a snub when the opening line of the OP was "I don't know if this is true"

But I gave the explanation that it was a crying baby hoax.

It was Cheryls post that made me think it was a little short, a few words like you are right to doubt and then the link but may be in my time away from the forum things have changed and I am not up to speed yet.

I thought the link was self-explanatory and didn't need an explanation.  It was posted in good faith to stop people worrying because that's what they are created for and also to stop people feeling the need to pass them on and worrying more people. 

:-) may be something to do with the side of the bed I got out this morning or more likely the fact that I am trying to clear the garage. Have no idea why I should feel sensitive on someone else's' behalf but there you go, I did.

Ive gotten both emails, the original post, and the crying baby one. 

Now, even though they arent true, it does get the message out to be more careful.  Whats wrong with that?  We kinda live in a society, where we think we are safe 100% of the time.  Used to be, that I would think nothing about taking my dogs for a walk later at night.  Now, I know, to be more careful, cos things can and do happen.

And who says, that they can never come true?  Emails can give people ideas, and when they are sent all over, and no one believes that it COULD happen, then we let our guards down.  Thats when people who are sick minded strike, when we are not expecting it to happen.

Keep your guards up, both women and men.  Anything is possible.

I think whats wrong with it is its scare mongering, making us live in fear... a bit of fear makes us wary, we take precautions and stay safe..

Constant fear mongering with made up hoaxs makes us too fearful, stops us living our lives to the full and honestly.. i dont even read such emails any more when they hit my inbox as there are SO many of them and so few are even remotely based in truth.

Do we really want to be scared to open our own front doors?

Im not saying these things dont happen, dangerous stuff DOES happen... but spending every waking minute in paranoia and terror in case theres a man in the back of your car or a boogey man outside the house does no one any good.

Theemx has it exactly. It's sensible to teach caution - locking your car when you go to pay for your petrol is only sensible, because it stops your car being stolen - but to scaremonger and cause paranoia so that people live in fear is a form of terrorism ...

Oh! I do beg your pardon, 'scaremongering'. I put at the top of my post that I wasn't sure it it was true, but I do believe that it is sensible to travel with caution in this day and age and quite honestly with the terrible things that do happen in this world nowadays it wouldn't have surprised me if it had been true.
Makes me realise why I don't post a lot. There you go!!!

Sorry, I meant that the people who originate these things are scaremongers and virtual terrorists; they rely on innocent, well-meaning people to spread the fear. :-(  It's a very sad truth that the fact that so many people are ready to believe them shows how well they've done their work. :-( That's why it's always worth checking on Snopes when anyone receives one of these things to see how long it's been doing the rounds.

Ditto, im angry with the people who purposely create these hoaxes, not those who innocently pass them round.

Someone sat down and made that stuff up, to scare us.

We live in a world which is quite honestly, sick enough already (look at the link elsewhere on here to a news report of a father locking his own daughter in the cellar for 20 odd years...), we don't need people making stuff up!

So next time you get an email like this, just check Snopes.com first.

Whether true or not it was a good deed to post it on here if you thought it may be true. Thats the only remaining decent part of our society these days the fact that there are good people who want to stop bad things happening. ;-)

Of course it was posted in good faith by someone who was passing on a warning that had been passed to them, no doubt in good faith.  Those of us who pointed out that it was a hoax email also did so in good faith to allay people's fears re this particularly scary scenario which as it turns out, is not commonplace at all.

I bet the Met is not best pleased about the email either but this is what makes the creators buzz, the fact that years from starting the emails off they are still circulating and crossing national borders.  Personally, I don't like to give them the satisfaction which is another reason I like to check Snopes before passing them on.

Again, this is not a criticism of the OP in anyway, she was only doing a good deed.

On the point of unlocked cars though, I think it does happen (although I have no idea how often) that cars left unlocked with the keys in the ignition have been stolen or items stolen from the car while the owner pays for the petrol.  I think I saw this on a crimewatch type programme but not sure because it was some time ago (maybe I dreamt it).  Anyway, for that reason alone I always lock my car when I go to pay for the petrol.

Totally agree with you :-)

I agree and  I always lock my car whenever I leave it to pay for petrol. I am more worried about things being nicked than someone attacking me.  But it is worrying all the things you hear in the news, modern life is scary.

Not dreaming, I'v watched this too although can't remember where. Makes sense though, so many people about on forecourts and passengers in cars, leaving the car unlocked leaves it open to have things taken whilst you are preoccupied paying for fuel.

> I agree and  I always lock my car whenever I leave it to pay for petrol.

Ditto
Not least for fear of a repeat of that poor man who had his lovely Border collie stolen.

Do we really want to be scared to open our own front doors?  So True

HOWEVER  I do agree that these hoax emails are just fueling the 'stranger danger' culture we are entering and taking our children with us.  NO DISRESPECT TO OP... We have all done it!
There is a large ground-swell of scientific thinking that says our modern trend to avoid danger at all costs is contributing to our increase in mental health problems and indeed perhaps the serious problem of children/young people suffering from fear and anxiety.
After the war the majority of the population thought that we lived in a good world and were optomistic about the future now there is a disturbingly low percentage who now feel that this is so.

We are living longer, are wealthier, better fed, and our children are no more in danger than they ever were but the perception is that we are all in imminent peril.

I do think after the war people felt freer and more confident after living with the constant fear of being bombed and food becoming more available. Life would seem better. I remember, but can't now remember why, in the 70's being aware of checking the rear seats of my car before a journey to make sure someone wasn't hidden in it, most of the people I knew did the same. Maybe something happened back then.

As to safety of children, I do think its not as safe outside as it was years gone by. So many assaults, shootings and stabbings of young by young reported so often. I don't remember so much violence in ones so young years ago. Not to mention abductions, which may be rare but they do happen, its so easy for people in fast cars these days to get children away. Look at the paedo rings on the net that Police groups are smashing. So many children hurt/killed, some saved but goodness knows how they will survive. I was a child born into the late 50's, yet 'stranger danger' was taught then, not speaking to strangers or accepting lifts or sweets. Have things stayed the same, or is it that now we are so careful with our young they are not being taken or abused. Its a fine line to be trodden giving them their freedom to have an independant fun childhood yet making sure they are safe. how often do we hear when a group of 5-10 yr olds attack animals/other children...'where are the parents, why are children of this age left to wander alone'.

We live in an age of fear of terrorist attacks, not frequent but enough to make us wary, often you can read in the papers how Police have foiled an attack. CCtV is in most places now, you walk through a town/shopping centre etc and you know you are being watched, check into a hotel/road travel lodge etc and you need id, cash will very often not do. There is a sense in all walks of life that, for security, you are being watched. We live in an age where people are afraid to pass a group of 'hoodies' just in case....people take action to prevent their property being damaged or stolen and get killed for it, often right in front of their family.

Cars drive faster, especially along counrty lanes. They are no longer the safe place they were for children to ride their bikes alone or ride ponies. Things have changed in all ways over the past 40 or so years, not always for the better. We must never fear opening our front doors, to live like that is a prison, but we do have to be more aware these days.

The only proven increased risk to children nowadays compared to 'way back then' (I was a small child at the time of the Moors Murders, so it certainly happened) is the much greater volume of traffic. Before motorcars children were reportedly 'stolen by gipsies' - again, abductions happened.

The main difference is that the fear has been allowed to become disproportionate to the risk. The fear of crime is much greater than the real risk of crime. It's that which is making us our own jailers, keeping us in prisons of our own making; the worry is that ourchildren won't be able to assess risk accurately themselves and their lives will be even worse than ours.

Could not agree more JG

The internet paedos are a great risk today, which is why there is so much money and resources put into Police run teams. That wasn't around when we were young. I certainly don't remember groups of youths of ages from 5 upwards running estates and areas of town, making them 'no go' areas for others of different gangs, and the threat of assault or woundings for going in the wrong part. Children and youths carrying knives, guns, and using them in certain cases. Drugs and runners, gangster and gangs it didnt seem so huge a problem years ago. Did people get killed or seriously wounded for trying to chase off kids vandalising someones car?

How do we know there is no greater risk to children now than then? Say 50 yrs ago.....are there any actual Police figures to say our children are as safe now as 50 yrs ago? They say the family unit has broken down, children no longer respect elder figures/teachers/Police/authority figures. Its no longer the fear of the bogey man, its other children. That goes for all ages. Children learn to access risk accurately in the area in which they live, and the times we live in today. Adults do much the same, its an ongoing thing. lets face it, if the streets/hotels/shops/etc were safe from crime of any sort we would have no need for cctv or personal ID. Maybe its the precautions taken due to crime that makes us more wary, rather than the crime itself, or that crime is more weapon drug and alcohol fueled than of yesteryear, whatever the case violent crime is a part of many peoples lives. Who would leave their front doors open today?

> Look at the paedo rings on the net that Police groups are smashing. So many children hurt/killed, some saved but goodness knows how they will survive.

This is not a statistic borne out in fact. We only know about 'Paedo rings' because of the Internet which didn't exist back then but many many families had their 'dirty little secret' and I'm afraid it is just the same today. It is extrodinarily rare for a child to be abused by a stranger, it is almost always someone they are close to and this is how it's always been.
The current trend for 'cotton wool wrapping 'our kids including the obsession with them being not being allowed to walk any where, is creating a generation who can't, as JG says assess their own risk, live through danger and learn from mistakes. If someone is always taking your hand and leading you around traffic, how the hell can you learn?
I work for a councelling charity and am shocked at the latest statistic relayed to us...... more young people ( 11-21) are taking their own lives than are killed on our roads.  Ponder on that one.

> I certainly don't remember groups of youths of ages from 5 upwards running estates and areas of town, making them 'no go' areas for others of different gangs

You didn't live in Glasgow or London then.

No :)..........the safety of the countryside :) Yet, this behaviour is in rural villages and country towns now. Which I would think means its spread out. :(

more young people ( 11-21) are taking their own lives than are killed on our roads.
breakdown of the family unit, extended family, abuse within a family, the fact that there are sites on the net that tell them how to do it? Bullying on the net/mobile phone/schools? Society's views on weight, presure to acheive at schools, youth of today are put under far more stress than a few years ago. Look at the sucides in South Wales....no one can explain it, but there seems an internet link.

The paedo rings are fact, the Police units dealing with it are fact, the people being arrested are fact, the children at risk from being bundled into it are fact. This is happening today, somewhere there will be a child at risk from it NOW. Peados groom children Fact. laws have been put in place to deal with it, again fact. This is different to the 'inner family' abuse which has happened for generations, which is why its good its come out of the closet and children can call help lines, they are taught at school to say no to any touching they don't like, regardless of who does it.

extrodinarily rare for a child to be abused by a stranger Not as rare as that, although more of it is by family/friends/people known to them. Then of course they do get raped and murdered by strangers.

If someone is always taking your hand and leading you around traffic, how the hell can you learn? if you don't take the hand of a young child how can you stop them running out to friends, their ball, orsimply wandering off? You hold them by the hand, teach them to cross roads, teach them road safety by talking to them :) When they are old enough to know better, then they can walk by your side, cross with you.

THings have always happened. Risks have always been there, paedophiles have always existed etc but nowadays the media make it much more public. More now than ever before.
You cant open a paper or watch the news without hearing about something grim. im sure these terrible things have always happened just never with so much publicity. And i cant help think that by putting things like that all over the news/papers etc, it gives people ideas.

> The paedo rings are fact, the Police units dealing with it are fact, the people being arrested are fact, the children at risk from being bundled into it are fact. This is happening today, somewhere there will be a child at risk from it NOW. Peados groom children

Statistically it is far more likely to be their stepdad or uncle than a member of an unknown group. Their family member may be using the internet to facilitate his vice but if the urge is there they will find a way.

If only as much time was spent on teaching children how to deal with danger, failure, highs and lows of life and not getting what they want.
Unfortunately we are into the generation which has parents who seldom face danger, fear everyone, take tranquilisers because they are sad, scared and dissapointed with the world.
You watch a kid after it has conquered a fear, like climbing, or a scarey fairground ride and the rush of adrenaline they get from being scared and then succeeding is immense.

> Look at the sucides in South Wales....no one can explain it, but there seems an internet link.

Probably because they are sitting at a computer screen all day instead of climbing trees, riding bikes and learning to keep themselves safe.They have no concept of what real danger is because they have little experience of life outside their home.Primarily because of their parents over-blown fear of strangers snatching them.

>

Statistically it is far more likely to be their stepdad or uncle than a member of an unknown group.

Stats are one thing, easy to put figures about. I don't know the stats for the number of children harmed by peado rings, do you? But judging by the sheer numbers of pictures found on Pc's on these people that are traced and arrested, there are a fair few. After all, if this was not a real problem teams of Police wouldn't be formed totally to tract these sickos, and laws would not have been put through to give criminal offences relating to grooming and peodo activities on the net, so that must say something in itself.

If only as much time was spent on teaching children how to deal with danger, failure, highs and lows of life and not getting what they want.

Who says that children don't have this alongside responsible parents looking out for their safety, and taking control of their offspring? because a Parent won't let a 10 yr old roam the streets, does not follow that the child does nothing more than sit at home. Its doing things together out and about, riding bikes, activity centres, holidays etc, all the things you have mentioned, parents having fun with the children. A close family share the highs and lows, they share parenting among the extended family, yet they still look out for each other. Maybe they don't want their children joining the feral children, those that have very little parent intervention and left to roam. I wonder where the young person sucide rate is located....and with what type of family.......is it the family that take no responsibility for their kids, let them roam, are they from the parents that allow their teens out at night till god knows what time either knowing or not being bothered if they are binge drinking, taking drugs, underage sex, whatever? Or do you consider this is ok, the kids will learn to drink in moderation, will learn to use condoms (after one of their underage girls gets pregnant) will learn to smoke less?

Unfortunately we are into the generation which has parents who seldom face danger, fear everyone, take tranquilisers because they are sad, scared and dissapointed with the world

I hardly think this is a constructive comment for anyone who is fighting a depressive illness. :(

I have seen parents that enjoy activities with their kids, teach them right from wrong, and hey...how to be safe! Would you let a child put its hand in the fire to learn its hot and will burn? Do you let a child play with matches to find out what the danger is? Would you let a 5 yr old climb a 6ft tree? I don't see activity centres letting kids go on the high wire, zip wire, or climbing walls/mountains without safety gear and ropes....or ride mountain bikes without protective gear, or ride ponies unsupervised without hard hats and sensible footwear.

Probably because they are sitting at a computer screen all day instead of climbing trees, riding bikes and learning to keep themselves safe.They have no concept of what real danger is because they have little experience of life outside their home.Primarily because of their parents over-blown fear of strangers snatching them.

These are older teens, no one knows whay they are doing this, or why it is contained in a small area. But its a very sweeping comment you make, which barely scratches the surface of why people, youth or old, become so depressed they self harm, commit sucide etc.

> I hardly think this is a constructive comment for anyone who is fighting a depressive illness.

Oh I dont feel guilty about saying that I'm afraid....
I actually do something constructive week in week out for some of these people. Feeling sorry for them is no help at all. Empathy and support are far more valuable tools than sympathy.

> I don't see activity centres letting kids go on the high wire, zip wire, or climbing walls/mountains without safety gear and ropes....or ride mountain bikes without protective gear, or ride ponies unsupervised without hard hats and sensible footwear.

No there insurers would not allow it I'm afraid. The real climbers, canoeists sailors ect are pulling their hair out at how little kids are allowed to do these days....SOLELY due to litigation.

>

On that point I will bow out of this conversation, however stimulating it has been .
Without being able to send you an entire collection of modern academic papers on the subject it will only decend into mistaken assumptions, not least my condoning allowing  little children sticking their hands in the fire or 10year olds roaming the streets committing violent crime.

Balance and moderation by sensible parents was all I ( and many learned scholars) suggest.
Life should be about the highs and lows and being able to recognise ( and cope with) them when they occur.

Nite..... nice talking to you calmstorm

>Parent won't let a 10 yr old roam the streets, does not follow that the child does nothing more than sit at home. Its doing things together out and about, riding bikes, activity centres, holidays etc, all the things you have mentioned, parents having fun with the children.

That's all well and good, and certainly is a valuable part of life, but no more important than children being away from adults and deciding their own games without adult input and influence. It's the ability to make their own decisions, all by themselves, and the freedom to make their own mistakes and learn from them, that enables a child to develop mentally. Once they're into double figures then allowing this learning process becomes vital.

If you really do work with people of a depressive nature, you wouldnt talk of them in such a distainful manner. For someone who is depressed asking for help is the most difficult thing. I have friends who treat people for these conditions, they are far more tackful than you, in fact they would never have made the reference to tablets and depression as you have. :(

No there insurers would not allow it I'm afraid. The real climbers, canoeists sailors ect are pulling their hair out at how little kids are allowed to do these days....SOLELY due to litigation.

Really. So you are telling me they don't wear safety equipment etc themselves? Especially as beginers This beggers belief. :(

Mistaken assumptions. Well, if a child has to experience something to realise the danger...and not be guided by its parents....then a fall out of a 6f tree for a 5yr old would be ok then, never mind the broken back. or just maybe we as parents should have been controling the situation.


Balance and moderation by sensible parents was all I ( and many learned scholars) suggest.
Life should be about the highs and lows and being able to recognise ( and cope with) them when they occur.

On this we agree, and as caring parents we teach our child this not by whats written in text books, or the 'latest finding' or by 'stats' but by watching how our child is developing, with regard to age as well as ability. Also with regard to the area we live in. Parents, and the extended family, teach as a whole how the child learns about all things in life. Set the boundaries and keep them safe, healthy and happy. 

and many learned scholars
Are you?

> Look at the sucides in South Wales....no one can explain it, but there seems an internet link.

Probably because they are sitting at a computer screen all day instead of climbing trees, riding bikes and learning to keep themselves safe.They have no concept of what real danger is because they have little experience of life outside their home.Primarily because of their parents over-blown fear of strangers snatching them.

In reply to Toolz re. the above comment.  I live in the area where all the suicides of the young people you mentioned occured and although I did not know any of them personally, I can assure you that the majority of the youngsters involved were... a) too old to be out riding bikes or climbing trees and... b) Were certainly not lacking in experience of the outside world.  Several of them came from happy homes and were holding down apprenticeships or responsible jobs.  I hope that none of their heartbroken parents read your post.

>Statistically it is far more likely to be their stepdad or uncle than a member of an unknown group. Their family member may be using the internet to facilitate his vice but if the urge is there they will find a way.

>If only as much time was spent on teaching children how to deal with danger, failure, highs and lows of life and not getting what they want.

>Unfortunately we are into the generation which has parents who seldom face danger, fear everyone, take tranquilisers because they are sad, scared and dissapointed with the world.

I agree with this.  I can see it all the time but I hadn't really noticed it until my own children were at junior school and the Head and I clashed over him not allowing competitive sports during PE or on sports day.  I questioned why and he told me that competitive sports meant that some children were destined to fail.  Unfortunately, we can't all be good at sports and indeed some children will have to acknowledge this as all children will also have to acknowledge that life is competitive and we have to take the disappointments as well as triumphs, stand up and play to our strengths.  A few years on and he banned a chasing game invented by the children that involved large numbers of children because he thought it was dangerous to younger children, even though those he was concerned about had their own sectioned off part of the playground.  Seemed to overlook the fact that the game, whilst competitive, was inclusive of large numbers of children who would otherwise not be included in more exclusive groups' play.  Missed opportunity me thinks.

Then he banned football because the ball had hit someone in the face.  Nevermind that the school had a field that the children weren't allowed to play on because it meant they walked mud into the school (baffling excuse seeing as the children were not allowed to wear outdoor shoes indoors anyway)

Then when I went to see him about a bullying incident he described the playground like a warzone.  I actually told him that he made it sound like downtown LA to which he said it was reminiscent of that.  I felt totally exasperated and suggested that if the children were allowed to be children, to play competitive games, to get muddy and generally allowed to expel pent up energy there wouldn't be the stress and violence on the playground.  He then mentioned that these days schools had to be careful for fear of being accused of negligence by parents and the potential legalities that might follow.

Can you see where I'm going with this?

>Probably because they are sitting at a computer screen all day instead of climbing trees, riding bikes and learning to keep themselves safe.They have no concept of what real danger is because they have little experience of life outside their home.Primarily because of their parents over-blown fear of strangers snatching them.

Can relate to this too.  When we moved it was 2 miles from my son's junior school and consequently most of his friends who he played out with every day.  He went from being an outdoors kid to a TV and games console kid.  Believe me I agonised over what to do.  I didn't want him stuck in front of TV but he didn't have any friends locally yet that he could call on.  So, I allowed him to ride his bike to our old street so that he could continue his outdoor play with his friends.  We are lucky here as we have an excellent cycle track system, nevertheless, I still considered him more at risk from traffic than paedos.  I honestly believe that his mental wellbeing was in far more danger from being isolated than his physical wellbeing from all the perceived dangers that children are 'protected' from.

You know my son is nearly 18 and I worry about him even more now because regardless of the media coverage regarding paedophiles I know that he is now in the most vulnerable age group at risk from violent crime.  We are led to believe that much younger children and old ladies are most at risk but fact is it is males between the ages of 16 and 24, what should I do?

There are paedophiles about, of course there are, there always has been.  We have to educate our children how to stay safe without terrifying the living daylights out of them.  Afterall if we don't teach children how to look after themselves what would happen if the child is faced with a paedophile in a safe environment like school, clubs and in their own homes?  Unfortunately, it is a sad fact that the majority of sexually abused kids are abused by someone they know, often relatives and the percentage is somewhere in the 70s the last time I checked.  These were police figures which are backed up by a children's organisation.

I believe the most important time is the first formative years. Thats when parents come into play, we teach them so much that carries on with them throughout their lives and that influences all they do. It depends on the child, your area, many other circumstances than simply an age as to how you chose to let them find their own feet. But I am a firm believer in the family bond and that we have a great responsibility when we have children to ensure they have a safe, well balanced upbringing where we first teach them, then lead them, then let them spread their wings a bit, and a bit more, till next thing you know its almost time for them to leave school. And during all this time they will have learned to make decisions (didn't we teach them this ) learnt to problem solve (we teach them this too) spent time away from us at various camps such as Pony Club, childrens activity holidays, etc,  made mistakes and learnt how to cope with the ups and downs of life (with us there or simply knowing we are there if they need us) making for a secure, confident individual.

if you live in an area with broken glass, remains of drug equip etc, and needles around on the ground, druggies/alkies using the sand pits and slides as a urinal, dog mess everywhere, where would you consider it safe to allow a 10 yr old to play with their friends alone? When they are 12 and 14, are you happy to let them hang around these places of an evening, or even during the day? Maybe this is why some mums are finding life so hard to cope with, they keep their kids close because of the real danger that is around them. Unless someone has lived like this they don't know the full strain of it.

There are paedophiles about, of course there are, there always has been.  We have to educate our children how to stay safe without terrifying the living daylights out of them.  Afterall if we don't teach children how to look after themselves what would happen if the child is faced with a paedophile in a safe environment like school, clubs and in their own homes?  Unfortunately, it is a sad fact that the majority of sexually abused kids are abused by someone they know, often relatives and the percentage is somewhere in the 70s the last time I checked.

Totally agree with you, education is the key, and letting them know how to deal with the sickos in our society whoever they may be, but without making them look round every bush. Making sure they stay safe on the net, sickos are out there, they 'groom' children, which is why new offences were made to cover it. Girls and boys can be tempted to meet up with the image they see on the screen, they prey on the type of child who they can judge to be  easily led and can keep secrets.

We are lucky here as we have an excellent cycle track system, nevertheless, I still considered him more at risk from traffic than paedos.  I honestly believe that his mental wellbeing was in far more danger from being isolated than his physical wellbeing from all the perceived dangers that children are 'protected' from.

You knew the capabilities of your child, you were happy that the area and the route he was traveling on was safe. You made the decision and it was the right one for you. Another mum may have felt eaiser going with him and staying at a friends for an hour whilst the children played outside. Or, she may have let him go back occasionally so as not to lose contact, 2 miles is not far, and then had his friends round her house playing outside, the 'new' other kids would soon have wondered over to join in..different routes for different people.

You know my son is nearly 18 and I worry about him even more now because regardless of the media coverage regarding paedophiles I know that he is now in the most vulnerable age group at risk from violent crime.  We are led to believe that much younger children and old ladies are most at risk but fact is it is males between the ages of 16 and 24, what should I do?

The paedo rings on the net tend to prefer a much younger age of child...at 18 its not so much a sick minded child molester but a rapist/sex offender. remember media cover is about something that has happened, the court cases are for offences that have been committed. They are not fantasy and sometimes things need to be brought to the publics attention. Yes, your son is more likely to be assaulted when out, than raped, its difficult for teens/young adults to go anywhere today without the 'yob culture'. I worry my socks off too, but just hope and pray he remembers all he has learned, takes care and keeps away from trouble.

i was sitting at a remote train station one winter night waiting to pick up my boyfriend coming home from a works night out, and a man tried to get into my car via the passenger door.( i was 21 at the time) thankfully i always lock my doors, habit from usually having the dog in the back and fearful of him being stolen. he was banging my window and pulling on the handle, it was terrifying, i started up the engine and began reversing fast and he walked away, and left the car park. i sat with my engine running and watching out of all windows until train arrived so it is always good to be cautious.

Or any city I think .. I watched a police show last night in Hull-Humberside. I was speechless. 11 year old kids stealing cars and driving up and down streets where ALL the houses were boarded up.    I think must be on another planet at times when I see these neighbourhoods in such a state.

I dont think that it hurts to be careful whether you are male or female, I have had quite a few scary moments in my life, One was when I had finished working a late shift, I was walking home on the estate that I used to on at about 9pm, a man began walking beside me asking questions and I politely told him I was married and not interested etc. When i reached the flats where I lived this man pushed his way in and was trying to touch/kiss me. this went on for a good few minutes and it was only a neighbour coming in the main enterance that made him run off. at the time I had no mobile phone, my husband wasnt in so it was very scary.

> If you really do work with people of a depressive nature, you wouldnt talk of them in such a distainful manner. For someone who is depressed asking for help is the most difficult thing. I have friends who treat people for these conditions, they are far more tackful than you, in fact they would never have made the reference to tablets and depression as you have. :-(
>

I agree.
I've suffered from depression and taken anti-depresants. I didn't feel sorry for myself or feel I needed a pill to make me feel better, I felt like I didn't deserve to live and didn't warrent being helped I didn't have enough self-worth to feel pity for myself - I felt pity for those who had to live with a worthless thing like me, it was only with a lot of support & persuasion from family & the dr (and family taking me to the dr) that I actually agreed to take the pills. I never told anybody how I felt, I lived for months feeling like that, it wasn't untill my OH had enough of my wierd behaviour, he started to quizz me, if he had told me to stop feeling sorry for myself and that he thought I was weak and simply unable to deal with the ups & downs of life, then I probably would have kept quiet & killed myself. You don't have to be going through a rough patch of life to get depression, a depressed mind can take the simplest of things and blow it out of perspective untill it is a major issue.

Safety equiptment used in sports, may well be because of the insurance companies refusing to insure without it, but why is that???  -because without the equipment far to many people injure thierselfs (and therefore hold the place responsible), if there were no injuries without the safety equipment there were be no insurance companies insisting on it!

It is good to be aware of the dangers that are everywhere it is how we protect ourselfs. Todays society may not be anymore dangerous than that of times gone by (traffic being an exeption), but with the media & internet access we are all more aware of the dangers that are out there and it can only do us good to be aware. Things like locking your car doors are a simple thing to do, and does not involve hiding away from the world, but may avoid a dangerous situation. The original post may have been a sfake, but if it makes people give a little thought to staying safe it can't be bad.

>Safety equiptment used in sports, may well be because of the insurance companies refusing to insure without it, but why is that???  -because without the equipment far to many people injure thierselfs (and therefore hold the place responsible), if there were no injuries without the safety equipment there were be no insurance companies insisting on it!

That's the devil, isn't it - a dreadful tendency to litigation and a culture of blame has permeated our society. Everything bad is always 'someone else's fault' - few people are prepared to accept responsibility for their own actions.

I really can't understand the objection to safety equipment! Having spent my early life with horses I know just how important the very basics are....correct footwear and a good well fitting hard hat. If an establishment let anyone ride without these basic things they deserve to be shot, regardless of any insurance or 'blame'. The same has to go for the other outdoor sports, mountain biking (hand, head, feet, elbows) quad biking (knowing how these can tip and can be very dangerous even to experienced users) canooing, rock climbing...the list is endless. When you start out with any sport, or extreem sports, you need to learn it first and safety nets/equipment/well trained and qualified instructors form part of all this.

That's the devil, isn't it - a dreadful tendency to litigation and a culture of blame has permeated our society. Everything bad is always 'someone else's fault' - few people are prepared to accept responsibility for their own actions.

How can you be expected to take responsibility for your own actions when you are unaware of what the result of those actions could be, and therefore rely on the establishment you are attending to make you aware, and provide the correct equipment or insist you have it with you when you start?